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Abortion
Jul 13, 2023 20:17:25 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 20:17:25 GMT
It strikes me that the far right fundos so vehemently anti abortion in the US are the same people that support the death penalty, cheer migrants dying at the border, love guns, support wars, and think that poor people should not get welfare or healthcare and just be allowed to die in poverty. Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury... It's sickening how you have twisted Christianity to serve your own personal material greed.
So how many rapists and murderers on death row are you planning to adopt? You know, since you're against killing them, you damn well better be willing to take them in and provide for them, otherwise you're just a hypocrite.
That makes no sense whatsoever... Why would I be 'adopting' murderers and rapists? They may need to be separated from society in prisons and/or mental health facilities, in humane conditions I might add. But I certainly disagree with state sanctioned murder. Your 'right to life' agenda is very selective and twisted. Very unchristian.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 13, 2023 22:09:04 GMT
So how many rapists and murderers on death row are you planning to adopt? You know, since you're against killing them, you damn well better be willing to take them in and provide for them, otherwise you're just a hypocrite.
That makes no sense whatsoever... Why would I be 'adopting' murderers and rapists? They may need to be separated from society in prisons and/or mental health facilities, in humane conditions I might add. But I certainly disagree with state sanctioned murder. Your 'right to life' agenda is very selective and twisted. Very unchristian.
It's the pro-choice's argument, that you ONLY are pro-life IF you adopt all those unwanted babies, otherwise you're only pro-birth and otherwise just want them to die afterwards, it does not matter how many groceries you donate to the food bank, how much you donate to literacy programs and school fundraisers, how many school supplies or toys you donate to local drives, how much of your time you give mentoring and tutoring kids, etc., none of that matters, you ONLY actually care if you adopt them. So by the same token, you can ONLY care about death row inmates if you plan to personally take them into your home and provide for their every need, otherwise you don't give a shit if they get the needle.
And I can't help finding it ironic the side that makes it clear they ONLY care about kids *after* they're born, are always VERY slow to stand up and say 'I adopted/foster those kids so they can have a better life', instead they carry on about how HORRIBLE the foster system is and ALL those kids are better off dead and how all those kids will NEVER be adopted. They're so well versed in the ins and outs of foster care they don't even realize most kids aren't *available* to adopt, they're only being put in a temporary home until the courts order them reunited with their birth families, or that there are roughly 50 couples looking to adopt for every baby in the government system and the waiting list can stretch out for years. Oh no, NOBODY'S trying to give those kids a good home or better life, they just want to force the mothers to give birth.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 13, 2023 22:12:30 GMT
If you want to play the worst case scenario card, then when I say THOSE abortions are the only ones that should be legal and all other, ie: convenience, pettiness, 'I don't want to be responsible, I want to party!', should be outlawed, you agree, correct? Otherwise you're admitting by omission the instances you mentioned really aren't a priority for you.
