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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 22, 2023 23:07:00 GMT
General consensus says otherwise, friend. If they weren't as good as you believe so, then they wouldn't be as well regarded today. Much complained means it was much talked about, thank you for supporting my argument. Indiana Jones is one of the most iconic heroes in film history, a new film should be making good bank but that is not the case for Dial of Destiny due to its unnecessarily large budget and mixed reception from critics and consumers alike. No, they aren't. You have to pay money to have them. And Disney+ has been a much talked about service since it launched a few years ago. No, I'm stating the facts - Secret Invasion isn't the crowd-pleasing success Disney was hoping for and it's coming to a close next week. It will never have the same impact as Breaking Bad or The Wire due its lackluster writing and shorter window of time between premiere and finale, meaning it cannot improve. "General Consensus" is an empty word nowadays. Like I said, it was their acting that elevated the material along with Alexandra Daddario's naked body. Enough that viewers say "I don't care about the plot, I just like seeing the actors act".
Indy was Iconic for the 80s, Dial of Destiny shows he doesn't work in the modern era. It's the same problem Dirty Harry had when they did "The Dead Pool".
Yes they are, you get them as part of overall cable packages for multiple TV channels and/or free with new activation for a while. D+ isn't any of that and doesn't even have it's full material accessible outside of the US.
IE, it simply wasn't given the chance that either of those shows got.
Nice try, but I am not going to fall for any of your endless trap debates. I know exactly how this will continue to play out, and I know you will keep it going on as long as you get a response. Bottom line, the series isn't high quality television, it isn't doing well in the ratings, and there is no anticipation for its finale next week. Marvel Studios should have done better.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 22, 2023 23:13:40 GMT
In other words, an opinion - not a fact. Westworld after S1 was very much plot driven, not character driven. Didn't watch beyond the first season, so I can only comment to a point. Your opinion differs from Skaathar's evidently, as such whether or not Westworld is more plot or character driven is subjective.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 23, 2023 2:55:51 GMT
Well I'm glad you admit that that statement wasn't actually said in TFATWS but is instead your own interpretation. Not often you admit to stuff like that. I daresay you're actually maturing. But then again, you seem to be implying that Westworld isn't class but Secret Wars is. So maybe you're not that mature after all. Besides, why are we even discussing class? We're just talking about slow-burn and character-driven shows. TFATWS says enough to get the point across. This isn't Nolan, where they stop everything to spell it out for you in a big awkward unnatural exposition infodump.
Westworld isn't class, the closest it came was S1 and even that needed cheap tricks to pretend to be profound.
So just to clarify, do you feel like She-Hulk is classier than Westworld then?
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 23, 2023 2:56:47 GMT
Westworld after S1 was very much plot driven, not character driven. Didn't watch beyond the first season, so I can only comment to a point. Your opinion differs from Skaathar's evidently, as such whether or not Westworld is more plot or character driven is subjective. There's definitely a plot, and it's fairly complex, but the main drive of the show is the massive character development of multiple character arcs.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 23, 2023 3:12:58 GMT
"General Consensus" is an empty word nowadays. Like I said, it was their acting that elevated the material along with Alexandra Daddario's naked body. Enough that viewers say "I don't care about the plot, I just like seeing the actors act".
Indy was Iconic for the 80s, Dial of Destiny shows he doesn't work in the modern era. It's the same problem Dirty Harry had when they did "The Dead Pool".
Yes they are, you get them as part of overall cable packages for multiple TV channels and/or free with new activation for a while. D+ isn't any of that and doesn't even have it's full material accessible outside of the US.
IE, it simply wasn't given the chance that either of those shows got.
Nice try, but I am not going to fall for any of your endless trap debates. I know exactly how this will continue to play out, and I know you will keep it going on as long as you get a response. Bottom line, the series isn't high quality television, it isn't doing well in the ratings, and there is no anticipation for its finale next week. Marvel Studios should have done better. "It isn't doing well in the ratings and there is no anticipation for its finale next week"
That's what happened in Breaking Bad S1 and Wire S1.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 23, 2023 3:13:17 GMT
TFATWS says enough to get the point across. This isn't Nolan, where they stop everything to spell it out for you in a big awkward unnatural exposition infodump.
Westworld isn't class, the closest it came was S1 and even that needed cheap tricks to pretend to be profound.
So just to clarify, do you feel like She-Hulk is classier than Westworld then? Less pretentious and head up its rear, so yes.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 23, 2023 3:13:42 GMT
Didn't watch beyond the first season, so I can only comment to a point. Your opinion differs from Skaathar 's evidently, as such whether or not Westworld is more plot or character driven is subjective. There's definitely a plot, and it's fairly complex, but the main drive of the show is the massive character development of multiple character arcs. It's just a robot rebellion story with a lot of fluff, that's all it ended up being.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 23, 2023 4:22:09 GMT
Nice try, but I am not going to fall for any of your endless trap debates. I know exactly how this will continue to play out, and I know you will keep it going on as long as you get a response. Bottom line, the series isn't high quality television, it isn't doing well in the ratings, and there is no anticipation for its finale next week. Marvel Studios should have done better. "It isn't doing well in the ratings and there is no anticipation for its finale next week"
That's what happened in Breaking Bad S1 and Wire S1.
