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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 6:32:01 GMT
Equality will indeed win out in the long run. But pandering and dumbed down agendas are not helpful, and as a fan of good fiction I find them downright boring. Social commentary can be poignant and thought provoking, but it has to be done with intelligence and nuance. Most agenda driven fiction is not pure in its motivations. Some are full of double standards and hypocrisy. Not everything that appears to be about equality actually is Go watch "The Wire" or "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" and tell me those were done with subtlety or nuance. Okay, that’s a fair point. Sort of. My response to this though is that “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” was genuinely bold and envelope pushing for its time. A modern equivalent would have to be equally bold in regard to today’s society. If you’re gonna be blatant you better be bold or it’s just preachy and hollow. Still though, I maintain that commentary works best in the subtext, arising organically from the story and its themes. Hitting viewers over the head with it rarely works. If you want a good example in the McU of social commentary done right see the first Black Panther. That one had nuance and subtlety and the commentary came organically from the story. Wonderfully done!
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 12, 2023 9:11:58 GMT
They have the right to if they want to. He has the right to his opinions, as you do yours. You do not have to agree with him, but should at least respect his different view - as the saying goes, if we all thought alike, the world would be boring. You can call him into question as much as you wish, but you (and neither I) have participated in any classes where he has used the film as example, and you have not had conversation with him before, either. And that gives you the right to assume what I would have wanted? I suppose I should not be surprised, you have been a fallacy machine this whole thread and in another similar one. And people who actually saw the movie have the right to point out how Canto Bright was necessary for the entire 3rd Act to happen.
I base it on the nonstop complaints I've put up with for 7 years and how it often is the same stuff repeated over and over.
Never said a person who is in favor of the film couldn't make the argument. And you were wrong, imagine that?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 12, 2023 9:28:34 GMT
What was woke about the story, though? But why not focus on Supergirl's stories first before Superman's? As Stan Lee states in the video, he was strongly opposed to bigotry, cruelty, racism, and sexism, and would occasionally reinforce that they were bad in the stories in his time overseeing the titles, but he, as a writer (not the case for all others), didn't like to preach, and wanted the reputation for Marvel Comics to be providers of escapist entertainment. I suppose your idea of preaching differs from Lee's. It was about questioning the role of the powerful in society and how they negative affect the less fortunate without realizing it, that's "Woke".
I take them all in one.
And as I said, the comics "preach" all the time. They were never Escapism.
Doesn't sound woke from your summary, what particular moments in the story are very much so in the direction of being woke? Sounds like you wrote out the wrong superhero name and are trying to save face. It looks like your idea of preaching differs from Stan Lee, as does your perception on superhero comic books being about escapism.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 12, 2023 9:37:32 GMT
It was about questioning the role of the powerful in society and how they negative affect the less fortunate without realizing it, that's "Woke".
I take them all in one.
And as I said, the comics "preach" all the time. They were never Escapism.
Doesn't sound woke from your summary, what particular moments in the story are very much so in the direction of being woke? Sounds like you wrote out the wrong superhero name and are trying to save face. It looks like your idea of preaching differs from Stan Lee, as does your perception on superhero comic books being about escapism. Regarding that difference in "preaching"... The difference is that old-school comics included socio-political topics in order to make their stories more engaging and relatable. They added the socio-political commentary as a tool to improve the story. Nowadays it's very common to see the opposite. Where the story is written specifically to highlight the social commentary. Sometimes it's done so heavy-handed that the comic/show feels like it's simply being used as a vehicle to deliver the message rather than the message being used to enhance the show like it used to.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 12, 2023 11:57:53 GMT
Doesn't sound woke from your summary, what particular moments in the story are very much so in the direction of being woke? Sounds like you wrote out the wrong superhero name and are trying to save face. It looks like your idea of preaching differs from Stan Lee, as does your perception on superhero comic books being about escapism. Regarding that difference in "preaching"... The difference is that old-school comics included socio-political topics in order to make their stories more engaging and relatable. They added the socio-political commentary as a tool to improve the story. Nowadays it's very common to see the opposite. Where the story is written specifically to highlight the social commentary. Sometimes it's done so heavy-handed that the comic/show feels like it's simply being used as a vehicle to deliver the message rather than the message being used to enhance the show like it used to. I want to know where all these heavy-handed political stories are. I think just right of center is too radical for some folks.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 16:20:08 GMT
It was about questioning the role of the powerful in society and how they negative affect the less fortunate without realizing it, that's "Woke".
I take them all in one.
And as I said, the comics "preach" all the time. They were never Escapism.
