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Post by novastar6 on Jan 6, 2024 17:06:37 GMT
And who decreed miscarriages evil? I'll try breaking down my argument and you can tell me where you disagree: Premise 1: An abortion is an evil event because it destroys an innocent human being in the womb Premise 2: God exists and created the universe and is therefore the ultimate source of all natural processes Premise 3: God is good Premise 4: A miscarriage is essentially an abortion caused partly or wholly by natural processes Sub-conclusion 1: From Premises 1 and 4, a miscarriage is an evil event Sub-conclusion 2: From Premises 2 and 4, God is the ultimate cause of miscarriages Premise 5: The only reason a good being would cause an evil event is if it served the purpose of a greater good Sub-conclusion 3: From Premise 3 and Sub-conclusion 1, God is a good being who causes an evil event (miscarriage) Sub-conclusion 4: From Premise 5 and Sub-conclusion 3, there is at least some greater good that is served by allowing the evil of miscarriage Premise 6: Bodily autonomy for women is a good thing Premise 7: A pro-choice society allows maximal bodily autonomy for women at the risk that some women will have abortions Conclusion: From Premises 1, 4, 6 and 7 and Sub-conclusion 4, it is possible that a pro-choice society might be considered good even though it allows the evil of abortions.
Why are women more entitled to bodily autonomy than men are? Is that supposed to somehow be GOOD? Men have been denied bodily autonomy ever since the draft was invented. That's okay, they're men, they can TAKE it, they can take being forced out of their homes, their lives, away from their families, forced to undergo rigorous training and go get shot to pieces or blown apart in some war. Oh and if they try something like shooting themselves in the foot to get out of serving, THEN they get sanctioned for damaging military PROPERTY, their bodies are literally considered PROPERTY of the U.S. government. All the while women sit at home bitching about they're so oppressed because they have the RIGHT to buy and use condoms, birth control patches, pills, IUDs, the morning after pill, to say NO to any man they DON'T want to have sex with, to only use sperm-not-included sex toys, and somehow view that as having NO rights, NO choices, and being cattle. So maybe everybody should trade places, the women can get drafted and go fight in the middle east and the men can sit at home saying it's so UNFAIR they have to buy their own condoms. That sounds like a fair trade to me.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 6, 2024 20:09:35 GMT
You really think abortion clinics have a POC lab to put THOSE things together to ensure no BODY PARTS were left in the woman after the procedure? If this refers to the image of early abortions then the answer is no. This is what they look like. The rest of your answer is a bit of a rant isn't it? Full of hyperbole, anecdotal evidence and mischaracterisation? Since you are still not addressing the main points between us, of which you were previously reminded, you will excuse me if now I don't yours - such as they are.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 6, 2024 20:27:30 GMT
And who decreed miscarriages evil? It would be hard to find anyone in favour of miscarriages for their own sake as a good thing, (just as it is hard to imagine anyone aborting just because they hate the defenceless - something you claimed very recently). The point being made to you is that the loss of pregnancy is a bad thing, a form of natural evil, - of which your deity claims He is the source in Isiah (sometimes glossed as 'misfortune'). At the same time people of your ilk readily condemn the death of "innocent young babies". But you have been told all this and have yet to confront the obvious moral contradictions. Which claim no one makes... Again, no one makes this claim... Only in the later stages of pregnancy - when the fewest abortions are performed. And no one claims this either. I think the actual issue, which you confuse and misrepresent is that pro-lifers often use dog whistle tactics, by calling every abortion the "murder of an innocent little baby" etc. In actual fact no one would reasonably confuse those images of early abortions I posted recently as "babies" let alone "a person", and we remember that the majority of abortions are done in the early stages. - Given your hyperbole and lack of medical knowledge in the latest post this is especially ironic...
