jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 5, 2024 2:12:56 GMT
I breezed thru the Bible and noticed that Jesus:
- He never took on a pious arrogant view of apparent sinners, telling they will go to hell or something - Hence the quote "Let he is who without sin cast the first stone".
- He never mentioned homosexuality or abortion. We can assume He had no stance on this other than "God loves everyone, even the least among us". The hate against them came later.
- He told St Peter that all the old rules in Deuteronomy are gone, saying that "Don't call anything unholy what God has blessed".
- He completely avoided getting political.
It's amazing how many rules were created at least a few hundred years after his death.
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Post by clusium on Jan 5, 2024 4:06:39 GMT
I breezed thru the Bible and noticed that Jesus: - He never took on a pious arrogant view of apparent sinners, telling they will go to hell or something - Hence the quote "Let he is who without sin cast the first stone". - He never mentioned homosexuality or abortion. We can assume He had no stance on this other than "God loves everyone, even the least among us". The hate against them came later. - He told St Peter that all the old rules in Deuteronomy are gone, saying that "Don't call anything unholy what God has blessed". - He completely avoided getting political. It's amazing how many rules were created at least a few hundred years after his death. The reason Our Lord never Mentioned homosexuality or abortion is because neither issues were brought to Him. Christ Condemned divorce as a sin against the Commandment "Thou shalt not commit adultery," precisely because OTHERS brought up the issue. In ancient Israel, homosexual acts were understood completely, to be sinful, as was the breaking of the Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."
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Hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Jan 5, 2024 17:37:31 GMT
Can you also see why people like Muhammad?
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Post by clusium on Jan 5, 2024 18:27:24 GMT
Can you also see why people like Muhammad? Yes, or how about the Buddha? Or perhaps even Krishna...?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 5, 2024 19:34:24 GMT
In ancient Israel, homosexual acts were understood completely, to be sinful, as was the breaking of the Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." Jesus in Matthew 19:17-18 definitely stands by the Commandments (though it's a matter of debate whether 'Thou shalt not kill' applies to foetuses). But I don't know if he would necessarily agree with any ancient Hebrew views on sin outside of the Commandments. He doesn't consider picking grain on the Sabbath sinful for instance so I wouldn't take it as a given that he would be against homosexuality.
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Post by clusium on Jan 5, 2024 21:30:54 GMT
In ancient Israel, homosexual acts were understood completely, to be sinful, as was the breaking of the Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." Jesus in Matthew 19:17-18 definitely stands by the Commandments ( though it's a matter of debate whether 'Thou shalt not kill' applies to foetuses). But I don't know if he would necessarily agree with any ancient Hebrew views on sin outside of the Commandments. He doesn't consider picking grain on the Sabbath sinful for instance so I wouldn't take it as a given that he would be against homosexuality.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 5, 2024 22:32:22 GMT
The reason Our Lord never Mentioned homosexuality or abortion is because neither issues were brought to Him. How do you know? Where you there? Perhaps he just didn't have a view. I have heard something along these lines before, when I asked of a believer why Jesus, who supposedly cured leprosy a few times during his career, did not just cure the whole world of this terrible affliction, thus doing the maximum amount of good while he was about it (being, er, one third of God JC must have known how many cases there were and likely to be, and have had the power.) Apparently it was because he "wasn't asked" - as if someone, especially someone of Jesus's nature, would need to be prompted to do most good! JC it may also be noted never married and had 12 close male friends out of preference .Bart Ehrman, a scholar of the Greek New Testament and early Christianity, concludes that historical evidence says nothing at all about Jesus' sexuality—"certainly nothing to indicate that Jesus and Mary had a sexual relationship of any kind". The Gospel of John however makes references to the "disciple whom Jesus loved" some have implied a homosocial or homoerotic reading of the relationship. Then there is the mysterious instance of the half dressed youth following him at one point who when challenged, then fled naked...(Mark 14:51–52) It might explain Jesus' reticence on the subject.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 5, 2024 23:49:27 GMT
Jesus is talking about a fully-formed child there. At any rate, a foetus can't be said to believe in Jesus in any meaningful sense. Not saying Jesus would be fine with abortion but I just don't think that particular quote necessarily suggests he wouldn't.
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Post by clusium on Jan 6, 2024 0:01:09 GMT
Jesus is talking about a fully-formed child there. At any rate, a foetus can't be said to believe in Jesus in any meaningful sense.Not saying Jesus would be fine with abortion but I just don't think that particular quote necessarily suggests he wouldn't. St. John the Baptist did. Read St. Luke chapter 1, verses 41 - 44.
