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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 2:00:36 GMT
I think the problem here is that you believe social politics is completely separate from culture, whereas I'm saying culture is definitely included in social politics. I mean, that's why it's called social politics after all. You yourself said that the show was specifically trying to "lampoon" on incels and their toxic culture. Well there you go. That's why it's woke. Whether you call that cultural or political, the end result is the same: They were using a superhero show as a vehicle to deliver some kind of social commentary rather than simply making a good superhero show. That doesn't necessarily make it bad. Just because something is woke doesn't automatically mean it's bad. It's just a description. SOme people like it, some people don't. But let's at least call a duck a duck. I said the opposite of that. So another problem for me is the exhaustion of having explanation things in detail so you do not misunderstand what I’m saying. We can’t come to any common ground. I agree with you She Hulk was crap and done on purpose to troll, aka insult, a particular group of petty and annoying, but nonetheless Marvel fans. We are more agreement than you realize. But you guys will overblow it into a political movement orchestrated in Liberal agents out to destroy who you are as a man and that’s an illusion in my educated estimation. No decent people would have been offended by She-Hulk.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 12, 2023 2:09:55 GMT
I said the opposite of that. So another problem for me is the exhaustion of having explanation things in detail so you do not misunderstand what I’m saying. We can’t come to any common ground. I agree with you She Hulk was crap and done on purpose to troll, aka insult, a particular group of petty and annoying, but nonetheless Marvel fans. We are more agreement than you realize. But you guys will overblow it into a political movement orchestrated in Liberal agents out to destroy who you are as a man and that’s an illusion in my educated estimation. No decent people would have been offended by She-Hulk. If you have good taste it does. And they ruined the She Hulk character. The only bright spot is Tatiana Maslany. Maybe this will be explained away at some point. It ended with the Hulk showing up from Sakaar with a half grown son…. arrrrrggghgh!
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 2:14:14 GMT
No decent people would have been offended by She-Hulk. If you have good taste it does. And they ruined the She Hulk character. The only bright spot is Tatiana Maslany. Maybe this will be explained away at some point. It ended with the Hulk showing up from Sakaar with a half grown son…. arrrrrggghgh!Skarr? Well he's from the comics and that's how it happened, Hulk impregnated a warrior lady while there.
No decent person would take the "Intelligencia" thing personally. Fragile Broflakes did but they're irrelevant.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 12, 2023 2:17:18 GMT
If you have good taste it does. And they ruined the She Hulk character. The only bright spot is Tatiana Maslany. Maybe this will be explained away at some point. It ended with the Hulk showing up from Sakaar with a half grown son…. arrrrrggghgh!Skarr? Well he's from the comics and that's how it happened, Hulk impregnated a warrior lady while there.
No decent person would take the "Intelligencia" thing personally. Fragile Broflakes did but they're irrelevant.
No decent person? Come on.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 12, 2023 2:18:11 GMT
I think the problem here is that you believe social politics is completely separate from culture, whereas I'm saying culture is definitely included in social politics. I mean, that's why it's called social politics after all. You yourself said that the show was specifically trying to "lampoon" on incels and their toxic culture. Well there you go. That's why it's woke. Whether you call that cultural or political, the end result is the same: They were using a superhero show as a vehicle to deliver some kind of social commentary rather than simply making a good superhero show. That doesn't necessarily make it bad. Just because something is woke doesn't automatically mean it's bad. It's just a description. SOme people like it, some people don't. But let's at least call a duck a duck. I said the opposite of that. So another problem for me is the exhaustion of having explanation things in detail so you do not misunderstand what I’m saying. We can’t come to any common ground. I agree with you She Hulk was crap and done on purpose to troll, aka insult, a particular group of petty and annoying, but nonetheless Marvel fans. We are more agreement than you realize. But you guys will overblow it into a political movement orchestrated in Liberal agents out to destroy who you are as a man and that’s an illusion in my educated estimation. Well, maybe you should be a bit more consistent in your stance then so we don't end up in a misunderstanding? After all, these are a few things you said earlier: Then you said this: And now you're saying you actually agree with me when I say that cultural = socio-political and therefore She-Hulk is a heavily politicized (ie. socio-politicized) show regardless of whether you call that cultural, political or what not. So what should I make of that? Either pick a side and stick with it or explain yourself better because you're not making sense here. P.S. I never said anything like this. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else:
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 12, 2023 2:32:20 GMT
