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Post by clusium on Feb 27, 2023 0:27:51 GMT
Tell me, Isapop , how do you feel about the sexual union between 2 siblings or even 2 first generation cousins? Goodness, you already asked me that on the other thread, and I answered. Remember? You: Isapop, are you okay with 2 siblings or even 2 first generation cousins having sexual relations?Me: Any objections I have are simply of a visceral nature - call it "The ick factor". I won't try to cover it up with some "respectable" philosophical justification that falls apart under a little scrutiny. But that kind of covering up with a cloak of respectability appears to be exactly what the Catholic Church does when it says gay people are called to chastity.
But, sticking with the subject, with is legal marriage - marriage, not in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of the state - you now make no attempt to deny that, in fact, you DO support discrimination against gay people when it comes to equality under the law. It's not enough for you that they can never receive God's sacrament of marriage. If given your way, they also would never receive the state's contract called legal marriage. And people who think that an entire classification of other people should be treated under the law as second-class citizens have traditionally been tagged with a certain label. Sorry that you don't like being called a bigot when it comes to gay people. But the proverbial shoe fits. Is it bigotry to oppose incestuous marriage?
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Post by clusium on Feb 27, 2023 0:28:36 GMT
No we don't. We believe that anybody who has sex with a kid should be sitting in a jail cell, no matter who (((Bleep))) they are. "2356 Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them." (Emphasis mine.) Rape, according to the Catechism of the Catholic ChurchDespite what you say, Catholics said absolutely nothing until the Church got caught. Yes, it was swept under the rug, & yes, it was wrong.
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Post by Isapop on Feb 27, 2023 0:56:17 GMT
Goodness, you already asked me that on the other thread, and I answered. Remember? You: Isapop, are you okay with 2 siblings or even 2 first generation cousins having sexual relations?Me: Any objections I have are simply of a visceral nature - call it "The ick factor". I won't try to cover it up with some "respectable" philosophical justification that falls apart under a little scrutiny. But that kind of covering up with a cloak of respectability appears to be exactly what the Catholic Church does when it says gay people are called to chastity.
But, sticking with the subject, with is legal marriage - marriage, not in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of the state - you now make no attempt to deny that, in fact, you DO support discrimination against gay people when it comes to equality under the law. It's not enough for you that they can never receive God's sacrament of marriage. If given your way, they also would never receive the state's contract called legal marriage. And people who think that an entire classification of other people should be treated under the law as second-class citizens have traditionally been tagged with a certain label. Sorry that you don't like being called a bigot when it comes to gay people. But the proverbial shoe fits. Is it bigotry to oppose incestuous marriage? A false comparison. There is a sexual orientation (majority) that will attract people to the opposite sex. There is a sexual orientation (minority) that will attract people to the same sex. There is NO sexual orientation that will attract people to their siblings. There are secular reasons for the state to prohibit legal marriage between siblings. Their validity has not been challenged. You set the "bigotry standard" for yourself when you first said you were not supporting discrimination against gay people. So here, in your clear support for exactly such discrimination, you have met your own standard for bigotry.
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Post by clusium on Feb 27, 2023 1:13:12 GMT
Is it bigotry to oppose incestuous marriage? A false comparison. There is a sexual orientation (majority) that will attract people to the opposite sex. There is a sexual orientation (minority) that will attract people to the same sex. There is NO sexual orientation that will attract people to their siblings. There are secular reasons for the state to prohibit legal marriage between siblings. Their validity has not been challenged. You set the "bigotry standard" for yourself when you first said you were not supporting discrimination against gay people. So here, in your clear support for exactly such discrimination, you have met your own standard for bigotry. Nope. A genuine comparison. Are you for or against incestuous couples marrying (I'm against it, BTW)?
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Post by Isapop on Feb 27, 2023 1:21:17 GMT
A false comparison. There is a sexual orientation (majority) that will attract people to the opposite sex. There is a sexual orientation (minority) that will attract people to the same sex. There is NO sexual orientation that will attract people to their siblings. There are secular reasons for the state to prohibit legal marriage between siblings. Their validity has not been challenged. You set the "bigotry standard" for yourself when you first said you were not supporting discrimination against gay people. So here, in your clear support for exactly such discrimination, you have met your own standard for bigotry. Nope. A genuine comparison. Are you for or against incestuous couples marrying (I'm against it, BTW)? I never given the matter any serious thought. I'll wait for some brother/sister pair to go to court and challenge the law forbidding it. And then when I've heard the arguments on both sides, I'll give the matter some thought. When I've come down for or against them, I'll let you know. In the meantime, all of your attempts to divert attention from your support of discrimination against gay people are not going to work.
