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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 21:21:43 GMT
Rey's no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman.
TLJ was no more a disaster than ESB was.
If Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman, then that does not devalue the argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, and also creates a new discussion on whether or not Wonder Woman (which iteration if I may ask? Carter? Gadot? The Golden Age? The Silver Age? The New 52? Rebirth? The DC Animated Universe? The Injustice video game series? etc.) The Last Jedi was no more a disaster than the Empire Strikes Back in what way? In terms of storytelling or reception? The quality of storytelling is, mostly, subjective. Objectively speaking however, The Empire Strikes Back did not create disinterest in the Star Wars brand and was still a pretty well-received entry. This was also when the intellectual property was still pretty young and the universe hadn't been that explored, The Last Jedi on the other hand was made when the brand had decades worth of media that cemented the very idea of who the core cast of characters were, like Luke Skywalker. ESB was not a well-received entry, at the time it came out it got a middling reception and was seen as very controversial. It wasn't until the 90s it became more appreciated.
So you're saying that Luke couldn't be anything but an invincible infallible hero who could do no wrong. Great, what a dead-end character.
Were Gundam fans angry when Kamille Biden replaced Amuro Ray as the protagonist of Gundam? No, they accepted that a new protagonist would lead.
Star Wars could learn from Gundam.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2023 21:28:39 GMT
So if all OT fans are, by definition, sequel haters then that means that, by definition, all ST fans are not fans of the OT. Very interesting. Seems super odd to be a fan of a sequel trilogy when you disliked the original movies. I can see the OT for the flawed movie they are, yes. Especially based on the deranged "fans" they created. Alright I think I’ve spent enough time in your little universe. I’m just gonna stop replying now.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 10, 2023 22:04:56 GMT
Rey's no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman.
TLJ was no more a disaster than ESB was.
If Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman, then that does not devalue the argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, and also creates a new discussion on whether or not Wonder Woman (which iteration if I may ask? Carter? Gadot? The Golden Age? The Silver Age? The New 52? Rebirth? The DC Animated Universe? The Injustice video game series? etc.) The Last Jedi was no more a disaster than the Empire Strikes Back in what way? In terms of storytelling or reception? The quality of storytelling is, mostly, subjective. Objectively speaking however, The Empire Strikes Back did not create disinterest in the Star Wars brand and was still a pretty well-received entry. This was also when the intellectual property was still pretty young and the universe hadn't been that explored, The Last Jedi on the other hand was made when the brand had decades worth of media that cemented the very idea of who the core cast of characters were, like Luke Skywalker. Guys like foremashamhmd don't actually understand what a Mary Sue is nor do they understand why fans disliked TLJ. He's just throwing around random unrelated comparisons in an effort to look like he has a valid argument. It would be like me saying Catwoman is no worse a movie as Joker. Or that Wanda is hated by fans as much as Carol Danvers just because she's a woman. Or that Hawkeye is just as popular as Ironman because they're both Avengers. There's no real logic behind the comparisons, they're all red herrings meant to steer the conversation away from a reasonable discussion.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 10, 2023 23:53:38 GMT
If Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman, then that does not devalue the argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, and also creates a new discussion on whether or not Wonder Woman (which iteration if I may ask? Carter? Gadot? The Golden Age? The Silver Age? The New 52? Rebirth? The DC Animated Universe? The Injustice video game series? etc.) The Last Jedi was no more a disaster than the Empire Strikes Back in what way? In terms of storytelling or reception? The quality of storytelling is, mostly, subjective. Objectively speaking however, The Empire Strikes Back did not create disinterest in the Star Wars brand and was still a pretty well-received entry. This was also when the intellectual property was still pretty young and the universe hadn't been that explored, The Last Jedi on the other hand was made when the brand had decades worth of media that cemented the very idea of who the core cast of characters were, like Luke Skywalker. Guys like foremashamhmd don't actually understand what a Mary Sue is nor do they understand why fans disliked TLJ. He's just throwing around random unrelated comparisons in an effort to look like he has a valid argument. It would be like me saying Catwoman is no worse a movie as The Dark Knight. Or that Wanda faced the same backlash from fans as Carol Danvers. Or that Hawkeye is just as popular as Ironman. There's no rhyme or reason to the comparisons. A Mary Sue is what happens when you introduce a female character who has all the characteristics of a normal lead, into a setting where they was already a male lead long before her. Therefore, the "fans" only care about the male lead and don't want a new lead. Especially a woman who isn't a useless shrieking damsel.
