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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 5:27:16 GMT
My issue with Rey is the fact that instead of just being her own character, Disney decided that not only did she have to have some special connection to the of cast but she had to be the new Luke/Anakin Skywalker. I feel like doing that to her hurt her character more than help it. Will it have stopped the incest from hating her and calling her a Mary Sue or whatever? Of course not. Pretty much any modern female character is doomed to be hated for something completely stupid. But I really wish they took a more original approach with the character. Granted this is Star Wars and Disney, so originally is hard to come by from them, buy I can't help but feel like she was wasted potential. Same with Poe and Finn. Don't even get me started on hosting Finn was treated. Agreed. Basically all the characters sucked in the ST. Rey certainly wasn’t the only one. The treatment of Finn was horrendous. The whole thing was a train wreck. They weren't going to make the Sequels be about the OT cast anymore, their time was done. Certain folks need to accept that.
Now admittedly, the Sequels were off to a bad start thanks to the mess Lucas left behind.
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 10, 2023 16:44:06 GMT
Agreed. Basically all the characters sucked in the ST. Rey certainly wasn’t the only one. The treatment of Finn was horrendous. The whole thing was a train wreck. They weren't going to make the Sequels be about the OT cast anymore, their time was done. Certain folks need to accept that.
Now admittedly, the Sequels were off to a bad start thanks to the mess Lucas left behind.
Lucas made bad films, but he didn’t break all the pieces, light them on fire and say ‘good luck with that, assholes’ like Rian Johnson did.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 10, 2023 18:15:56 GMT
Agreed. Basically all the characters sucked in the ST. Rey certainly wasn’t the only one. The treatment of Finn was horrendous. The whole thing was a train wreck. They weren't going to make the Sequels be about the OT cast anymore, their time was done. Certain folks need to accept that.
Now admittedly, the Sequels were off to a bad start thanks to the mess Lucas left behind.
What mess? The original trilogy ended with the Empire defeated and Anakin redeemed. Disney didn't even have to do a continuation of the original trilogy. They only did it because nostalgia sells.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2023 18:21:16 GMT
Agreed. Basically all the characters sucked in the ST. Rey certainly wasn’t the only one. The treatment of Finn was horrendous. The whole thing was a train wreck. They weren't going to make the Sequels be about the OT cast anymore, their time was done. Certain folks need to accept that.
What folks? Not me. I never expected the sequels to be completely about the original characters. Why do you keep replying to me if you’re going to argue with points I didn’t make?
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 18:33:27 GMT
They weren't going to make the Sequels be about the OT cast anymore, their time was done. Certain folks need to accept that.
Now admittedly, the Sequels were off to a bad start thanks to the mess Lucas left behind.
Lucas made bad films, but he didn’t break all the pieces, light them on fire and say ‘good luck with that, assholes’ like Rian Johnson did. Funny, if the internet had been around in 1980 that's exactly what "fans" would have said about Empire Strikes Back.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 18:35:43 GMT
They weren't going to make the Sequels be about the OT cast anymore, their time was done. Certain folks need to accept that.
Now admittedly, the Sequels were off to a bad start thanks to the mess Lucas left behind.
What mess? The original trilogy ended with the Empire defeated and Anakin redeemed. Disney didn't even have to do a continuation of the original trilogy. They only did it because nostalgia sells. Lucas eliminated all the Darksiders and then later said that the Prophecy had been fulfilled meaning the Dark Side was gone forever, and he got rid of the Empire meaning they could be reused either. This means that the Sequels couldn't use the one true enemy of Star Wars (Darksiders) nor Imperial Remnants. The next logical step would be for the new enemy to be aliens, but then he did the Prequels which made the idea of Enemy Aliens look ridiculous. As well as turn the audience off to the idea about stories about a restored Republic and Jedi Order, seeing how the Prequels made those both look like bad ideas too.
So he robbed the Sequels of anything they could've used for a new story.
If Star Wars had been done more like the MCU, where it's clearly not just about one particular hero and there is no one single villain, then the Sequels would've had more to work with.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 18:36:53 GMT
They weren't going to make the Sequels be about the OT cast anymore, their time was done. Certain folks need to accept that.
