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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2023 15:20:07 GMT
ESB was not a well-received entry, at the time it came out it got a middling reception and was seen as very controversial. It wasn't until the 90s it became more appreciated.
So you're saying that Luke couldn't be anything but an invincible infallible hero who could do no wrong. Great, what a dead-end character.
Were Gundam fans angry when Kamille Biden replaced Amuro Ray as the protagonist of Gundam? No, they accepted that a new protagonist would lead.
Star Wars could learn from Gundam.
It was compared to something like The Last Jedi, though. As pointed out, the property was still fairly young at the time and people didn't have a strong idea of what to expect next out of it, this universe and its characters had not quite become the cultural landmarks they are viewed today. The Empire Strikes Back, despite critical reception and consumer reception not being equal to A New Hope, did not create disinterest in the franchise and the context of Return of the Jedi and other supplementary material improved the viewing experience of the film. The same cannot really be said for The Last Jedi, it is going on six years since release and reception is still as mixed as when it came out. Luke Skywalker had been established as a very particular character for the mainstream for decades, when you decide you want to deconstruct such a character in such a way it isn't likely to go over very well with most people. I do not have much familiarity with Gundam, so you're talking about it and relation to Star Wars doesn't click for me - but as with my lack of familiarity with The Mary Tyler Moore Show in your comparison with the writing of She-Hulk, I suppose my lack of knowledge is somehow a fault of society at large. Mixed reception because it dared to try something outside the norm. Which simply shows how stagnant Star Wars really is in the minds of the "fans" if the smallest thing can enrage them in such a way.
I still run into morons who say "The Casino Planet was 100% unnecessary!" and they fail to realize that if they hadn't found DJ there, the entire 3rd Act couldn't happen.
Tough Noogies, he couldn't stay exactly the same after 30 years. Rey was the lead, not him, they weren't going to kill off Rey to make Luke the hero again.
No, it's a Japanese thing. But it's a good example of how "fans" should accept that new entries will be about new characters and not to think it's always going to be about the same old characters forever.
Admittedly, Lucas himself is partly to blame for this because HE refused to make new characters when he had the chance.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2023 15:21:57 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? Not necessarily. That's why nobody cried woke about shows like Alita, Atomic Blonde, House of the Dragon, Creed, Rampage, Wonder Woman, Tenet, etc. Alita and Wonder Woman: that disgusting "Born Sexy Yesterday" cliche
House of the Dragon: Male Dominated
Creed: Apollo himself was always black so having his black son get in the game isn't seen as an "Instrusion"
Atomic Blonde: Charlize Theron, she's popular enough to be immune to the criticism the same way no one can accuse anything Denzel Washington in as being "Forced Diversity"
Tenet: The Black Lead DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A NAME. Nolan has always sucked with women and nonwhites.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 18:03:19 GMT
They weren't (at least as far as my understanding about what woke is), and that's why nobody complained about them. They were made before the Woke fad started too. No they weren't. All of those movies are fairly new and came out after people started calling other shows woke. They certainly came out after the female Ghostbusters movie. And people were already calling Supergirl woke when it first came out in 2015. All of the shows I mentioned came after that.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 11, 2023 19:15:40 GMT
Supergirl was "Woke" but somehow Stargirl wasn't. What lovely double standards...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2023 19:27:10 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? There’s definitely a fuck ton of far right wingers who act that way. The most vocal anti-woke folks are usually bigots. As a progressive though, I do think the way liberals go about their social commentary these days is sometimes flawed, forced, and counterproductive- even when I fundamentally agree with the message. The whole “culture war” thing is bad for the country as a whole. There’s a better way to do this.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 11, 2023 19:34:34 GMT
It was compared to something like The Last Jedi, though. As pointed out, the property was still fairly young at the time and people didn't have a strong idea of what to expect next out of it, this universe and its characters had not quite become the cultural landmarks they are viewed today. The Empire Strikes Back, despite critical reception and consumer reception not being equal to A New Hope, did not create disinterest in the franchise and the context of Return of the Jedi and other supplementary material improved the viewing experience of the film. The same cannot really be said for The Last Jedi, it is going on six years since release and reception is still as mixed as when it came out. Luke Skywalker had been established as a very particular character for the mainstream for decades, when you decide you want to deconstruct such a character in such a way it isn't likely to go over very well with most people. I do not have much familiarity with Gundam, so you're talking about it and relation to Star Wars doesn't click for me - but as with my lack of familiarity with The Mary Tyler Moore Show in your comparison with the writing of She-Hulk, I suppose my lack of knowledge is somehow a fault of society at large. Mixed reception because it dared to try something outside the norm. Which simply shows how stagnant Star Wars really is in the minds of the "fans" if the smallest thing can enrage them in such a way.