Why should I suddenly agree that only those worst case examples should be allowed when others (below a legal threshold) should not? The priority for me and others of the same opinion in regards to abortion is that rights should be restored to the previous, reasonable level. I am naturally pleased though that you at least have the humanity to allow abortion in some desperate situations. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. abcnews.go.com/US/rape-exceptions-abortions-bans-complicated-reality/story?id=88237926time.com/6198062/rape-victim-10-abortion-indiana-ohio/"In practice, health and life exceptions to bans have often proven to be unworkable, except in the most extreme circumstances, and have sometimes prevented physicians from practicing evidence-based medicine. Abortion bans and restrictions have led physicians to delay providing miscarriage management care. Many states allow for the removal of a dead fetus or embryo, but pregnant people who are actively miscarrying may be denied care if there is still detectable fetal cardiac activity or until the miscarriage puts the life of the pregnant person in jeopardy. Mental health exceptions are rare despite the fact that 20% of pregnancy-related deaths are attributable to mental health conditions. Law enforcement involvement is often required to document rape and incest, which often prevents survivors from accessing abortion care. Furthermore, survivors in states where abortion care is restricted can have difficulty finding an abortion provider. In many states there is more than one abortion ban in the books, in some of those states, the exception provisions in the bans are often at odds with each other. These multiple bans and varying exceptions create confusion among patients and providers." www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/a-review-of-exceptions-in-state-abortions-bans-implications-for-the-provision-of-abortion-services/
There are 15,000 federal gun laws currently in effect across this country, and when good people are killed because they weren't allowed to own a gun/carry it/etc., somehow that's not a direct result of any of those 15,000 laws imposing on their RIGHTS. So if good people have to deal with 15,000 laws telling them what they can and can't do to defend their very lives, women can deal with a few restrictions on abortion. No other country doles legal abortions out as willy nilly no questions asked as America. In Europe a woman HAS to see a therapist before she can get an abortion. And we're always told we should be as open minded and progressive as Europe. So you oppose women getting a mental wellness green light before chopping their baby to pieces?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 14, 2023 18:51:54 GMT
No other country doles legal abortions out as willy nilly no questions asked as America. Even after the recent changes? Substantiation please. Very often though the mandatory councilling is dseigned to have a chilling effect viz: "Laws in twelve European countries require women to undergo mandatory counselling or receive mandatory information from their doctors prior to abortion. These countries are: Albania, Armenia, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Georgia, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Lithuania, Netherlands, Russian Federation and Slovak Republic. In a number of these countries, such as Germany and Hungary, laws require biased and directive counselling deliberately intended to influence women’s decision-making and dissuade them from having an abortion. Mandatory counseling
requirements undermine women’s
human rights and are particularly
harmful when they involve the
provision of biased information.The WHO advises that counselling prior to abortion should never be mandatory and that provision of information about abortion should always be unbiased... reproductiverights.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/European-abortion-law-a-comparative-review.pdf But I have already told what advice and help is mandated across the States so implying otherwise is nonsense. Please read back. In any case this is a separate issue from withdrawing abortion rights. Another strawman. Surely you can do better than putting words into my mouth again and again?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 14, 2023 19:15:35 GMT
That makes no sense whatsoever... Why would I be 'adopting' murderers and rapists? They may need to be separated from society in prisons and/or mental health facilities, in humane conditions I might add. But I certainly disagree with state sanctioned murder. Your 'right to life' agenda is very selective and twisted. Very unchristian.
It's the pro-choice's argument, that you ONLY are pro-life IF you adopt all those unwanted babies, otherwise you're only pro-birth and otherwise just want them to die afterwards, it does not matter how many groceries you donate to the food bank, how much you donate to literacy programs and school fundraisers, how many school supplies or toys you donate to local drives, how much of your time you give mentoring and tutoring kids, etc., none of that matters, you ONLY actually care if you adopt them. So by the same token, you can ONLY care about death row inmates if you plan to personally take them into your home and provide for their every need, otherwise you don't give a shit if they get the needle.
And I can't help finding it ironic the side that makes it clear they ONLY care about kids *after* they're born, are always VERY slow to stand up and say 'I adopted/foster those kids so they can have a better life', instead they carry on about how HORRIBLE the foster system is and ALL those kids are better off dead and how all those kids will NEVER be adopted. They're so well versed in the ins and outs of foster care they don't even realize most kids aren't *available* to adopt, they're only being put in a temporary home until the courts order them reunited with their birth families, or that there are roughly 50 couples looking to adopt for every baby in the government system and the waiting list can stretch out for years. Oh no, NOBODY'S trying to give those kids a good home or better life, they just want to force the mothers to give birth.