I said the opposite of that. So another problem for me is the exhaustion of having explanation things in detail so you do not misunderstand what I’m saying. We can’t come to any common ground. I agree with you She Hulk was crap and done on purpose to troll, aka insult, a particular group of petty and annoying, but nonetheless Marvel fans. We are more agreement than you realize. But you guys will overblow it into a political movement orchestrated in Liberal agents out to destroy who you are as a man and that’s an illusion in my educated estimation. Well, maybe you should be a bit more consistent in your stance then so we don't end up in a misunderstanding? After all, these are a few things you said earlier: Then you said this: And now you're saying you actually agree with me when I say that cultural = socio-political and She-Hulk is a heavily politicized (ie. socio-politicized) show. So what should I make of that? Either pick a side and stick with it or explain yourself better because you're not making sense here. Yes, in how the political or social are framed. Think in terms of which came first in any given social group, the political frame or the larger cultural frame? On top of our political culture we are using to judge everything and one with, that is, is it politically correct or not, is our pop-culture, which at the present is being dominated by the mega comic book/gaming/internet subculture. As I said, everyone is vying for attention and this is drowning out all actual dialogue. The fix is not demanding one side of political heroes acquiesce to the other just like in the comics. We are existentially fighting in a simulacra world of false assumptions in an internet bubble. Clearly, I’m one of the villains who could an antihero. 😉 I’ve recommended this documentary many times if one wants to understand how ideology functions. archive.org/details/the-perverts-guide-to-ideology-2012-hd
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 2:45:07 GMT
There’s definitely a fuck ton of far right wingers who act that way. The most vocal anti-woke folks are usually bigots. As a progressive though, I do think the way liberals go about their social commentary these days is sometimes flawed, forced, and counterproductive- even when I fundamentally agree with the message. The whole “culture war” thing is bad for the country as a whole. There’s a better way to do this. There is no Culture War, That suggests both sides stand an equal chance of winning. History shows the inevitably, the progression's ideals always wins out. Equality will indeed win out in the long run. But pandering and dumbed down agendas are not helpful, and as a fan of good fiction I find them downright boring. Social commentary can be poignant and thought provoking, but it has to be done with intelligence and nuance. Most agenda driven fiction is not pure in its motivations. Some are full of double standards and hypocrisy. Not everything that appears to be about equality actually is
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 12, 2023 2:58:38 GMT
There is no Culture War, That suggests both sides stand an equal chance of winning. History shows the inevitably, the progression's ideals always wins out. You’re taking what I said too literally. I’m all for progress. And equality will indeed win out in the long run. By “culture wars” I’m merely referring to the way people handle their political commentary. I’m progressive but I don’t think pandering and blatant social agendas are helpful, and as a fan of good fiction I often find them downright boring. Social commentary can be poignant and thought provoking, but it has to be done with intelligence and nuance. Agendas should never drive the fiction. Instead, commentary should arise organically from the story and characters. There’s always going to a culture war in one form another, usually several at once. We have been in one called civil and cultural rights since our inception as a nation. It flares up sometimes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 3:04:49 GMT
You’re taking what I said too literally. I’m all for progress. And equality will indeed win out in the long run. By “culture wars” I’m merely referring to the way people handle their political commentary. I’m progressive but I don’t think pandering and blatant social agendas are helpful, and as a fan of good fiction I often find them downright boring. Social commentary can be poignant and thought provoking, but it has to be done with intelligence and nuance. Agendas should never drive the fiction. Instead, commentary should arise organically from the story and characters. There’s always going to a culture war in one form another, usually several at once. We have been in one called civil and cultural rights since our inception as a nation. It flares up sometimes. True. And it’s always going to be reflected in popular culture. I’m all for social commentary. I just think it needs to be nuanced and intelligent. Knives Out has some excellent left leaning commentary. Glass Onion however is really stilted and cringey. It’s all subjective, of course.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 12, 2023 3:17:47 GMT
It wasn't only disliked because it tried to be something different, people have expressed criticism over various aspects pertaining to the general filmmaking and the general storytelling. One person here on Reddit composes a pretty articulate explanation as to why they feel the film's screenwriting is poor, link
Acquaintance of mine Kamran Pasha also used the film to teach bad screenwriting craft in seminars he has taught, linkI would argue that you could certainly have Rey be the lead of the story, and not deconstruct Luke Skywalker like how Rian Johnson had. I also feel more people would like Rey if she were a better constructed character - we are tasked with having to join her in her journey and cheer for her, but we're not given enough reasons as to why we should. If they complain about Canto Bright or Holdo not being a doormat for Poe, then they weren't paying attention.
He should use actual bad films, like the Prequels.