Except the first seasons of Breaking Bad and The Wire were well received, and both would go on for four more seasons that allowed its creatives to take more interesting directions for the characters and, thus, had more time to build enough chatter about them amongst general television viewers. Secret Invasion is a mini-series that will conclude in a matter of days, there will not be a second season, and whatever threads there are left in its story are likely to be continued elsewhere in a different product from Marvel Studios.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 23, 2023 4:36:33 GMT
So just to clarify, do you feel like She-Hulk is classier than Westworld then? Less pretentious and head up its rear, so yes. She-Hulk I would argue was pretty pretentious. It tried too hard to come across as feminist but instead often came across as being pretty misandrist, and its humor was more cynical than clever like it was trying to present itself as.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 23, 2023 9:00:32 GMT
There's definitely a plot, and it's fairly complex, but the main drive of the show is the massive character development of multiple character arcs. It's just a robot rebellion story with a lot of fluff, that's all it ended up being. You mean the robots who became self aware, developed different characteristics and personalities, started doing a lot of self-reflecting and character growth? Sure dude, that certainly doesn't sound like it's character-driven to me. /sarcasm Then again you probably think She-Hulk has better character development than this. Am I right?
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 23, 2023 14:21:08 GMT
"It isn't doing well in the ratings and there is no anticipation for its finale next week"
That's what happened in Breaking Bad S1 and Wire S1.
Except the first seasons of Breaking Bad and The Wire were well received, and both would go on for four more seasons that allowed its creatives to take more interesting directions for the characters and, thus, had more time to build enough chatter about them amongst general television viewers. Secret Invasion is a mini-series that will conclude in a matter of days, there will not be a second season, and whatever threads there are left in its story are likely to be continued elsewhere in a different product from Marvel Studios. And if either had just been 1 season shows with no continuation, you wouldn't be saying that about either. You'd instead focus on their flaws.
See how that goes? Base them on S1s alone in this case and all 3 are comparable.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 23, 2023 14:22:18 GMT
Less pretentious and head up its rear, so yes. She-Hulk I would argue was pretty pretentious. It tried too hard to come across as feminist but instead often came across as being pretty misandrist, and its humor was more cynical than clever like it was trying to present itself as. Eh, rather true to the comics then. But considering how so many were determined to hate the show before it debuted and were against its very existence this reaction isn't surprising
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 23, 2023 14:23:54 GMT
It's just a robot rebellion story with a lot of fluff, that's all it ended up being. You mean the robots who became self aware, developed different characteristics and personalities, started doing a lot of self-reflecting and character growth? Sure dude, that certainly doesn't sound like it's character-driven to me. /sarcasm Then again you probably think She-Hulk has better character development than this. Am I right? Aside from Dolores and Thandie Newtons' character, that didn't really happen. And even with her it was still due to her being programmed as a "failsafe" if the Rebellion failed.
I'm talking more about William who went from meek and milquetoast to a sociopath in 2 days of his life.
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Post by Skaathar on Jul 23, 2023 16:25:18 GMT
You mean the robots who became self aware, developed different characteristics and personalities, started doing a lot of self-reflecting and character growth? Sure dude, that certainly doesn't sound like it's character-driven to me. /sarcasm Then again you probably think She-Hulk has better character development than this. Am I right? Aside from Dolores and Thandie Newtons' character, that didn't really happen. And even with her it was still due to her being programmed as a "failsafe" if the Rebellion failed.
I'm talking more about William who went from meek and milquetoast to a sociopath in 2 days of his life.
I take it you didn't really watch past the first season then? There's a handful of other androids that went through massive character arcs (like Bernard) but I'm not going to narrate the whole story for you. Besides, there's really no requirement to have multiple characters go through a character arc for a show to be considered character-driven. You just admitted yourself that at least 2 of them had, therefore you've proven yourself wrong and you now agree with me the show is character driven.
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Post by Cat on Jul 23, 2023 18:51:17 GMT
The most recent episode closed with Fury seeming to get his groove back, but the story seems like a spent force. The plot of this episodes could have been an opening scene before the opening credit in the next episode. I hope it's setting up for Fury to get physical but it seems like an awful tease to draw out one episode of Fury whooping ass like it's 2012, and there's no guarantee that will happen either.
Gravik's plan right now seems confused to me. Either he's making it too personal for Fury or he's lost it. He seemed too measured to lose his temper and thusly his plans for Fury because he's angry. His iron fist is getting rusty way too fast. It seems like he's forfeiting his man of the people role and turned full bad guy. His plan doesn't make sense to me because it puts the Skrulls in the crosshairs of the Earth governments, so even if the idea is to panic the NATO powers into unilaterally striking Russia to create chaos, I don't get what he wants in the aftermath except to rub it in Fury's face like a dog in shit that he failed, but what's the point? It's not consistent with Gravik's character, imo.