Unfortunately forcing the poor (who are disproportionately represented in the figures) to give birth indeed has negative effects, which inevitably influences their children: " women who were denied an abortion experience a large increase in financial distress that is sustained for several years " NATIONAL BUREAU OF ECONOMIC RESEARCH paper www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26662/w26662.pdf "when compared with people who received a desired abortion, people who were turned away from abortion services and gave birth were more likely to live in poverty, less likely to be fully employed, and more likely to receive public assistance at 6 months — differences that persisted for at least 4 years. If more people are [npw]denied the option of abortion, the negative short- and long-term consequences of unintended pregnancy could have widespread effects at individual, family, and societal levels." The New England Journal of Medicine www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2119364"we find evidence of a large and persistent increase in financial distress for the women who were denied an abortion that is sustained for several years. Being denied an abortion increases the amount of debt 30 days or more past due by 78 percent and increases negative public records, such as bankruptcies and evictions, by 81 percent." www-personal.umich.edu/~mille/MWF_Turnaway.pdf You would do better to stop such exaggerated sarcasm btw, which tends to drown out any serious points you are hoping to make. If there are any,
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Post by Admin on Jul 14, 2023 22:58:32 GMT
It's a twisted mind that thinks life is forced when it isn't terminated.
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jackbrock
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Post by jackbrock on Jul 15, 2023 0:48:43 GMT
It's a twisted mind that thinks life is forced when it isn't terminated. It's the lack of the option to have an abortion and being forced to carry the fetus to term that can make life hard for people. It's the dictating the policy by people who likely never have to deal with making that choice (like celibate clergy) that makes life hard. I wonder what these same people would do if the position was reversed. If a priest had sex with an underage kid, he would stand to lose a lot. I wonder if that same priest or nun would take steps to terminate the pregnancy to eradicate the evidence.
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Post by Admin on Jul 15, 2023 1:00:32 GMT
It's a twisted mind that thinks life is forced when it isn't terminated. It's the lack of the option to have an abortion and being forced to carry the fetus to term that can make life hard for people. It's the dictating the policy by people who likely never have to deal with making that choice (like celibate clergy) that makes life hard. I wonder what these same people would do if the position was reversed. If a priest had sex with an underage kid, he would stand to lose a lot. I wonder if that same priest or nun would take steps to terminate the pregnancy to eradicate the evidence. Same yo-yo, different string.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 15, 2023 4:09:45 GMT
It's a twisted mind that thinks life is forced when it isn't terminated. It's the lack of the option to have an abortion and being forced to carry the fetus to term that can make life hard for people. It's the dictating the policy by people who likely never have to deal with making that choice (like celibate clergy) that makes life hard. I wonder what these same people would do if the position was reversed. If a priest had sex with an underage kid, he would stand to lose a lot. I wonder if that same priest or nun would take steps to terminate the pregnancy to eradicate the evidence.
In one of Echo Heron's books about nurses, there was an account of a nun who came in to the hospital clearly suffering from post-birth complications but she denied ever giving birth. They tied her back to a motel room with a dead newborn in the wastebasket. I could never understand how they think God would be so much more forgiving of murdering a baby than the unmarried sex that created the child in the first place.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 15, 2023 11:06:58 GMT
It's the lack of the option to have an abortion and being forced to carry the fetus to term that can make life hard for people. It's the dictating the policy by people who likely never have to deal with making that choice (like celibate clergy) that makes life hard. I wonder what these same people would do if the position was reversed. If a priest had sex with an underage kid, he would stand to lose a lot. I wonder if that same priest or nun would take steps to terminate the pregnancy to eradicate the evidence.
In one of Echo Heron's books about nurses, there was an account of a nun who came in to the hospital clearly suffering from post-birth complications but she denied ever giving birth. They tied her back to a motel room with a dead newborn in the wastebasket. I could never understand how they think God would be so much more forgiving of murdering a baby than the unmarried sex that created the child in the first place.