You can't, as long as Luke was around the "fans" would always be complaining he should be doing everything Rey was doing. As for Rey being "better constructed", they weren't going to make her a useless shrieking damsel who needed Finn and Poe to do everything for her.
The story of the Sequels was about Rey and Ren, Finn and Poe weren't even meant to be major characters to start with.
Since neither person made either accused element of the plot a particularly huge, if one at all, talking point in their argument, your argument of them not paying attention is not valid enough. He says the prequels have their moments, but he couldn't find any bright spots for The Last Jedi as a Star Wars viewing experience, and he and others in the industry feel the movie is a poorly constructed work, so he has used that film as example of bad screenwriting in his seminars. I would argue that you could have Rey still be the main character but still retain Luke Skywalker's aspirational nature that had been established as the norm for many years prior, but Rian Johnson wanted to subvert expectaction and turn him into a quitter. Your accusation of what I would have preferred for Rey Palpatine is pure fallacy and an attack on my character (Both of which you have made the habit of doing so as of late), if it is anything to you I didn't mind her in The Force Awakens but the following films dropped the ball and I just didn't have more investment in her story. I personally never had interest in the character of Poe Dameron, I like Oscar Isaac but the character did nothing for me. John Boyega's Finn I actually liked and was hoping he would have a lot more to do following The Force Awakens, but instead they dropped the ball with him as well. I think it's pretty telling when you have John Boyega say in interviews that they did his character dirty following The Force Awakens.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 12, 2023 3:28:34 GMT
Supergirl did get very woke starting in its second season when it moved to The CW, agendas were emphasized stronger than actual plot. Stargirl had woke elements but not to the degree of Supergirl's later seasons and it helped that the seasons were shorter, so the producers had to keep the plot focused. No more woke than the Superman stories themselves were. Comics always have dealt with social and political commentary. Like which? And shouldn't you mean Supergirl? The series was based on that character, not her cousin. Comic books have always dealt with social and political commentary, but the creators of the past decades were better at incorporating them into stories and generally avoided coming across as being preachy. Stan Lee himself had progressive views that he would occasionally incorporate into the stories of Marvel Comics in the 60's, 70's, and 80's (i.e. opposed to demeaning women, bigotry, racism, etc.) but he didn't want to preach to the audience, in fact he hated preaching, he felt Marvel, and the industry on the whole, should focus primarily on entertaining the reader - (Start at the 7:37 minute mark and watch till 10:45)
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 4:20:47 GMT
Skarr? Well he's from the comics and that's how it happened, Hulk impregnated a warrior lady while there.
No decent person would take the "Intelligencia" thing personally. Fragile Broflakes did but they're irrelevant.
No decent person? Come on. Yes, no decent person would think the Intelligencia was a swipe at them. The only ones offended were the ones who think and act like those people.
IE, fake fans.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 4:22:09 GMT
There is no Culture War, That suggests both sides stand an equal chance of winning. History shows the inevitably, the progression's ideals always wins out. Equality will indeed win out in the long run. But pandering and dumbed down agendas are not helpful, and as a fan of good fiction I find them downright boring. Social commentary can be poignant and thought provoking, but it has to be done with intelligence and nuance. Most agenda driven fiction is not pure in its motivations. Some are full of double standards and hypocrisy. Not everything that appears to be about equality actually is Go watch "The Wire" or "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" and tell me those were done with subtlety or nuance.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 4:26:50 GMT
If they complain about Canto Bright or Holdo not being a doormat for Poe, then they weren't paying attention.
He should use actual bad films, like the Prequels.
You can't, as long as Luke was around the "fans" would always be complaining he should be doing everything Rey was doing. As for Rey being "better constructed", they weren't going to make her a useless shrieking damsel who needed Finn and Poe to do everything for her.
The story of the Sequels was about Rey and Ren, Finn and Poe weren't even meant to be major characters to start with.
Since neither person made either accused element of the plot a particularly huge, if one at all, talking point in their argument, your argument of them not paying attention is not valid enough. He says the prequels have their moments, but he couldn't find any bright spots for The Last Jedi as a Star Wars viewing experience, and he and others in the industry feel the movie is a poorly constructed work, so he has used that film as example of bad screenwriting in his seminars. I would argue that you could have Rey still be the main character but still retain Luke Skywalker's aspirational nature that had been established as the norm for many years prior, but Rian Johnson wanted to subvert expectaction and turn him into a quitter. Your accusation of what I would have preferred for Rey Palpatine is pure fallacy and an attack on my character (Both of which you have made the habit of doing so as of late), if it is anything to you I didn't mind her in The Force Awakens but the following films dropped the ball and I just didn't have more investment in her story. I personally never had interest in the character of Poe Dameron, I like Oscar Isaac but the character did nothing for me. John Boyega's Finn I actually liked and was hoping he would have a lot more to do following The Force Awakens, but instead they dropped the ball with him as well. I think it's pretty telling when you have John Boyega say in interviews that they did his character dirty following The Force Awakens. They still keep complaining about them.