I still run into morons who say "The Casino Planet was 100% unnecessary!" and they fail to realize that if they hadn't found DJ there, the entire 3rd Act couldn't happen.
Tough Noogies, he couldn't stay exactly the same after 30 years. Rey was the lead, not him, they weren't going to kill off Rey to make Luke the hero again.
No, it's a Japanese thing. But it's a good example of how "fans" should accept that new entries will be about new characters and not to think it's always going to be about the same old characters forever.
Admittedly, Lucas himself is partly to blame for this because HE refused to make new characters when he had the chance.
It wasn't only disliked because it tried to be something different, people have expressed criticism over various aspects pertaining to the general filmmaking and the general storytelling. One person here on Reddit composes a pretty articulate explanation as to why they feel the film's screenwriting is poor, link
Acquaintance of mine Kamran Pasha also used the film to teach bad screenwriting craft in seminars he has taught, linkI would argue that you could certainly have Rey be the lead of the story, and not deconstruct Luke Skywalker like how Rian Johnson had. I also feel more people would like Rey if she were a better constructed character - we are tasked with having to join her in her journey and cheer for her, but we're not given enough reasons as to why we should.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 11, 2023 19:36:10 GMT
My take is if there are black men and woman as lead hero characters, then the movie is necessarily woke? There’s definitely a fuck ton of far right wingers who act that way. The most vocal anti-woke folks are usually bigots. As a progressive though, I do think the way liberals go about their social commentary these days is sometimes flawed, forced, and counterproductive- even when I fundamentally agree with the message. The whole “culture war” thing is bad for the country as a whole. There’s a better way to do this. I actually agree. You know things are bad when fucking politicians are talking about wokeness now. I will say that i will never stop mocking the reactionaries though. They're blood sucking leeches who are responsible for how bad the culture war has gotten and are only doing it to make money off of it. Which to me makes them the worst of the offenders.
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Post by Prime etc. on Feb 11, 2023 19:37:40 GMT
The Mary Tyler Moore show was woke for its day--it was about a single woman seeking to make it in the big city with no interest in marriage or children.
It's non-traditional but the threads of the show were still rooted in the traditional creative philosophy and so the standards for comedy and storytelling were higher. Over time--as you move further from tradition, the weaker it gets.
I talked to Kenneth Johnson recently --who came up with the She Hulk concept--and he said when making the 70s Hulk show, he wanted it to be watchable for adults.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 11, 2023 19:38:20 GMT
Supergirl was "Woke" but somehow Stargirl wasn't. What lovely double standards... Supergirl did get very woke starting in its second season when it moved to The CW, agendas were emphasized stronger than actual plot. Stargirl had woke elements but not to the degree of Supergirl's later seasons and it helped that the seasons were shorter, so the producers had to keep the plot focused.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 19:54:01 GMT
Here's my take on this. There are definitely some unreasonable people out there who will immediately call something woke just because it features a female or POC lead. Same way there are people who hate anything with Tom Cruise or cry foul when a movie has a pure white cast.
These people are all unreasonable, but they're also a minority.
For the vast majority of audiences, they won't label a movie woke just because of a female or POC lead. Normally there needs to be some clear socio-political push or motive to the movie. The more heavy-handed it is the more people complain about it being woke.