They dislike TLJ because it wasn't about Rey, Finn and Poe all getting killed and Luke becoming the heroic lead again, which is all OT fans wanted in the first place: For the Sequels to be about the OT characters again.
Carol Danvers never did anything to deserve backlash from "fans", yet Wanda was excused for her villainous actions in AOU.
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2023 2:17:50 GMT
Guys like foremashamhmd don't actually understand what a Mary Sue is nor do they understand why fans disliked TLJ. He's just throwing around random unrelated comparisons in an effort to look like he has a valid argument. It would be like me saying Catwoman is no worse a movie as The Dark Knight. Or that Wanda faced the same backlash from fans as Carol Danvers. Or that Hawkeye is just as popular as Ironman. There's no rhyme or reason to the comparisons. A Mary Sue is what happens when you introduce a female character who has all the characteristics of a normal lead, into a setting where they was already a male lead long before her. Therefore, the "fans" only care about the male lead and don't want a new lead. Especially a woman who isn't a useless shrieking damsel.
They dislike TLJ because it wasn't about Rey, Finn and Poe all getting killed and Luke becoming the heroic lead again, which is all OT fans wanted in the first place: For the Sequels to be about the OT characters again.
Carol Danvers never did anything to deserve backlash from "fans", yet Wanda was excused for her villainous actions in AOU.
That wasn’t my understanding of the word. My interpretation was closer to this:
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 2:33:30 GMT
A Mary Sue is what happens when you introduce a female character who has all the characteristics of a normal lead, into a setting where they was already a male lead long before her. Therefore, the "fans" only care about the male lead and don't want a new lead. Especially a woman who isn't a useless shrieking damsel.
They dislike TLJ because it wasn't about Rey, Finn and Poe all getting killed and Luke becoming the heroic lead again, which is all OT fans wanted in the first place: For the Sequels to be about the OT characters again.
Carol Danvers never did anything to deserve backlash from "fans", yet Wanda was excused for her villainous actions in AOU.
That wasn’t my understanding of the word. My interpretation was closer to this: Told you the guy didn't understand what a Mary Sue is. Either he's completely trolling at this point or he just doesn't know enough about this topic to be commenting about it.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2023 4:25:27 GMT
A Mary Sue is what happens when you introduce a female character who has all the characteristics of a normal lead, into a setting where they was already a male lead long before her. Therefore, the "fans" only care about the male lead and don't want a new lead. Especially a woman who isn't a useless shrieking damsel.
They dislike TLJ because it wasn't about Rey, Finn and Poe all getting killed and Luke becoming the heroic lead again, which is all OT fans wanted in the first place: For the Sequels to be about the OT characters again.
Carol Danvers never did anything to deserve backlash from "fans", yet Wanda was excused for her villainous actions in AOU.
That wasn’t my understanding of the word. My interpretation was closer to this: "unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses" Is easily applicable to a lot a normal lead characters, especially males.
Heck, Clarice Starling qualifies for being a Sue. Especially considering how she replaced the previous male lead of the first Hannibal Lector story (Will Graham from Red Dragon)
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 4:44:19 GMT
I have no clue what you are taking about. What was life like before "Woke" erupted upon us like cordyceps. The politics of that stuff doesn’t bother me. I’m very progressive. I just found this example to be lazy writing. I’d much prefer the priority go to characterization and story. Black Widow sacrificed both to shoe horn in some rather uninspired and pedestrian social commentary.Of course, there are also certainly movies with “WOKE” social commentary that I admire. Knives Out is a recent example. It just has to actually be smart and organic rather than pandering and insipid like Black Widow. When in the world did that happen? I didn't see any social commentary in the movie, otherwise I'll agree it was pedestrian movie since it was done as an after-thought.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 4:45:42 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 11, 2023 5:14:12 GMT
If Rey is no more a Mary Sue than Wonder Woman, then that does not devalue the argument that Rey is a Mary Sue, and also creates a new discussion on whether or not Wonder Woman (which iteration if I may ask? Carter? Gadot? The Golden Age? The Silver Age? The New 52? Rebirth? The DC Animated Universe? The Injustice video game series? etc.) The Last Jedi was no more a disaster than the Empire Strikes Back in what way? In terms of storytelling or reception? The quality of storytelling is, mostly, subjective. Objectively speaking however, The Empire Strikes Back did not create disinterest in the Star Wars brand and was still a pretty well-received entry. This was also when the intellectual property was still pretty young and the universe hadn't been that explored, The Last Jedi on the other hand was made when the brand had decades worth of media that cemented the very idea of who the core cast of characters were, like Luke Skywalker. ESB was not a well-received entry, at the time it came out it got a middling reception and was seen as very controversial. It wasn't until the 90s it became more appreciated.