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Post by novastar6 on Jan 7, 2024 0:06:59 GMT
And who decreed miscarriages evil? It would be hard to find anyone in favour of miscarriages for their own sake as a good thing, (just as it is hard to imagine anyone aborting just because they hate the defenceless - something you claimed very recently). The point being made to you is that the loss of pregnancy is a bad thing, a form of natural evil, - of which your deity claims He is the source in Isiah (sometimes glossed as 'misfortune'). At the same time people of your ilk readily condemn the death of "innocent young babies". But you have been told all this and have yet to confront the obvious moral contradictions. Which claim no one makes... Again, no one makes this claim... Only in the later stages of pregnancy - when the fewest abortions are performed. And no one claims this either. I think the actual issue, which you confuse and misrepresent is that pro-lifers often use dog whistle tactics, by calling every abortion the "murder of an innocent little baby" etc. In actual fact no one would reasonably confuse those images of early abortions I posted recently as "babies" let alone "a person", and we remember that the majority of abortions are done in the early stages. - Given your hyperbole and lack of medical knowledge in the latest post this is especially ironic...
If you think nobody makes those claims, you really HAVEN'T been paying attention to the 'pro-choice' crowd.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 7, 2024 0:30:58 GMT
Men have been denied bodily autonomy ever since the draft was invented. That's okay, they're men, they can TAKE it, they can take being forced out of their homes, their lives, away from their families, forced to undergo rigorous training and go get shot to pieces or blown apart in some war. I think both men and women should be included in any draft/military service so you're arguing with the wrong person here.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 7, 2024 15:16:09 GMT
It would be hard to find anyone in favour of miscarriages for their own sake as a good thing, (just as it is hard to imagine anyone aborting just because they hate the defenceless - something you claimed very recently). The point being made to you is that the loss of pregnancy is a bad thing, a form of natural evil, - of which your deity claims He is the source in Isiah (sometimes glossed as 'misfortune'). At the same time people of your ilk readily condemn the death of "innocent young babies". But you have been told all this and have yet to confront the obvious moral contradictions. Which claim no one makes... Again, no one makes this claim... Only in the later stages of pregnancy - when the fewest abortions are performed. And no one claims this either. I think the actual issue, which you confuse and misrepresent is that pro-lifers often use dog whistle tactics, by calling every abortion the "murder of an innocent little baby" etc. In actual fact no one would reasonably confuse those images of early abortions I posted recently as "babies" let alone "a person", and we remember that the majority of abortions are done in the early stages. - Given your hyperbole and lack of medical knowledge in the latest post this is especially ironic...
If you think nobody makes those claims, you really HAVEN'T been paying attention to the 'pro-choice' crowd.
In which case prove me wrong and provide specific instances of these things being claimed. Evasion will be noted. Just as it continues to be of you unwilling or unable to deal with the Problem of Natural Evil highlighted in regards to miscarriages lol.
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Post by novastar6 on Jan 7, 2024 23:31:01 GMT
If you think nobody makes those claims, you really HAVEN'T been paying attention to the 'pro-choice' crowd.
In which case prove me wrong and provide specific instances of these things being claimed. Evasion will be noted. Just as it continues to be of you unwilling or unable to deal with the Problem of Natural Evil highlighted in regards to miscarriages lol.
Evasion is a 2 way street, right here in this thread it's been commented how it's a proven FACT that most abortions are done because of medical reasons...with absolutely NOTHING to back it up.
And if you want to argue miscarriage is evil, you'd have to argue ALL natural death is evil, so once again we come full circle to 'murder isn't any different from natural causes'. So tell us, are ALL manners of death evil?
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 7, 2024 23:46:33 GMT
You really think abortion clinics have a POC lab to put THOSE things together to ensure no BODY PARTS were left in the woman after the procedure? If this refers to the image of early abortions then the answer is no. This is what they look like. The rest of your answer is a bit of a rant isn't it? Full of hyperbole, anecdotal evidence and mischaracterisation? Since you are still not addressing the main points between us, of which you were previously reminded, you will excuse me if now I don't yours - such as they are. It may be a lost cause to ask Novastar to give a coherent or direct response to her remarks. She claimed I sympathized with rapists (what she was basing this on, I'm not sure) and that of a girl got pregnant after being raped, it was their own fault (victim blaming & don't Catholics still oppose the pill?).