That's why people would call Captain Marvel woke but not Wonder Woman. They'll label Supergirl woke but not Jessica Jones. Namor but not Aquaman. 355 but not Atomic Blonde or Anna. Terminator Dark Fate but not Alita. Mulan but not Everyone Everywhere All at Once. Rings of Power but not House of the Dragon. Etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2023 20:39:52 GMT
There’s definitely a fuck ton of far right wingers who act that way. The most vocal anti-woke folks are usually bigots. As a progressive though, I do think the way liberals go about their social commentary these days is sometimes flawed, forced, and counterproductive- even when I fundamentally agree with the message. The whole “culture war” thing is bad for the country as a whole. There’s a better way to do this. I actually agree. You know things are bad when fucking politicians are talking about wokeness now. I will say that i will never stop mocking the reactionaries though. They're blood sucking leeches who are responsible for how bad the culture war has gotten and are only doing it to make money off of it. Which to me makes them the worst of the offenders. Totally agree. Those far right weirdos are the worst. Like Dr Strange is supposedly “woke”. Batman is supposedly “woke”. Neither one has a political message at all. They just happen to feature gay people and black people. Those guys probably don’t even believe what they’re saying. They just know it gets views.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 21:44:38 GMT
They were made before the Woke fad started too. No they weren't. All of those movies are fairly new and came out after people started calling other shows woke. They certainly came out after the female Ghostbusters movie. And people were already calling Supergirl woke when it first came out in 2015. All of the shows I mentioned came after that. I don’t think the word Woke being used then, but how the fuck the female Ghostbusters is Woke is beyond me. Both male and female versions are silly, but fun movies that do not remotely have a point between them.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 22:28:25 GMT
No they weren't. All of those movies are fairly new and came out after people started calling other shows woke. They certainly came out after the female Ghostbusters movie. And people were already calling Supergirl woke when it first came out in 2015. All of the shows I mentioned came after that. I don’t think the word Woke being used then, but how the fuck the female Ghostbusters is Woke is beyond me. Both male and female versions are silly, but fun movies that do not remotely have a point between them. According to most articles on Google, the word "woke" started to get used in its modern-meaning around 2014. So yeah, all the examples I gave were after 2014, yet they weren't considered woke. Heck, House of the Dragon just came out this year, yet you don't hear people calling it woke like they do Rings of Power.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 22:38:46 GMT
I don’t think the word Woke being used then, but how the fuck the female Ghostbusters is Woke is beyond me. Both male and female versions are silly, but fun movies that do not remotely have a point between them. According to most articles on Google, the word "woke" started to get used in its modern-meaning around 2014. So yeah, all the examples I gave were after 2014, yet they weren't considered woke. Heck, House of the Dragon just came out this year, yet you don't hear people calling it woke like they do Rings of Power. Probably because it attracts a more adult audience not as concerned with right wing political correctness. Woke is a cultural phenomenon that will pass away once the current Right Wing “satanic panic” subsides. Plus, it is made up internet word that has a shifting definition depending on the user. I’ve no clue if Rings of Power was being right wing politically incorrect or Woke since I didn’t watch it.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 22:49:29 GMT
According to most articles on Google, the word "woke" started to get used in its modern-meaning around 2014. So yeah, all the examples I gave were after 2014, yet they weren't considered woke. Heck, House of the Dragon just came out this year, yet you don't hear people calling it woke like they do Rings of Power. Probably because it attracts a more adult audience not as concerned with right wing political correctness. Woke is a cultural phenomenon that will pass away once the current Right Wing “satanic panic” subsides. Plus, it is made up internet word that has a shifting definition depending on the user. I’ve no clue if Rings of Power was being right wing politically incorrect or Woke since I didn’t watch it. Right wing satanic panic? You do realize it's not just the right who has issues when something is "woke" right? Definitely not just far right. A good amount of moderates and centrists dislike it when their shows (especially fictional shows meant for entertainment) are heavily politicized. Heck I'm not even right wing myself. Anyway, we're straying away from the main point of our conversation. The fact that I'm trying to point out is that simply having a female or POC lead is not enough for people to call something "woke". Generally it needs to have some form of socio-political push attached to it as well. Thus the examples of I gave you of modern shows that people didn't consider woke.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2023 22:51:09 GMT
Was THE ETERNALS woke?
I say no. But I am still trying to figure out why androids designed to fight monsters would need to have any sexual orientation at all. I guess the Celestials still wanted them to have fun?
“Go forth, my children and aid the mortals! …And screw a few of em if you want. They’re pretty hot!”