What folks? Not me. I never expected the sequels to be completely about the original characters. Why do you keep replying to me if you’re going to argue with points I didn’t make? The OT fanbase made it perfectly clear with their "adapt the Novels!" approach, because the Novels were all about the OT cast and everyone new was in their shadow. Meaning they'd have immediately rejected the Sequels if they'd been only about new characters.
All the other damage from ROTJ and the Prequels further limited what the Sequels could do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2023 18:44:58 GMT
What folks? Not me. I never expected the sequels to be completely about the original characters. Why do you keep replying to me if you’re going to argue with points I didn’t make? The OT fanbase made it perfectly clear with their "adapt the Novels!" approach, because the Novels were all about the OT cast and everyone new was in their shadow. Meaning they'd have immediately rejected the Sequels if they'd been only about new characters.
All the other damage from ROTJ and the Prequels further limited what the Sequels could do.
So basically you think every single OT fan thinks and feels the exact same way and that’s why you pull out these stock arguments that aren’t relevant.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 10, 2023 18:49:03 GMT
To be fair, I actually think The Force Awakens showed promise. Yeah Rey was a Mary Sue but it's not like she didn't have redeeming qualities. She had a mysterious background that could've been explored further for her character arc, Finn was in an interesting predicament that could have also turned into a great arc, the two had a foreshadowing of a relationship that could have proven interesting, Solo and Leia came back, people were eagerly awaiting Luke's return, people wanted to know more about who the heck Snoke was, Captain Phasma and Poe Dameron were shaping up to be pretty intriguing characters to be developed later on... etc.
It wasn't a great movie by any means but it laid down a lot of good elements that looked like they would develop into a great trilogy. Then The Last Jedi came in and turned everything to shit. It wouldn't have mattered how skilled the team was for The Rise of Skywalker, there was no way that movie could undo the absolute bloodbath caused by TLJ.
So we ended up with one promising movie, one absolute disaster, and one pathetic attempt at course-correction.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 10, 2023 19:05:18 GMT
What mess? The original trilogy ended with the Empire defeated and Anakin redeemed. Disney didn't even have to do a continuation of the original trilogy. They only did it because nostalgia sells. Lucas eliminated all the Darksiders and then later said that the Prophecy had been fulfilled meaning the Dark Side was gone forever, and he got rid of the Empire meaning they could be reused either. This means that the Sequels couldn't use the one true enemy of Star Wars (Darksiders) nor Imperial Remnants. The next logical step would be for the new enemy to be aliens, but then he did the Prequels which made the idea of Enemy Aliens look ridiculous. As well as turn the audience off to the idea about stories about a restored Republic and Jedi Order, seeing how the Prequels made those both look like bad ideas too.
So he robbed the Sequels of anything they could've used for a new story.
If Star Wars had been done more like the MCU, where it's clearly not just about one particular hero and there is no one single villain, then the Sequels would've had more to work with.
But that's my point, the story was wrapped up. There was no reason to do a continuation of Return of the Jedi outside of milking nostalgia by bringing back the original cast again. They could have done an entire new trilogy that told a new story with a new cast of characters. Instead we were once again forced to go through another trilogy about the Skywalker's. You know, instead of actually expanding the Star Wars universe that many people were hoping that Disney would do. Now we're stuck with getting shows about Obi-Wan and Boba Fett. And getting movies like Han getting his last name or the Suicide Squad- er I mean a group of Misfits stealing Death Star plans.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 19:16:45 GMT
The OT fanbase made it perfectly clear with their "adapt the Novels!" approach, because the Novels were all about the OT cast and everyone new was in their shadow. Meaning they'd have immediately rejected the Sequels if they'd been only about new characters.
All the other damage from ROTJ and the Prequels further limited what the Sequels could do.
So basically you think every single OT fan thinks and feels the exact same way and that’s why you pull out these stock arguments that aren’t relevant. The way they've been acting since 2014 says it all.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 19:20:22 GMT
Lucas eliminated all the Darksiders and then later said that the Prophecy had been fulfilled meaning the Dark Side was gone forever, and he got rid of the Empire meaning they could be reused either. This means that the Sequels couldn't use the one true enemy of Star Wars (Darksiders) nor Imperial Remnants. The next logical step would be for the new enemy to be aliens, but then he did the Prequels which made the idea of Enemy Aliens look ridiculous. As well as turn the audience off to the idea about stories about a restored Republic and Jedi Order, seeing how the Prequels made those both look like bad ideas too.