It's a shame with only one episode left we didn't get to see more of Olivia Coleman. Now that it's clear she's on the side of good. I was on the fence before, which I attribute to no choice but to put her on the back burner while the dealt with G'iah, but it's starting to look like her mother was either a red herring or just won't be resolved.
The pacing for me has been an issue since the 2nd episode. I think it's because they almost all seem like they could have started and ended at different points. If you took the same 3 or whatever hours worth of footage that make the episodes and put different beginning and endpoints on them it might flow better.
Gravik though began, for me, as the most promising lead in the show and I'm not buying his plans falling apart now, least of all to a short temper. Still, he has powers I can only describe as Changeling like powers like the Founders from Star Trek, and he looks really dangerous. Was momentarily surprised they killed Talos but there's too many players on the pitch. They needed to get at least one out.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 23, 2023 21:37:49 GMT
Except the first seasons of Breaking Bad and The Wire were well received, and both would go on for four more seasons that allowed its creatives to take more interesting directions for the characters and, thus, had more time to build enough chatter about them amongst general television viewers. Secret Invasion is a mini-series that will conclude in a matter of days, there will not be a second season, and whatever threads there are left in its story are likely to be continued elsewhere in a different product from Marvel Studios. And if either had just been 1 season shows with no continuation, you wouldn't be saying that about either. You'd instead focus on their flaws.
See how that goes? Base them on S1s alone in this case and all 3 are comparable.
"And if..." but that is not the case, both Breaking Bad and The Wire told long form storytelling in the span of five seasons of television and were critically acclaimed right from the start. So, your argument doesn't work - like, at all. You would have a better time using examples of actual other mini-series for your argument, but of course if you did so you wouldn't be able to bait people into an endless trap of a debate.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 23, 2023 21:41:38 GMT
She-Hulk I would argue was pretty pretentious. It tried too hard to come across as feminist but instead often came across as being pretty misandrist, and its humor was more cynical than clever like it was trying to present itself as. Eh, rather true to the comics then. But considering how so many were determined to hate the show before it debuted and were against its very existence this reaction isn't surprising The She-Hulk comic books I have read are neither misandrist in their storytelling or cynical in their humor, so I disagree. However, it is quite amusing that you agree with me that the series was pretentious when you argued that it wasn't. "but considering how so many were determined to hate the show before it debuted and were against its very existence this reaction isn't surprising" - I am pretty sure I was only referring to me, so your generalization is foolish.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 24, 2023 1:24:02 GMT
Aside from Dolores and Thandie Newtons' character, that didn't really happen. And even with her it was still due to her being programmed as a "failsafe" if the Rebellion failed.
I'm talking more about William who went from meek and milquetoast to a sociopath in 2 days of his life.
I take it you didn't really watch past the first season then? There's a handful of other androids that went through massive character arcs (like Bernard) but I'm not going to narrate the whole story for you. Besides, there's really no requirement to have multiple characters go through a character arc for a show to be considered character-driven. You just admitted yourself that at least 2 of them had, therefore you've proven yourself wrong and you now agree with me the show is character driven. Bernard? Whose whole arc is finding out he's just a copy of Arnold and then Ford makes him kill himself (until the show wussed out and revealed he was alive)?
Two of them, done very poorly
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 24, 2023 1:25:38 GMT
And if either had just been 1 season shows with no continuation, you wouldn't be saying that about either. You'd instead focus on their flaws.
See how that goes? Base them on S1s alone in this case and all 3 are comparable.
"And if..." but that is not the case, both Breaking Bad and The Wire told long form storytelling in the span of five seasons of television and were critically acclaimed right from the start. So, your argument doesn't work - like, at all. You would have a better time using examples of actual other mini-series for your argument, but of course if you did so you wouldn't be able to bait people into an endless trap of a debate. Actually, it took the Wire until towards the end of its first season to get any kind of acclaim. Before then the complains were how slow and generic it was. Breaking Bad basically was a miniseries in its first season and it didn't get good viewership at all. It's frankly a miracle it was renewed.
In fact, today it wouldn't get renewed
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Post by formersamhmd on Jul 24, 2023 1:26:51 GMT
Eh, rather true to the comics then. But considering how so many were determined to hate the show before it debuted and were against its very existence this reaction isn't surprising The She-Hulk comic books I have read are neither misandrist in their storytelling or cynical in their humor, so I disagree. However, it is quite amusing that you agree with me that the series was pretentious when you argued that it wasn't. "but considering how so many were determined to hate the show before it debuted and were against its very existence this reaction isn't surprising" - I am pretty sure I was only referring to me, so your generalization is foolish. There was nothing misandrist in the TV show, just certain folks getting mad that Bruce wasn't the real lead character and Jen was secondary to him.
As pretentious as anything Deadpool ever did. But he's a white male so he gets away with it.
Doesn't change how easily single people, you included, can get sucked onto the bandwagon.
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