If he thinks the Prequels have any moments, that says more about him.
You can't. The writers of the Sequels said that they tried to incorporate Luke into the Sequels but couldn't find any ways to remove him from the plot so Rey could be anything more than his useless idiot shrieking damsel sidekick.
The alternative for Rey is compiled from the usual "How to fix Rey" approaches I've encountered for the last 7 years. Namely making her a useless shrieking damsel and make the Sequels either be all about Luke or all about Finn and she doesn't really have any role at all.
They didn't drop the ball on Finn, Finn was never intended to be anything but a plot device to get Rey involved in the plot. That's why it ended with him in a coma, most likely he was just supposed to die in TFA (along with Poe) but this got changed during production...even though the writers really had no idea what to do with him since he was never meant to be anything but a plot device for Rey.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 4:29:27 GMT
No more woke than the Superman stories themselves were. Comics always have dealt with social and political commentary. Like which? And shouldn't you mean Supergirl? The series was based on that character, not her cousin. Comic books have always dealt with social and political commentary, but the creators of the past decades were better at incorporating them into stories and generally avoided coming across as being preachy. Stan Lee himself had progressive views that he would occasionally incorporate into the stories of Marvel Comics in the 60's, 70's, and 80's (i.e. opposed to demeaning women, bigotry, racism, etc.) but he didn't want to preach to the audience, in fact he hated preaching, he felt Marvel, and the industry on the whole, should focus primarily on entertaining the reader - (Start at the 7:37 minute mark and watch till 10:45) "Must there be a Superman?" story, where Superman starts to worry if he's making humans too dependent on him. It questions the very concept of Superheroes.
I mean both.
Uh-huh, the storyline that led to Cap meeting Falcon was a preachfest. It was about Steve moving around from place to place as a Drifter, feeling like he has no real home and no idea what to do with his life (ignoring Avengers Mansion) and ending with him partnering with a Black Man (this was during the 60s).
How is that subtle, exactly?
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 12, 2023 4:39:01 GMT
No decent person? Come on. Yes, no decent person would think the Intelligencia was a swipe at them. The only ones offended were the ones who think and act like those people.
IE, fake fans.
Yes, the She-Hulk writing staff is trolling those who think and act like the trolls behind the Intelligencia. I daresay they read a lot of stuff on the internet to get their ideas.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 12, 2023 4:47:38 GMT
Since neither person made either accused element of the plot a particularly huge, if one at all, talking point in their argument, your argument of them not paying attention is not valid enough. He says the prequels have their moments, but he couldn't find any bright spots for The Last Jedi as a Star Wars viewing experience, and he and others in the industry feel the movie is a poorly constructed work, so he has used that film as example of bad screenwriting in his seminars. I would argue that you could have Rey still be the main character but still retain Luke Skywalker's aspirational nature that had been established as the norm for many years prior, but Rian Johnson wanted to subvert expectaction and turn him into a quitter. Your accusation of what I would have preferred for Rey Palpatine is pure fallacy and an attack on my character (Both of which you have made the habit of doing so as of late), if it is anything to you I didn't mind her in The Force Awakens but the following films dropped the ball and I just didn't have more investment in her story. I personally never had interest in the character of Poe Dameron, I like Oscar Isaac but the character did nothing for me. John Boyega's Finn I actually liked and was hoping he would have a lot more to do following The Force Awakens, but instead they dropped the ball with him as well. I think it's pretty telling when you have John Boyega say in interviews that they did his character dirty following The Force Awakens. They still keep complaining about them.
If he thinks the Prequels have any moments, that says more about him.
You can't. The writers of the Sequels said that they tried to incorporate Luke into the Sequels but couldn't find any ways to remove him from the plot so Rey could be anything more than his useless idiot shrieking damsel sidekick.
The alternative for Rey is compiled from the usual "How to fix Rey" approaches I've encountered for the last 7 years. Namely making her a useless shrieking damsel and make the Sequels either be all about Luke or all about Finn and she doesn't really have any role at all.
They didn't drop the ball on Finn, Finn was never intended to be anything but a plot device to get Rey involved in the plot. That's why it ended with him in a coma, most likely he was just supposed to die in TFA (along with Poe) but this got changed during production...even though the writers really had no idea what to do with him since he was never meant to be anything but a plot device for Rey.