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 8, 2024 0:17:05 GMT
right here in this thread it's been commented how it's a proven FACT that most abortions are done because of medical reasons...with absolutely NOTHING to back it up. I can't speak for others but a survey of abortion reasons has put the financial one as the most common. I actually provided one link to this earlier in the thread showing that, here is another: "the vast majority of women request abortions due to a lack of financial resources. A Guttmacher Institute study reported that 73% of women cited this as the motivating factor for abortion. Under these circumstances there is no way abortion can be called a “choice”. Indeed the Guttmacher institute went on to expressly state in the wake of their study that “Qualitative data from in-depth interviews portrayed women who had had an abortion as typically feeling that they had no other choice, given their limited resources and existing responsibilities to others” It is in many ways an affront to suggest to women, who are compelled to have an abortion out of poverty and an inability to afford childcare; that they have "chosen” their abortion." www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6424/rr However since poverty can have such a detrimental effect on people with poorer health and life outcomes, while deprivation and unwantedness can too affect the welfare of children, arguably it is not unrelated and abortion remains a basic healthcare need for millions of women. Not at all. The point is that miscarriage, or spontaneous abortion, is the unfortunate or devastating (theologians usually gloss Isiah's 'evil' as 'misfortune') loss of pregnancy- something specific in effect, which, done for the best of reasons elsewhere, those of your ilk find objectionable, bad enough to withdraw health rights for half the population. For the same reason that you don't find all natural death objectionable though, neither do I, while Choicers can, unlike Lifers (usually fundamentalists) tell the difference between miscarriages/abortions and murder. In other words any confusion is on your side. Theologians are united that Isiah deals with Natural Evil - things for which no non-divine agent can be held morally responsible for its occurrence. While you condemn the early terminations of pregnancy it appears that the being who is able to stop them or worse, has admitted creating them, has a free pass. That is still the point. You may wish to look up the Problem of Evil in respect of this exchange; it has troubled Christians for centuries and you are only the latest.
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Post by novastar6 on Jan 8, 2024 15:38:19 GMT
right here in this thread it's been commented how it's a proven FACT that most abortions are done because of medical reasons...with absolutely NOTHING to back it up. I can't speak for others but a survey of abortion reasons has put the financial one as the most common. I actually provided one link to this earlier in the thread showing that, here is another: "the vast majority of women request abortions due to a lack of financial resources. A Guttmacher Institute study reported that 73% of women cited this as the motivating factor for abortion. Under these circumstances there is no way abortion can be called a “choice”. Indeed the Guttmacher institute went on to expressly state in the wake of their study that “Qualitative data from in-depth interviews portrayed women who had had an abortion as typically feeling that they had no other choice, given their limited resources and existing responsibilities to others” It is in many ways an affront to suggest to women, who are compelled to have an abortion out of poverty and an inability to afford childcare; that they have "chosen” their abortion." www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6424/rr However since poverty can have such a detrimental effect on people with poorer health and life outcomes, while deprivation and unwantedness can too affect the welfare of children, arguably it is not unrelated and abortion remains a basic healthcare need for millions of women. Not at all. The point is that miscarriage, or spontaneous abortion, is the unfortunate or devastating (theologians usually gloss Isiah's 'evil' as 'misfortune') loss of pregnancy- something specific in effect, which, done for the best of reasons elsewhere, those of your ilk find objectionable, bad enough to withdraw health rights for half the population. For the same reason that you don't find all natural death objectionable though, neither do I, while Choicers can, unlike Lifers (usually fundamentalists) tell the difference between miscarriages/abortions and murder. In other words any confusion is on your side. Theologians are united that Isiah deals with Natural Evil - things for which no non-divine agent can be held morally responsible for its occurrence. While you condemn the early terminations of pregnancy it appears that the being who is able to stop them or worse, has admitted creating them, has a free pass. That is still the point. You may wish to look up the Problem of Evil in respect of this exchange; it has troubled Christians for centuries and you are only the latest.