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 22:59:03 GMT
Was THE ETERNALS woke? I say no. But I am still trying to figure out why androids designed to fight monsters would need to have any sexual orientation at all. I guess the Celestials still wanted them to have fun? “Go forth, my children and aid the mortals! …And screw a few of em if you want. They’re pretty hot!” It was woke but it was handled more subtly than others. Probably why I enjoyed Eternals. I've always said I had no issues with woke shows as long as they were done properly. But here, let me ask you this: If the Eternals were near-perfect androids, why did one of them have to be deaf and mute? Heck, why make one a kid? Why were the races and genders of the Eternals changed so drastically in the movie from what they were in the comics? If the Eternals were really thousand and thousands of years old and their bodies were modeled after the living human species at that time, shouldn't they have looked a little more alike instead of being vastly diverse?
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 23:01:34 GMT
Probably because it attracts a more adult audience not as concerned with right wing political correctness. Woke is a cultural phenomenon that will pass away once the current Right Wing “satanic panic” subsides. Plus, it is made up internet word that has a shifting definition depending on the user. I’ve no clue if Rings of Power was being right wing politically incorrect or Woke since I didn’t watch it. Right wing satanic panic? You do realize it's not just the right who has issues when something is "woke" right? Definitely not just far right. A good amount of moderates and centrists dislike it when their shows (especially fictional shows meant for entertainment) are heavily politicized. Heck I'm not even right wing myself. Anyway, we're straying away from the main point of our conversation. The fact that I'm trying to point out is that simply having a female or POC lead is not enough for people to call something "woke". Generally it needs to have some form of socio-political push attached to it as well. Thus the examples of I gave you of modern shows that people didn't consider woke. I’ve never seen these heavily politicized shows, give me an example of one. Is this form of Hollywood Wokism worse than when they self censored all their movies to conform to religious conservatism? Do we need to go back to that. I don’t like heavy violence in movies, it makes my sick sometimes, but should they conform John Wick to my political sensibilities? I don’t them expect to, because I’m adult who handle it.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 11, 2023 23:07:34 GMT
Right wing satanic panic? You do realize it's not just the right who has issues when something is "woke" right? Definitely not just far right. A good amount of moderates and centrists dislike it when their shows (especially fictional shows meant for entertainment) are heavily politicized. Heck I'm not even right wing myself. Anyway, we're straying away from the main point of our conversation. The fact that I'm trying to point out is that simply having a female or POC lead is not enough for people to call something "woke". Generally it needs to have some form of socio-political push attached to it as well. Thus the examples of I gave you of modern shows that people didn't consider woke. I’ve never seen these heavily politicized shows, give me an example of one. Is this form of Hollywood Wokism worse than when they self censored all their movies to conform to religious conservatism? Do we need to go back to that. I don’t like heavy violence in movies, it makes my sick sometimes, but should they conform John Wick to my political sensibilities? I don’t them expect to, because I’m adult who handle it. She-Hulk, Supergirl and the latest Charlie's Angels are easy examples of heavily politicized shows. I hear Velma is another one although I haven't watched that one. Religious conservatism and wokism are, on their own, not essentially bad in small doses. The problem comes when they're taken to fanatical levels. Anything done in excess is always a bad thing, balance is always the best path. Leaning too heavily left will flip your boat over just as surely as leaning too heavily right will.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 11, 2023 23:10:31 GMT
I’ve never seen these heavily politicized shows, give me an example of one. Is this form of Hollywood Wokism worse than when they self censored all their movies to conform to religious conservatism? Do we need to go back to that. I don’t like heavy violence in movies, it makes my sick sometimes, but should they conform John Wick to my political sensibilities? I don’t them expect to, because I’m adult who handle it. She-Hulk, Supergirl and the latest Charlie's Angels are easy examples of heavily politicized shows. I hear Velma is another one although I haven't watched that one. Religious conservatism and wokism are, on their own, not essentially bad in small doses. The problem comes when they're taken to fanatical levels. Anything done in excess is always a bad thing, balance is always the best path. Leaning too heavily left will flip your boat over just as surely as leaning too heavily right will. I’ve seen She-Hulk and it’s not a political show, but about a woman who turns into a green monster on command. It’s about as political as a Dairy Queen. What you think is political is cultural and we’re talking comic book culture, so how serious is this Woke problem, seriously?
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