So he robbed the Sequels of anything they could've used for a new story.
If Star Wars had been done more like the MCU, where it's clearly not just about one particular hero and there is no one single villain, then the Sequels would've had more to work with.
But that's my point, the story was wrapped up. There was no reason to do a continuation of Return of the Jedi outside of milking nostalgia by bringing back the original cast again. They could have done an entire new trilogy that told a new story with a new cast of characters. Instead we were once again forced to go through another trilogy about the Skywalker's. You know, instead of actually expanding the Star Wars universe that many people were hoping that Disney would do. Now we're stuck with getting shows about Obi-Wan and Boba Fett. And getting movies like Han getting his last name or the Suicide Squad- er I mean a group of Misfits stealing Death Star plans. The time to expand the universe was back during the OT and then the PT, both failed to do so meaning the ST had nothing to work with. ROTJ wrapped things too well and left nothing to work with for ANY kind of future story, with or without the OT cast.
A new trilogy about new characters would've been DOA, because like I said ROTJ's ending and then later stuff from the Prequels meant that they couldn't do a new story about new Darksiders in the future or an Alien invasion from another Galaxy in the future. So there was nowhere to make a new villain from.
Plus, the OT fans' minds had polluted by the EU Novels which made them think that the fate of the SW Universe relied on the Skywalkers and their descendants.
If Star Wars had been done more like the MCU, wherein it's made clear that not everything was about just one family and there were different villains and universe expansion with every story, then the Sequels would've had more to build from. As it was, there was nothing.
Frankly, Disney should had decanonized the Prequels as soon as they started removing stuff.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 19:22:29 GMT
To be fair, I actually think The Force Awakens showed promise. Yeah Rey was a Mary Sue but it's not like she didn't have redeeming qualities. She had a mysterious background that could've been explored further for her character arc, Finn was in an interesting predicament that could have also turned into a great arc, the two had a foreshadowing of a relationship that could have proven interesting, Solo and Leia came back, people were eagerly awaiting Luke's return, people wanted to know more about who the heck Snoke was, Captain Phasma and Poe Dameron were shaping up to be pretty intriguing characters to be developed later on... etc. It wasn't a great movie by any means but it laid down a lot of good elements that looked like they would develop into a great trilogy. Then The Last Jedi came in and turned everything to shit. It wouldn't have mattered how skilled the team was for The Rise of Skywalker, there was no way that movie could undo the absolute bloodbath caused by TLJ. So we ended up with one promising movie, one absolute disaster, and one pathetic attempt at course-correction. Rey's no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman.
TLJ was no more a disaster than ESB was.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 10, 2023 19:43:54 GMT
But that's my point, the story was wrapped up. There was no reason to do a continuation of Return of the Jedi outside of milking nostalgia by bringing back the original cast again. They could have done an entire new trilogy that told a new story with a new cast of characters. Instead we were once again forced to go through another trilogy about the Skywalker's. You know, instead of actually expanding the Star Wars universe that many people were hoping that Disney would do. Now we're stuck with getting shows about Obi-Wan and Boba Fett. And getting movies like Han getting his last name or the Suicide Squad- er I mean a group of Misfits stealing Death Star plans. The time to expand the universe was back during the OT and then the PT, both failed to do so meaning the ST had nothing to work with. ROTJ wrapped things too well and left nothing to work with for ANY kind of future story, with or without the OT cast.
A new trilogy about new characters would've been DOA, because like I said ROTJ's ending and then later stuff from the Prequels meant that they couldn't do a new story about new Darksiders in the future or an Alien invasion from another Galaxy in the future. So there was nowhere to make a new villain from.
Plus, the OT fans' minds had polluted by the EU Novels which made them think that the fate of the SW Universe relied on the Skywalkers and their descendants. If Star Wars had been done more like the MCU, wherein it's made clear that not everything was about just one family and there were different villains and universe expansion with every story, then the Sequels would've had more to build from. As it was, there was nothing. Frankly, Disney should had decanonized the Prequels as soon as they started removing stuff.