Canada's solution to the detrimental effect poverty had on people was to legalize killing them, along with anybody else who for ANY reason, lost a job, going through a breakup, got an F, etc., momentarily decides life is not worth living. So should America just legalize euthanizing everybody who isn't happy?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 8, 2024 20:48:26 GMT
Canada's solution to the detrimental effect poverty had on people was to legalize killing them, along with anybody else who for ANY reason, lost a job, going through a breakup, got an F, etc., momentarily decides life is not worth living. So should America just legalize euthanizing everybody who isn't happy? Please substantiate this claim. What I read is this! Euthanasia in Canada in its legal voluntary form is called Medical Assistance in Dying (MAiD) and it first became legal along with assisted suicide in June 2016 for those whose death was reasonably foreseeable. In March 2021, the law was further amended by Bill C-7 which to include those suffering from a grievous and irremediable condition whose death was not reasonably foreseeable. But a condition (among others) remains that those affected must a have a grievous and irremediable medical condition, i.e. not 'poverty'. Looks like hyperbole has got the better of you again lol, while what this has to do with a god who admits to and does what its adherents specifically take such issue with is anyone's guess. A god who also once supposedly drowned nearly everyone and authorises mass killings according to scripture.
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Post by novastar6 on Jan 8, 2024 22:53:07 GMT
Canada's solution to the detrimental effect poverty had on people was to legalize killing them, along with anybody else who for ANY reason, lost a job, going through a breakup, got an F, etc., momentarily decides life is not worth living. So should America just legalize euthanizing everybody who isn't happy? Please substantiate this claim. What I read is this! Euthanasia in Canada in its legal voluntary form is called Medical Assistance in Dying (MAiD) and it first became legal along with assisted suicide in June 2016 for those whose death was reasonably foreseeable. In March 2021, the law was further amended by Bill C-7 which to include those suffering from a grievous and irremediable condition whose death was not reasonably foreseeable. But a condition (among others) remains that those affected must a have a grievous and irremediable medical condition, i.e. not 'poverty'. Looks like hyperbole has got the better of you again lol, while what this has to do with a god who admits to and does what its adherents specifically take such issue with is anyone's guess. A god who also once supposedly drowned nearly everyone and authorises mass killings according to scripture. And the same God that all the people who claim He doesn't exist, demand a free ride from. "If God's real, why should I have to do anything for myself or anyone else? Why should scientists work to save people? why doesn't God just do it all?" So the people who don't believe in God, are actually demanding that God treats them better than God himself, when they've done nothing to warrant such treatment. Kind of like how we're told it's so BRAVE and STRONG of women to kill their babies, and when we're met with an example of TRUE strength and character, like a teenage mother who kept her child AND goes to school and work to provide for them and make a better life for them and refuses to take welfare or charity, we're told they made the WRONG choice and ruined their lives and should've aborted it. So again, abortion is not about women's choice, it's about killing babies, under any guise necessary.
The great thing about YouTube, it's not just the lone story in the video, it's everybody else's stories in the comments:
Maybe someone would like to point out the part where all of these were medically necessary? I see 'influenced', I see 'pressured', I see '*made* me', I see 'not given a second option', I see 'suffer', I see 'depression', and whether it was 50 years ago, or 1 year ago, they all sound very similar. Why is that? Why would any woman feel guilt about abortion in this day and age when they're celebrated in the streets? Why would they feel guilty about a 'medical procedure' that was absolutely necessary for their health?
This one particularly sticks out.
Anybody want to say she's wrong?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 8, 2024 23:12:12 GMT
Canada's solution to the detrimental effect poverty had on people was to legalize killing them, along with anybody else who for ANY reason, lost a job, going through a breakup, got an F, etc., momentarily decides life is not worth living. Please substantiate this claim. the same God that all the people who claim He doesn't exist, demand a free ride [blah] Claim not substantiated. The bad thing is that it can be, as you amply show, entirely selective and anecdotal and still not an authoritative source. One does not doubt that abortions can be regretted. But that is still not a reason to deny the opportunity to women who want or need one. Moreover your concern for women's feelings seems entirely one sided. Your supposed deity does not care about the feelings of women who suffer the natural evil, which he created, of miscarriage or spontaneous abortion. Why do you? "The Bible only mentions miscarriages in the context of blessings and cursings upon Israel. In Exodus 23:26, Israel is promised that “none will miscarry or be barren in your land” if they followed the Mosaic Covenant. Conversely, in Hosea 9:14, Israel in a state of disobedience is promised “wombs that miscarry / and breasts that are dry.” We learn from these passages that spontaneous miscarriages are in God’s hands." is what the more honest Christians say. www.gotquestions.org/miscarriage-Bible.htmlThe rest of your post was just going off on a tangent again, putting words in people's mouths, before ending in the gratuitous misrepresentation of things, was it not?