So you're saying that Luke couldn't be anything but an invincible infallible hero who could do no wrong. Great, what a dead-end character.
Were Gundam fans angry when Kamille Biden replaced Amuro Ray as the protagonist of Gundam? No, they accepted that a new protagonist would lead.
Star Wars could learn from Gundam.
It was compared to something like The Last Jedi, though. As pointed out, the property was still fairly young at the time and people didn't have a strong idea of what to expect next out of it, this universe and its characters had not quite become the cultural landmarks they are viewed today. The Empire Strikes Back, despite critical reception and consumer reception not being equal to A New Hope, did not create disinterest in the franchise and the context of Return of the Jedi and other supplementary material improved the viewing experience of the film. The same cannot really be said for The Last Jedi, it is going on six years since release and reception is still as mixed as when it came out. Luke Skywalker had been established as a very particular character for the mainstream for decades, when you decide you want to deconstruct such a character in such a way it isn't likely to go over very well with most people. I do not have much familiarity with Gundam, so you're talking about it and relation to Star Wars doesn't click for me - but as with my lack of familiarity with The Mary Tyler Moore Show in your comparison with the writing of She-Hulk, I suppose my lack of knowledge is somehow a fault of society at large.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 11, 2023 5:18:31 GMT
That wasn’t my understanding of the word. My interpretation was closer to this: Told you the guy didn't understand what a Mary Sue is. Either he's completely trolling at this point or he just doesn't know enough about this topic to be commenting about it. Based on the way he has presented himself; I'm going to say to say the second and only claim the first if they're proven wrong about something.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 7:15:29 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? Not necessarily. That's why nobody cried woke about shows like Alita, Atomic Blonde, House of the Dragon, Creed, Rampage, Wonder Woman, Tenet, etc.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 7:21:18 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? Not necessarily. That's why nobody cried woke about shows like Alita, Atomic Blonde, House of the Dragon, Creed, Rampage, Wonder Woman, Tenet, etc. And maybe they’re Woke and no one told you they were.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 7:32:46 GMT
Not necessarily. That's why nobody cried woke about shows like Alita, Atomic Blonde, House of the Dragon, Creed, Rampage, Wonder Woman, Tenet, etc. And maybe they’re Woke and no one told you they were. They weren't (at least as far as my understanding about what woke is), and that's why nobody complained about them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2023 8:37:42 GMT
The politics of that stuff doesn’t bother me. I’m very progressive. I just found this example to be lazy writing. I’d much prefer the priority go to characterization and story. Black Widow sacrificed both to shoe horn in some rather uninspired and pedestrian social commentary.Of course, there are also certainly movies with “WOKE” social commentary that I admire. Knives Out is a recent example. It just has to actually be smart and organic rather than pandering and insipid like Black Widow. When in the world did that happen? I didn't see any social commentary in the movie, otherwise I'll agree it was pedestrian movie since it was done as an after-thought. Don’t you remember that scene in the third act where the Russian guy is all like “I’m Harley Weinberg! Go bake me a pie, woman!” And Nat is all like “Me Too, muthafucka!” And then Taskmaster comes out as metrosexual and gets gay married to Deadpool. ^WOKE!^
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 11, 2023 8:42:55 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? It honestly feels that way with how many scream woke nowadays. Throw in LGBTQ+ characters and you're almost guaranteed to have one idiot scream "they're shoving forced diversity down our throats!"
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 10:29:11 GMT
And maybe they’re Woke and no one told you they were. They weren't (at least as far as my understanding about what woke is), and that's why nobody complained about them. They were made before the Woke fad started too.
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 11, 2023 11:13:02 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? No.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 11:16:49 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? No. Yep. You boys want your superheroes to look and think just like you and that's understandable.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2023 15:17:24 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? Yes, that's all it takes.
The Anti-Wokes would demand Sidney Poitier be banned from acting, if they'd been around in his time.
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