They have the right to if they want to. He has the right to his opinions, as you do yours. You do not have to agree with him, but should at least respect his different view - as the saying goes, if we all thought alike, the world would be boring. You can call him into question as much as you wish, but you (and neither I) have participated in any classes where he has used the film as example, and you have not had conversation with him before, either. And that gives you the right to assume what I would have wanted? I suppose I should not be surprised, you have been a fallacy machine this whole thread and in another similar one.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 12, 2023 4:55:02 GMT
Like which? And shouldn't you mean Supergirl? The series was based on that character, not her cousin. Comic books have always dealt with social and political commentary, but the creators of the past decades were better at incorporating them into stories and generally avoided coming across as being preachy. Stan Lee himself had progressive views that he would occasionally incorporate into the stories of Marvel Comics in the 60's, 70's, and 80's (i.e. opposed to demeaning women, bigotry, racism, etc.) but he didn't want to preach to the audience, in fact he hated preaching, he felt Marvel, and the industry on the whole, should focus primarily on entertaining the reader - (Start at the 7:37 minute mark and watch till 10:45) "Must there be a Superman?" story, where Superman starts to worry if he's making humans too dependent on him. It questions the very concept of Superheroes.
I mean both.
Uh-huh, the storyline that led to Cap meeting Falcon was a preachfest. It was about Steve moving around from place to place as a Drifter, feeling like he has no real home and no idea what to do with his life (ignoring Avengers Mansion) and ending with him partnering with a Black Man (this was during the 60s).
How is that subtle, exactly?
What was woke about the story, though? But why not focus on Supergirl's stories first before Superman's? As Stan Lee states in the video, he was strongly opposed to bigotry, cruelty, racism, and sexism, and would occasionally reinforce that they were bad in the stories in his time overseeing the titles, but he, as a writer (not the case for all others), didn't like to preach, and wanted the reputation for Marvel Comics to be providers of escapist entertainment. I suppose your idea of preaching differs from Lee's.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 5:21:08 GMT
They still keep complaining about them.
If he thinks the Prequels have any moments, that says more about him.
You can't. The writers of the Sequels said that they tried to incorporate Luke into the Sequels but couldn't find any ways to remove him from the plot so Rey could be anything more than his useless idiot shrieking damsel sidekick.
The alternative for Rey is compiled from the usual "How to fix Rey" approaches I've encountered for the last 7 years. Namely making her a useless shrieking damsel and make the Sequels either be all about Luke or all about Finn and she doesn't really have any role at all.
They didn't drop the ball on Finn, Finn was never intended to be anything but a plot device to get Rey involved in the plot. That's why it ended with him in a coma, most likely he was just supposed to die in TFA (along with Poe) but this got changed during production...even though the writers really had no idea what to do with him since he was never meant to be anything but a plot device for Rey.
They have the right to if they want to. He has the right to his opinions, as you do yours. You do not have to agree with him, but should at least respect his different view - as the saying goes, if we all thought alike, the world would be boring. You can call him into question as much as you wish, but you (and neither I) have participated in any classes where he has used the film as example, and you have not had conversation with him before, either. And that gives you the right to assume what I would have wanted? I suppose I should not be surprised, you have been a fallacy machine this whole thread and in another similar one. And people who actually saw the movie have the right to point out how Canto Bright was necessary for the entire 3rd Act to happen.
I base it on the nonstop complaints I've put up with for 7 years and how it often is the same stuff repeated over and over.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 5:22:23 GMT
"Must there be a Superman?" story, where Superman starts to worry if he's making humans too dependent on him. It questions the very concept of Superheroes.
I mean both.
Uh-huh, the storyline that led to Cap meeting Falcon was a preachfest. It was about Steve moving around from place to place as a Drifter, feeling like he has no real home and no idea what to do with his life (ignoring Avengers Mansion) and ending with him partnering with a Black Man (this was during the 60s).
How is that subtle, exactly?
What was woke about the story, though? But why not focus on Supergirl's stories first before Superman's? As Stan Lee states in the video, he was strongly opposed to bigotry, cruelty, racism, and sexism, and would occasionally reinforce that they were bad in the stories in his time overseeing the titles, but he, as a writer (not the case for all others), didn't like to preach, and wanted the reputation for Marvel Comics to be providers of escapist entertainment. I suppose your idea of preaching differs from Lee's. It was about questioning the role of the powerful in society and how they negative affect the less fortunate without realizing it, that's "Woke".
I take them all in one.
And as I said, the comics "preach" all the time. They were never Escapism.
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