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 8, 2024 23:25:13 GMT
Please substantiate this claim. What I read is this! Euthanasia in Canada in its legal voluntary form is called Medical Assistance in Dying (MAiD) and it first became legal along with assisted suicide in June 2016 for those whose death was reasonably foreseeable. In March 2021, the law was further amended by Bill C-7 which to include those suffering from a grievous and irremediable condition whose death was not reasonably foreseeable. But a condition (among others) remains that those affected must a have a grievous and irremediable medical condition, i.e. not 'poverty'. Looks like hyperbole has got the better of you again lol, while what this has to do with a god who admits to and does what its adherents specifically take such issue with is anyone's guess. A god who also once supposedly drowned nearly everyone and authorises mass killings according to scripture. And the same God that all the people who claim He doesn't exist, demand a free ride from. "If God's real, why should I have to do anything for myself or anyone else? Why should scientists work to save people? why doesn't God just do it all?" So the people who don't believe in God, are actually demanding that God treats them better than God himself, when they've done nothing to warrant such treatment. Kind of like how we're told it's so BRAVE and STRONG of women to kill their babies, and when we're met with an example of TRUE strength and character, like a teenage mother who kept her child AND goes to school and work to provide for them and make a better life for them and refuses to take welfare or charity, we're told they made the WRONG choice and ruined their lives and should've aborted it. So again, abortion is not about women's choice, it's about killing babies, under any guise necessary.
The great thing about YouTube, it's not just the lone story in the video, it's everybody else's stories in the comments:
Maybe someone would like to point out the part where all of these were medically necessary? I see 'influenced', I see 'pressured', I see '*made* me', I see 'not given a second option', I see 'suffer', I see 'depression', and whether it was 50 years ago, or 1 year ago, they all sound very similar. Why is that? Why would any woman feel guilt about abortion in this day and age when they're celebrated in the streets? Why would they feel guilty about a 'medical procedure' that was absolutely necessary for their health?
This one particularly sticks out.
Anybody want to say she's wrong?
I'm sure there a lot of people who have regrets in life. That is called "playing a Monday morning quarterback." Football games are mostly played on Sundays; The next morning is hardly a time for regrets and self-pity. These people must have had their reasons for having the abortion and now that they are no longer in the same situation, it's too late to have regrets. Dwelling on the past doesn't help. I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't regret their abortion.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 8, 2024 23:38:06 GMT
I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't regret their abortion. It is also possible to regret something while still thinking it was necessary. Christians for instance presumably regret the the Passion of their Jesus but see how without it no one would have been redeemed by such a supposed sacrifice.
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Post by novastar6 on Jan 8, 2024 23:39:54 GMT
And the same God that all the people who claim He doesn't exist, demand a free ride from. "If God's real, why should I have to do anything for myself or anyone else? Why should scientists work to save people? why doesn't God just do it all?" So the people who don't believe in God, are actually demanding that God treats them better than God himself, when they've done nothing to warrant such treatment. Kind of like how we're told it's so BRAVE and STRONG of women to kill their babies, and when we're met with an example of TRUE strength and character, like a teenage mother who kept her child AND goes to school and work to provide for them and make a better life for them and refuses to take welfare or charity, we're told they made the WRONG choice and ruined their lives and should've aborted it. So again, abortion is not about women's choice, it's about killing babies, under any guise necessary.