Doesn't sound woke from your summary, what particular moments in the story are very much so in the direction of being woke? Sounds like you wrote out the wrong superhero name and are trying to save face. It looks like your idea of preaching differs from Stan Lee, as does your perception on superhero comic books being about escapism. Depends, because "Woke" is actually a Boogeyman word that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
Well, she showed up in Superman first and Superman also told social commentary stories.
There's no such thing as real Escapism, as I've discovered. And Lee may have changed his own mind over time.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 16:21:09 GMT
And people who actually saw the movie have the right to point out how Canto Bright was necessary for the entire 3rd Act to happen.
I base it on the nonstop complaints I've put up with for 7 years and how it often is the same stuff repeated over and over.
Never said a person who is in favor of the film couldn't make the argument. And you were wrong, imagine that? Then they shouldn't complain so much about it. I mean, do you see people saying "Cloud City was such an unnecessary waste of time in ESB!"?
Was I? If Rey were a useless shrieking damsel and Luke was the only real hero of the Sequels, would you really not be happier with that?
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 12, 2023 16:22:08 GMT
Regarding that difference in "preaching"... The difference is that old-school comics included socio-political topics in order to make their stories more engaging and relatable. They added the socio-political commentary as a tool to improve the story. Nowadays it's very common to see the opposite. Where the story is written specifically to highlight the social commentary. Sometimes it's done so heavy-handed that the comic/show feels like it's simply being used as a vehicle to deliver the message rather than the message being used to enhance the show like it used to. I want to know where all these heavy-handed political stories are. I think just right of center is too radical for some folks. It's probably the "Superman vs the KKK" story from a while back. Too Political for certain folks.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Feb 12, 2023 20:40:16 GMT
Was THE ETERNALS woke? I say no. But I am still trying to figure out why androids designed to fight monsters would need to have any sexual orientation at all. I guess the Celestials still wanted them to have fun? “Go forth, my children and aid the mortals! …And screw a few of em if you want. They’re pretty hot!” It probably is to someone. Let's see theres: Interracial couples Gay couple Women People of color Interracial sex on screen gay kiss Gender bent and race bent characters white guy is a villain Allegedly the film is a allegory for abortion it's directed by an asian woman
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 13, 2023 0:48:58 GMT
Doesn't sound woke from your summary, what particular moments in the story are very much so in the direction of being woke? Sounds like you wrote out the wrong superhero name and are trying to save face. It looks like your idea of preaching differs from Stan Lee, as does your perception on superhero comic books being about escapism. Depends, because "Woke" is actually a Boogeyman word that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
Well, she showed up in Superman first and Superman also told social commentary stories.
There's no such thing as real Escapism, as I've discovered. And Lee may have changed his own mind over time.
I don't think it should be a problem for you to cite a moment or more from the story given how at-odds you have been with what should and shouldn't be called "woke". So, saving face...Again. Many would disagree with your claim, some of which are professionals in the fields of art and entertainment. Lee never changed his mind over time, he kept his attitude consistent from when he started working in the field all the way to his retirement, the interview I shared was after he left Marvel in the early 00's.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 13, 2023 0:50:22 GMT
Never said a person who is in favor of the film couldn't make the argument. And you were wrong, imagine that? Then they shouldn't complain so much about it. I mean, do you see people saying "Cloud City was such an unnecessary waste of time in ESB!"?
Was I? If Rey were a useless shrieking damsel and Luke was the only real hero of the Sequels, would you really not be happier with that?
No, because it isn't widely considered to have been a waste of time in that film. No, I wouldn't have been a satisfied customer if Rey was a shrieking damsel and Luke was the real hero of the sequel trilogy.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 13, 2023 1:23:06 GMT
Depends, because "Woke" is actually a Boogeyman word that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
Well, she showed up in Superman first and Superman also told social commentary stories.
There's no such thing as real Escapism, as I've discovered. And Lee may have changed his own mind over time.
I don't think it should be a problem for you to cite a moment or more from the story given how at-odds you have been with what should and shouldn't be called "woke". So, saving face...Again. Many would disagree with your claim, some of which are professionals in the fields of art and entertainment. Lee never changed his mind over time, he kept his attitude consistent from when he started working in the field all the way to his retirement, the interview I shared was after he left Marvel in the early 00's. Superman grabs the collar of an abusive Plantation Owner for abusing one of his slaves. That's "Woke" by the standard, apparently.
Minor slip-up.
But his works were never real escapism.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 13, 2023 1:23:56 GMT
Then they shouldn't complain so much about it. I mean, do you see people saying "Cloud City was such an unnecessary waste of time in ESB!"?
Was I? If Rey were a useless shrieking damsel and Luke was the only real hero of the Sequels, would you really not be happier with that?