Again the point was we didn't need a sequel trilogy. It's Star Wars, people would go see it regardless. Especially since it would have been over a decade since the last release. You don't need the Empire as a threat anymore and there could still be Darksiders. Disney already made a new one with Kylo Ren for TFA. Hell the Extended universe that you hated kept doing new Darksiders regardless of what Lucas has said in the past. There was absolutely no reason why Disney couldn't take a new creative direction with the franchise outside of playing it safe and catering to the people that grew up with the original trilogy. They could have still gone the "MCU" route with Star Wars with a new trilogy. Instead we were once again forced to sit through the same fucking skywalker shit for the third fucking trilogy because Disney didn't want to hire an actual creative team. The only mistake Lucas ever made was selling Star Wars instead of just locking it away in a vault.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 10, 2023 19:54:50 GMT
The time to expand the universe was back during the OT and then the PT, both failed to do so meaning the ST had nothing to work with. ROTJ wrapped things too well and left nothing to work with for ANY kind of future story, with or without the OT cast.
A new trilogy about new characters would've been DOA, because like I said ROTJ's ending and then later stuff from the Prequels meant that they couldn't do a new story about new Darksiders in the future or an Alien invasion from another Galaxy in the future. So there was nowhere to make a new villain from.
Plus, the OT fans' minds had polluted by the EU Novels which made them think that the fate of the SW Universe relied on the Skywalkers and their descendants. If Star Wars had been done more like the MCU, wherein it's made clear that not everything was about just one family and there were different villains and universe expansion with every story, then the Sequels would've had more to build from. As it was, there was nothing. Frankly, Disney should had decanonized the Prequels as soon as they started removing stuff.
Again the point was we didn't need a sequel trilogy. It's Star Wars, people would go see it regardless. Especially since it would have been over a decade since the last release. You don't need the Empire as a threat anymore and there could still be Darksiders. Disney already made a new one with Kylo Ren for TFA. Hell the Extended universe that you hated kept doing new Darksiders regardless of what Lucas has said in the past. There was absolutely no reason why Disney couldn't take a new creative direction with the franchise outside of playing it safe and catering to the people that grew up with the original trilogy. They could have still gone the "MCU" route with Star Wars with a new trilogy. Instead we were once again forced to sit through the same fucking skywalker shit for the third fucking trilogy because Disney didn't want to hire an actual creative team. The only mistake Lucas ever made was selling Star Wars instead of just locking it away in a vault. Rogue One is a good example of this. That was a fairly successful movie, both in box office and critical reception. Probably would have been far better had they spun off a series based on that movie isntead.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2023 20:04:24 GMT
So basically you think every single OT fan thinks and feels the exact same way and that’s why you pull out these stock arguments that aren’t relevant. The way they've been acting since 2014 says it all. So if all OT fans are, by definition, sequel haters then that means that, by definition, all ST fans are not fans of the OT. Very interesting. Seems super odd to be a fan of a sequel trilogy when you disliked the original movies.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 10, 2023 21:00:03 GMT
To be fair, I actually think The Force Awakens showed promise. Yeah Rey was a Mary Sue but it's not like she didn't have redeeming qualities. She had a mysterious background that could've been explored further for her character arc, Finn was in an interesting predicament that could have also turned into a great arc, the two had a foreshadowing of a relationship that could have proven interesting, Solo and Leia came back, people were eagerly awaiting Luke's return, people wanted to know more about who the heck Snoke was, Captain Phasma and Poe Dameron were shaping up to be pretty intriguing characters to be developed later on... etc. It wasn't a great movie by any means but it laid down a lot of good elements that looked like they would develop into a great trilogy. Then The Last Jedi came in and turned everything to shit. It wouldn't have mattered how skilled the team was for The Rise of Skywalker, there was no way that movie could undo the absolute bloodbath caused by TLJ. So we ended up with one promising movie, one absolute disaster, and one pathetic attempt at course-correction. Rey's no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman.
TLJ was no more a disaster than ESB was.
If Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman, then that does not devalue the argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, and also creates a new discussion on whether or not Wonder Woman (which iteration if I may ask? Carter? Gadot? The Golden Age? The Silver Age? The New 52? Rebirth? The DC Animated Universe? The Injustice video game series? etc.) The Last Jedi was no more a disaster than the Empire Strikes Back in what way? In terms of storytelling or reception? The quality of storytelling is, mostly, subjective. Objectively speaking however, The Empire Strikes Back did not create disinterest in the Star Wars brand and was still a pretty well-received entry. This was also when the intellectual property was still pretty young and the universe hadn't been that explored, The Last Jedi on the other hand was made when the brand had decades worth of media that cemented the very idea of who the core cast of characters were, like Luke Skywalker.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 21:18:55 GMT
The time to expand the universe was back during the OT and then the PT, both failed to do so meaning the ST had nothing to work with. ROTJ wrapped things too well and left nothing to work with for ANY kind of future story, with or without the OT cast.
A new trilogy about new characters would've been DOA, because like I said ROTJ's ending and then later stuff from the Prequels meant that they couldn't do a new story about new Darksiders in the future or an Alien invasion from another Galaxy in the future. So there was nowhere to make a new villain from.
Plus, the OT fans' minds had polluted by the EU Novels which made them think that the fate of the SW Universe relied on the Skywalkers and their descendants. If Star Wars had been done more like the MCU, wherein it's made clear that not everything was about just one family and there were different villains and universe expansion with every story, then the Sequels would've had more to build from. As it was, there was nothing. Frankly, Disney should had decanonized the Prequels as soon as they started removing stuff.
Again the point was we didn't need a sequel trilogy. It's Star Wars, people would go see it regardless. Especially since it would have been over a decade since the last release. You don't need the Empire as a threat anymore and there could still be Darksiders. Disney already made a new one with Kylo Ren for TFA. Hell the Extended universe that you hated kept doing new Darksiders regardless of what Lucas has said in the past. There was absolutely no reason why Disney couldn't take a new creative direction with the franchise outside of playing it safe and catering to the people that grew up with the original trilogy. They could have still gone the "MCU" route with Star Wars with a new trilogy. Instead we were once again forced to sit through the same fucking skywalker shit for the third fucking trilogy because Disney didn't want to hire an actual creative team. The only mistake Lucas ever made was selling Star Wars instead of just locking it away in a vault. Yes, and thanks to Lucas "Star Wars" has become synonymous with "Skywalker Family". If he himself had tried to do non-Skywalker stories and introduced new characters when he had the time, it would be different but he didn't. He also prevented the EU writers from doing the same.
Yes and Kylo was seen as a violation of "The Prophecy" storyline from the Prequels. Meaning no more Darksiders, ever.
That the EU could do it is double standards.
Because the last time anyone tried something outside the norm, we got the Prequels.
It was too late to do it by then, ROTJ had already robbed them of what they needed to expand.
Blame Lucas, he said that the Skywalkers are what makes Star Wars, Star Wars. He squandered every chance there was to move beyond them.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 21:19:41 GMT
Again the point was we didn't need a sequel trilogy. It's Star Wars, people would go see it regardless. Especially since it would have been over a decade since the last release. You don't need the Empire as a threat anymore and there could still be Darksiders. Disney already made a new one with Kylo Ren for TFA. Hell the Extended universe that you hated kept doing new Darksiders regardless of what Lucas has said in the past. There was absolutely no reason why Disney couldn't take a new creative direction with the franchise outside of playing it safe and catering to the people that grew up with the original trilogy. They could have still gone the "MCU" route with Star Wars with a new trilogy. Instead we were once again forced to sit through the same fucking skywalker shit for the third fucking trilogy because Disney didn't want to hire an actual creative team. The only mistake Lucas ever made was selling Star Wars instead of just locking it away in a vault. Rogue One is a good example of this. That was a fairly successful movie, both in box office and critical reception. Probably would have been far better had they spun off a series based on that movie isntead. Rogue One, where everyone died in their one and only adventure and were never ever mentioned ever again and forgotten by all.
Wow, wonder why OT fans liked that.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 21:20:26 GMT
The way they've been acting since 2014 says it all. So if all OT fans are, by definition, sequel haters then that means that, by definition, all ST fans are not fans of the OT. Very interesting. Seems super odd to be a fan of a sequel trilogy when you disliked the original movies. I can see the OT for the flawed movie they are, yes. Especially based on the deranged "fans" they created.
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