Considering that the maker and mover of universes has at times apparently severely condemned the eating of shellfish and the collecting of firewood on Sundays, who knows?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 15, 2023 11:23:47 GMT
It's a twisted mind that thinks life is forced when it isn't terminated. When choice is removed, in a binary situation, what is left is necessary forced on the reluctant individual. But thanks for the compliment.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 15, 2023 15:57:22 GMT
It's a twisted mind that thinks life is forced when it isn't terminated. When choice is removed, in a binary situation, what is left is necessary forced on the reluctant individual. But thanks for the compliment.
Women already make their choice when they have sex and can't be bothered with protection, which according to the National Library of Medicine, accounts for over 50% of unwanted pregnancies. Another 40% only used it in a half assed way, like only putting a condom on for PART of the time, or not taking enough birth control pills. Their actions dictate NOT getting pregnant is NOT a priority for them.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 15, 2023 18:57:55 GMT
When choice is removed, in a binary situation, what is left is necessary forced on the reluctant individual. But thanks for the compliment.
Women already make their choice when they have sex and can't be bothered with protection, which according to the National Library of Medicine, accounts for over 50% of unwanted pregnancies. Another 40% only used it in a half assed way, like only putting a condom on for PART of the time, or not taking enough birth control pills. Their actions dictate NOT getting pregnant is NOT a priority for them.
That is not the choice which is under discussion. I think you know that. And it appears you are back to victim blaming.
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Post by Admin on Jul 15, 2023 20:31:53 GMT
It's a twisted mind that thinks life is forced when it isn't terminated. When choice is removed, in a binary situation, what is left is necessary forced on the reluctant individual. But thanks for the compliment. The choice to terminate your life has been removed. Are you ok with that?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 15, 2023 22:16:58 GMT
When choice is removed, in a binary situation, what is left is necessary forced on the reluctant individual. But thanks for the compliment. The choice to terminate your life has been removed. Are you ok with that? In fact no, since with almost 70% of respondents on this board, I am in favour of assisted suicide. I would hate to be forced to go on living in endless pain and suffering.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 15, 2023 22:46:51 GMT
Women already make their choice when they have sex and can't be bothered with protection, which according to the National Library of Medicine, accounts for over 50% of unwanted pregnancies. Another 40% only used it in a half assed way, like only putting a condom on for PART of the time, or not taking enough birth control pills. Their actions dictate NOT getting pregnant is NOT a priority for them.
That is not the choice which is under discussion. I think you know that. And it appears you are back to victim blaming.
You're not a victim when you're a willing participant. Do women think babies come from a cabbage patch? No. When their dog/cat gets pregnant, do they wonder 'now HOW did that happen?' No. Nor do they wonder 'how do I make sure this doesn't happen again? Oh, get them fixed'. They're as much victims as DUI drivers.
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Post by Admin on Jul 15, 2023 23:53:05 GMT
The choice to terminate your life has been removed. Are you ok with that? In fact no, since with almost 70% of respondents on this board, I am in favour of assisted suicide. I would hate to be forced to go on living in endless pain and suffering. I support assisted suicide as well, but abortion isn't suicide.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 16, 2023 0:05:46 GMT
In fact no, since with almost 70% of respondents on this board, I am in favour of assisted suicide. I would hate to be forced to go on living in endless pain and suffering. I support assisted suicide as well, but abortion isn't suicide.
A better parallel there would be suicide and miscarriage, but even that would be a shoddy analogy.
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Post by Admin on Jul 16, 2023 0:32:39 GMT
I support assisted suicide as well, but abortion isn't suicide. A better parallel there would be suicide and miscarriage, but even that would be a shoddy analogy.
Miscarriages aren't abortions, either.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 16, 2023 1:03:51 GMT
A better parallel there would be suicide and miscarriage, but even that would be a shoddy analogy.
Miscarriages aren't abortions, either.
Try explaining that to the 'pro-choice' people. They don't see any difference between something naturally occurring without anyone's knowledge or assistance, and paying someone to deliberately dismember a baby. I guess they also think smothering a baby with a pillow is the same thing as SIDS, and a gunshot to the face is equal to natural causes.
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