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Post by clusium on Feb 27, 2023 1:29:03 GMT
Nope. A genuine comparison. Are you for or against incestuous couples marrying (I'm against it, BTW)? I never given the matter any serious thought. I'll wait for some brother/sister pair to go to court and challenge the law forbidding it. And then when I've heard the arguments on both sides, I'll give the matter some thought. When I've come down for or against them, I'll let you know. In the meantime, all of your attempts to divert attention from your support of discrimination against gay people are not going to work. gameboy opposed gay marriage too. Was he a bigot?
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Post by Isapop on Feb 27, 2023 1:36:23 GMT
I never given the matter any serious thought. I'll wait for some brother/sister pair to go to court and challenge the law forbidding it. And then when I've heard the arguments on both sides, I'll give the matter some thought. When I've come down for or against them, I'll let you know. In the meantime, all of your attempts to divert attention from your support of discrimination against gay people are not going to work. gameboy opposed gay marriage too. Was he a bigot? Gameboy did not want to protect legal marriage from those awful gay people, as you do - which is why you are a bigot. He wanted to protect gay people from that awful legal marriage. He thought he was doing gay people a service - which made him simply wrong-headed instead of a bigot.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 27, 2023 1:40:59 GMT
Despite what you say, Catholics said absolutely nothing until the Church got caught. Yes, it was swept under the rug, & yes, it was wrong. And this is why any moral authority the churches, not just RCC, had is tainted beyond recompense. Please don’t condemn sinners until you’ve stopped your own sinning. This is one Jesus’ fundamental teachings and the reason he condemned the dogmatic religious institutions of his day. His message is about loving others, all others, as if they are God themselves. And not in just this era, but historically the churches have not been good shepherds. That they fall into sin is not what fails them and us, it’s the shear arrogance of claiming moral impunity and absolute authority over another human’s free will and conscience. Your faith’s rules state that it is a grave for two people of the same sex to cohabitate, set up a household, and engage in sexual relations. Therefore, do not engage in it. However, those are your private set of morals that cannot be imposed on other adult humans who have another set of private morals and who have inalienable rights guaranteed under the Constitution. The Bible does not override that. I do not, nor never have hated the Christian or Jewish religions nor the teachings of Jesus. I don’t regret my time as a Christian. I do not like the authoritarian Church hierarchy or the authoritarian churchmen and women who enable it. But, I do admire the Christian who preaches the Gospel, but only uses words when necessary.
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Post by clusium on Feb 27, 2023 1:44:18 GMT
Yes, it was swept under the rug, & yes, it was wrong. And this is why any moral authority the churches, not just RCC, had is tainted beyond recompense. Please don’t condemn sinners until you’ve stopped your own sinning. This is one Jesus’ fundamental teachings and the reason he condemned the dogmatic religious institutions of his day. His message is about loving others, all others, as if they are God themselves. And not in just this era, but historically the churches have not been good shepherds. That they fall into sin is not what fails them and us, it’s the shear arrogance of claiming moral impunity and absolute authority over another human’s free will and conscience. Your faith’s rules state that it is a grave for two people of the same sex to cohabitate, set up a household, and engage in sexual relations. Therefore, do not engage in it. However, those are your private set of morals that cannot be imposed on other adult humans who have another set of private morals and who have inalienable rights guaranteed under the Constitution. The Bible does not override that. I do not, nor never have hated the Christian or Jewish religions nor the teachings of Jesus. I don’t regret my time as a Christian. I do not like the authoritarian Church hierarchy or the authoritarian churchmen and women who enable it. But, I do admire the Christian who preaches the Gospel, but only uses words when necessary. I have never condemned any sinners. I acknowledge that I am a sinner myself.
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Post by clusium on Feb 27, 2023 1:47:59 GMT
gameboy opposed gay marriage too. Was he a bigot? Gameboy did not want to protect legal marriage from those awful gay people, as you do - which is why you are a bigot. He wanted to protect gay people from that awful legal marriage. He thought he was doing gay people a service - which made him simply wrong-headed instead of a bigot. You can't have it both ways, Isapop. It seems you want to tell others what their opinions or values should be & anybody who disagrees with you is a bigot. That is being a dictator.
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Post by Isapop on Feb 27, 2023 1:52:03 GMT
However, those are your private set of morals that cannot be imposed on other adult humans who have another set of private morals and who have inalienable rights guaranteed under the Constitution. What, I suppose, gets me is how some people can't (or refuse to) see how no one is trying force them to regard a gay couple's relationship as what they would regard a true marriage.
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Post by Isapop on Feb 27, 2023 1:54:10 GMT
Gameboy did not want to protect legal marriage from those awful gay people, as you do - which is why you are a bigot. He wanted to protect gay people from that awful legal marriage. He thought he was doing gay people a service - which made him simply wrong-headed instead of a bigot. You can't have it both ways, Isapop . It seems you want to tell others what their opinions or values should be & anybody who disagrees with you is a bigot. That is being a dictator. How ridiculous you have now become. I've already explained exactly what makes you a bigot. Read it again; you seem to have forgotten.