No, because it isn't widely considered to have been a waste of time in that film. No, I wouldn't have been a satisfied customer if Rey was a shrieking damsel and Luke was the real hero of the sequel trilogy. Which is a double standard, Cloud City could easily be excised from ESB.
Right, Rey should probably just die in TFA and not even both being in the other movies at all.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 13, 2023 1:45:07 GMT
I don't think it should be a problem for you to cite a moment or more from the story given how at-odds you have been with what should and shouldn't be called "woke". So, saving face...Again. Many would disagree with your claim, some of which are professionals in the fields of art and entertainment. Lee never changed his mind over time, he kept his attitude consistent from when he started working in the field all the way to his retirement, the interview I shared was after he left Marvel in the early 00's. Superman grabs the collar of an abusive Plantation Owner for abusing one of his slaves. That's "Woke" by the standard, apparently.
Minor slip-up.
But his works were never real escapism.
That doesn't sound "woke", that sounds like the right thing anyone would do, as cruelty and slavery are universally seen as being bad. You just admitted to trying to save face, I definitely am going to bring this up in the future. You may feel so, but Stan Lee saw his works as such.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 13, 2023 1:48:54 GMT
No, because it isn't widely considered to have been a waste of time in that film. No, I wouldn't have been a satisfied customer if Rey was a shrieking damsel and Luke was the real hero of the sequel trilogy. Which is a double standard, Cloud City could easily be excised from ESB.
Right, Rey should probably just die in TFA and not even both being in the other movies at all.
No, it's a difference of opinion, but I am not going to argue on this any further because everyone has their own reasons for believing so. Oh, stop it with this pathetic attempt at character disrespect, your desire to paint all opposition as having very problematic beliefs is going nowhere and only making you look like a fool.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 13, 2023 5:27:20 GMT
Superman grabs the collar of an abusive Plantation Owner for abusing one of his slaves. That's "Woke" by the standard, apparently.
Minor slip-up.
But his works were never real escapism.
That doesn't sound "woke", that sounds like the right thing anyone would do, as cruelty and slavery are universally seen as being bad. You just admitted to trying to save face, I definitely am going to bring this up in the future. You may feel so, but Stan Lee saw his works as such. It's "woke", by definition it's against prejudice and injustice.
Fine.
But they weren't, they never were.
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 13, 2023 5:27:56 GMT
Which is a double standard, Cloud City could easily be excised from ESB.
Right, Rey should probably just die in TFA and not even both being in the other movies at all.
No, it's a difference of opinion, but I am not going to argue on this any further because everyone has their own reasons for believing so. Oh, stop it with this pathetic attempt at character disrespect, your desire to paint all opposition as having very problematic beliefs is going nowhere and only making you look like a fool. You can't deny that the reaction to the very existence of the Sequels was negative from the start.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 13, 2023 6:18:51 GMT
That doesn't sound "woke", that sounds like the right thing anyone would do, as cruelty and slavery are universally seen as being bad. You just admitted to trying to save face, I definitely am going to bring this up in the future. You may feel so, but Stan Lee saw his works as such. It's "woke", by definition it's against prejudice and injustice.
Fine.
But they weren't, they never were.
Newsflash - being against prejudice and injustice isn't "woke", it is the morally right thing to be opposed to. Then you disagree with the originator of the characters and initial stories and overseer of later, and iconic, stories. You may be of the belief that Marvel in the 1960's to, say, when Lee retired, were "woke" and didn't aspire to be pure escapism, but that was not Lee's intention and vision of the company.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Feb 13, 2023 6:22:01 GMT
No, it's a difference of opinion, but I am not going to argue on this any further because everyone has their own reasons for believing so. Oh, stop it with this pathetic attempt at character disrespect, your desire to paint all opposition as having very problematic beliefs is going nowhere and only making you look like a fool. You can't deny that the reaction to the very existence of the Sequels was negative from the start. Trying to justify your bigotry doesn't make you look like any less of a fool.
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 13, 2023 6:46:19 GMT
It's "woke", by definition it's against prejudice and injustice.
Fine.
But they weren't, they never were.
Newsflash - being against prejudice and injustice isn't "woke", it is the morally right thing to be opposed to. Then you disagree with the originator of the characters and initial stories and overseer of later, and iconic, stories. You may be of the belief that Marvel in the 1960's to, say, when Lee retired, were "woke" and didn't aspire to be pure escapism, but that was not Lee's intention and vision of the company. Weird how only "woke" people can supposedly be against prejudice and injustice. Fighting against something that's wrong is a basic human principle, something that our race has been practicing for thousands of years and it predates such concepts are right vs. left, conservative vs. liberal, woke vs. non-woke, etc. That said, what does change is what we consider as injustice or prejudice. What was one considered just and righteous can nowadays be considered unjust and prejudiced, and vice versa.
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