The great thing about YouTube, it's not just the lone story in the video, it's everybody else's stories in the comments:
Maybe someone would like to point out the part where all of these were medically necessary? I see 'influenced', I see 'pressured', I see '*made* me', I see 'not given a second option', I see 'suffer', I see 'depression', and whether it was 50 years ago, or 1 year ago, they all sound very similar. Why is that? Why would any woman feel guilt about abortion in this day and age when they're celebrated in the streets? Why would they feel guilty about a 'medical procedure' that was absolutely necessary for their health?
This one particularly sticks out.
Anybody want to say she's wrong?
I'm sure there a lot of people who have regrets in life. That is called "playing a Monday morning quarterback." Football games are mostly played on Sundays; The next morning is hardly a time for regrets and self-pity. These people must have had their reasons for having the abortion and now that they are no longer in the same situation, it's too late to have regrets. Dwelling on the past doesn't help. I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't regret their abortion.
And most rapists don't regret what they do, so that makes it good, or at the very least NOT horrible?
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Post by novastar6 on Jan 8, 2024 23:41:13 GMT
I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't regret their abortion. It is also possible to regret something while still thinking it was necessary. Christians for instance presumably regret the the Passion of their Jesus but see how without it no one would have been redeemed by such a supposed sacrifice.
Sounds like you're confirming abortions ARE human sacrifice, like Christians have been saying for years.
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Post by novastar6 on Jan 9, 2024 0:26:03 GMT
Canada's solution to the detrimental effect poverty had on people was to legalize killing them, along with anybody else who for ANY reason, lost a job, going through a breakup, got an F, etc., momentarily decides life is not worth living. the same God that all the people who claim He doesn't exist, demand a free ride [blah] Claim not substantiated. The bad thing is that it can be, as you amply show, entirely selective and anecdotal and still not an authoritative source. One does not doubt that abortions can be regretted. But that is still not a reason to deny the opportunity to women who want or need one. Moreover your concern for women's feelings seems entirely one sided. Your supposed deity does not care about the feelings of women who suffer the natural evil, which he created, of miscarriage or spontaneous abortion. Why do you? "The Bible only mentions miscarriages in the context of blessings and cursings upon Israel. In Exodus 23:26, Israel is promised that “none will miscarry or be barren in your land” if they followed the Mosaic Covenant. Conversely, in Hosea 9:14, Israel in a state of disobedience is promised “wombs that miscarry / and breasts that are dry.” We learn from these passages that spontaneous miscarriages are in God’s hands." is what the more honest Christians say. www.gotquestions.org/miscarriage-Bible.htmlThe rest of your post was just going off on a tangent again, putting words in people's mouths, before ending in the gratuitous misrepresentation of things, was it not? We're back to 'If God is real then life should be perfect'. Since y'all want to insist abortion is a good thing and MOST women never regret it, where do you get off saying miscarriage is evil? The people claiming 'science' will claim that's JUST a clump of cells, not alive, not feeling, not sentient, not aware, not a person, not a baby. Do you disagree? Do you think that an actual individual person is lost during a miscarriage? Or do you think all that's lost are those pictures of cells in petri dishes? Is that ALL that comes out of a woman's body during a miscarriage, just a bunch of fuzzy looking cells? That doesn't sound very heartbreaking now, does it?
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 9, 2024 2:08:26 GMT
I'm sure there a lot of people who have regrets in life. That is called "playing a Monday morning quarterback." Football games are mostly played on Sundays; The next morning is hardly a time for regrets and self-pity. These people must have had their reasons for having the abortion and now that they are no longer in the same situation, it's too late to have regrets. Dwelling on the past doesn't help. I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't regret their abortion.
And most rapists don't regret what they do, so that makes it good, or at the very least NOT horrible?
What is it with you and rapists? You keep mentioning this.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 9, 2024 3:27:59 GMT
I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't regret their abortion. It is also possible to regret something while still thinking it was necessary. Christians for instance presumably regret the the Passion of their Jesus but see how without it no one would have been redeemed by such a supposed sacrifice. A lot of people have regrets, that is just part of life. People make choices in life all the time. All the choices I made, good and bad, I had my reasons and I accept them; they brought me to where I am today. That acceptance has brought me something few people have - peace of mind.
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