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Post by clusium on Feb 27, 2023 2:04:15 GMT
You can't have it both ways, Isapop . It seems you want to tell others what their opinions or values should be & anybody who disagrees with you is a bigot. That is being a dictator. How ridiculous you have now become. I've already explained exactly what makes you a bigot. Read it again; you seem to have forgotten. No. All you just showed is that you are a dictator. You think you have a right to tell other people what their opinions should be. You do not. I am not changing my values just to appease you. I do not have any ill will against people with same sex attraction. But, that does not mean I will bow to public pressure to lie. You are entitled to your opinions about same sex marriage, Isapop. But you have no right to tell me what mine should be.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 27, 2023 2:07:17 GMT
And this is why any moral authority the churches, not just RCC, had is tainted beyond recompense. Please don’t condemn sinners until you’ve stopped your own sinning. This is one Jesus’ fundamental teachings and the reason he condemned the dogmatic religious institutions of his day. His message is about loving others, all others, as if they are God themselves. And not in just this era, but historically the churches have not been good shepherds. That they fall into sin is not what fails them and us, it’s the shear arrogance of claiming moral impunity and absolute authority over another human’s free will and conscience. Your faith’s rules state that it is a grave for two people of the same sex to cohabitate, set up a household, and engage in sexual relations. Therefore, do not engage in it. However, those are your private set of morals that cannot be imposed on other adult humans who have another set of private morals and who have inalienable rights guaranteed under the Constitution. The Bible does not override that. I do not, nor never have hated the Christian or Jewish religions nor the teachings of Jesus. I don’t regret my time as a Christian. I do not like the authoritarian Church hierarchy or the authoritarian churchmen and women who enable it. But, I do admire the Christian who preaches the Gospel, but only uses words when necessary. I have never condemned any sinners. I acknowledge that I am a sinner myself. By condemning their lives you have.
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Post by clusium on Feb 27, 2023 2:07:50 GMT
I have never condemned any sinners. I acknowledge that I am a sinner myself. By condemning their lives you have. Wrong.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 27, 2023 2:17:13 GMT
However, those are your private set of morals that cannot be imposed on other adult humans who have another set of private morals and who have inalienable rights guaranteed under the Constitution. What, I suppose, gets me is how some people can't (or refuse to) see how no one is trying force them to regard a gay couple's relationship as what they would regard a true marriage. Making gay marriage as a legal right does not mean any church is being forced to accept it as no longer sinful behavior or their pastors to perform such marriages. However, that seems to be the great leap in logic they express in their claims of Woke persecution. The churches have adjusted well to divorce and remarriage sin Jesus himself condemned. Even the RCC has adopted “annulments” as means to cope with the growing number of divorced Catholics, so it’s not just about “sin” but general homophobia.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 27, 2023 2:24:00 GMT
By condemning their lives you have. Wrong. If you can treat gay people just as you would a son or daughter and show them that love, then you are not sinning for lack of charity. And I don’t think you would disown your child nor prevent him or her from marrying the person they love. Why anyone else?
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Post by Isapop on Feb 27, 2023 2:35:29 GMT
How ridiculous you have now become. I've already explained exactly what makes you a bigot. Read it again; you seem to have forgotten. I do not have any ill will against people with same sex attraction. But you do. You think that gay people should not be treated as equal under the law as straight people. That's as simple and clear an intention of ill will as one could ask for.I wouldn't expect anyone to change their values just appease another.I haven't told you what your opinion should be. But I've informed you that the opinion you hold is, by the standard that you yourself set, a bigoted one.
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Post by Isapop on Feb 27, 2023 2:47:20 GMT
Even the RCC has adopted “annulments” as means to cope with the growing number of divorced Catholics, so it’s not just about “sin” but general homophobia. Your mention of divorced Catholics reminds me of another aspect of this. Generally speaking (annulments aside), the Catholic Church will not marry a previously divorced person, and I don't hear Catholics opposing the fact that divorced persons can get married by the state outside of the Church. But let the state marry gay people outside of the Church, and now they're outraged.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 27, 2023 3:12:06 GMT
Even the RCC has adopted “annulments” as means to cope with the growing number of divorced Catholics, so it’s not just about “sin” but general homophobia. Your mention of divorced Catholics reminds me of another aspect of this. Generally speaking (annulments aside), the Catholic Church will not marry a previously divorced person, and I don't hear Catholics opposing the fact that divorced persons can get married by the state outside of the Church. But let the state marry gay people outside of the Church, and now they're outraged. Exactly. If re-marriage for non-Catholics is okay by them, then they can learn to tolerate gay marriage in society too. If it’s as evil they claim, then the gays will burn, not them…but so will all the re-married or non-married non-gay people who are living in sin. Any church that thinks it’s a man’s holy right to rape his wife when she does not want to have sex, has little advice I need to hear. And I know how to read the Bible myself without someone telling me what it says.
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