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Post by clusium on Jan 6, 2024 0:06:21 GMT
The reason Our Lord never Mentioned homosexuality or abortion is because neither issues were brought to Him. How do you know? Where you there? Perhaps he just didn't have a view. I have heard something along these lines before, when I asked of a believer why Jesus, who supposedly cured leprosy a few times during his career, did not just cure the whole world of this terrible affliction, thus doing the maximum amount of good while he was about it (being, er, one third of God JC must have known how many cases there were and likely to be, and have had the power.) Apparently it was because he "wasn't asked" - as if someone, especially someone of Jesus's nature, would need to be prompted to do most good! JC it may also be noted never married and had 12 close male friends out of preference .Bart Ehrman, a scholar of the Greek New Testament and early Christianity, concludes that historical evidence says nothing at all about Jesus' sexuality—"certainly nothing to indicate that Jesus and Mary had a sexual relationship of any kind". The Gospel of John however makes references to the "disciple whom Jesus loved" some have implied a homosocial or homoerotic reading of the relationship. Then there is the mysterious instance of the half dressed youth following him at one point who when challenged, then fled naked...(Mark 14:51–52) It might explain Jesus' reticence on the subject. You could make the exact same argument to those who try to make the point that the Lord Jesus never once, Mentioned homosexuality. Greek language (which happened to be the language that the New Testament was written in), had specific words for different types of love. Not simple descriptions of the word 'love,' but *ACTUAL* words for different types of love. Therefore, if St. John the Apostle, - the disciple whom the Lord Loved - was meant in a romantic context (which was 'eros'), it would have been written out in said context.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 6, 2024 0:17:22 GMT
You could make the exact same argument to those who try to make the point that the Lord Jesus never once, Mentioned homosexuality. Indeed; although one can make an argument that the circumstantial evidence for his love of men over women, though passing, is tipped more one way than another. The writer and theologian Robert Gagnon has argued that the Greek word translated as "loved" is agape (used, for example, in John 3:16: "for God so loved the world"), rather than the Greek word referring to sexual love, eros. On the other hand, Theodore W. Jennings Jr. notes that "eros does not occur either in the New Testament or in the Septuagint" and that these use agape to refer to "the love of a husband for his wife or even to the illicit loves of inordinate desire", including throughout the Song of Solomon en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_of_Jesus#:~:text=Bart%20Ehrman%2C%20a%20scholar%20of,sexual%20relationship%20of%20any%20kind%22.
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Post by clusium on Jan 6, 2024 0:53:44 GMT
You could make the exact same argument to those who try to make the point that the Lord Jesus never once, Mentioned homosexuality. Indeed; although one can make an argument that the circumstantial evidence for his love of men over women, though passing, is tipped more one way than another. The writer and theologian Robert Gagnon has argued that the Greek word translated as "loved" is agape (used, for example, in John 3:16: "for God so loved the world"), rather than the Greek word referring to sexual love, eros. On the other hand, Theodore W. Jennings Jr. notes that "eros does not occur either in the New Testament or in the Septuagint" and that these use agape to refer to "the love of a husband for his wife or even to the illicit loves of inordinate desire", including throughout the Song of Solomon en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_of_Jesus#:~:text=Bart%20Ehrman%2C%20a%20scholar%20of,sexual%20relationship%20of%20any%20kind%22. The Song of Solomon is also used as an allegorical for God's Love for His People (Israel and/or the Church) in both Judaism & Christianity.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 6, 2024 1:47:18 GMT
Can you also see why people like Muhammad? Yes. I actually know quite a few Muslims and they aren't even remotely like how they are portrayed in the news. The vast majority are really nice people. How about you?
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 6, 2024 1:52:04 GMT
Can you also see why people like Muhammad? Yes, or how about the Buddha? Or perhaps even Krishna...? I'm a Rastafarian Targaryen. Buddhists are nice too. The Hare Krishnas have gone the way of Crosby, Stills and Nash. You don't see them around anymore....
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Post by clusium on Jan 6, 2024 4:22:12 GMT
Yes, or how about the Buddha? Or perhaps even Krishna...? I'm a Rastafarian Targaryen. Buddhists are nice too. The Hare Krishnas have gone the way of Crosby, Stills and Nash. You don't see them around anymore.... No they're still around. I saw them in Europe 7 years ago, prancing through the streets.
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Hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Jan 6, 2024 12:42:00 GMT
Yes. I actually know quite a few Muslims and they aren't even remotely like how they are portrayed in the news. The vast majority are really nice people. How about you? I'm certain the vast majority of Muslims are normal people who get happy and sad. Just like everyone else. That does not not answer whether the person Muhammad had quality traits, though. I ask more in light of someone who would be looking into converting to Islam and is without bias. Many born Muslims are probably MINOs who do not take Islam that seriously and only remain Muslim because it's their family religion and/or out of self-respect, and they overlook the bad things that may be in the religion. Just like there are many CINOs ("Catholics-in-name-only") who go to Mass and fancy a nice Catholic wedding in a beautiful church, but they don't go to church, barely know who Jesus is and never go to confession etc. I for example once debated a Muslim who denied that Islam forbids being friends with non-Muslims even though the Qur'an clearly says so in Surah 5:51 (there is also a tafseer that reports Umar used this verse to justify kicking a Christian out of Medina) and other places. That is some cognitive bias right there.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 6, 2024 13:53:15 GMT
I for example once debated a Muslim who denied that Islam forbids being friends with non-Muslims even though the Qur'an clearly says so in Surah 5:51 My understanding is that refers to political alliances between groups rather than personal friendships.
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Hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Jan 6, 2024 15:08:05 GMT
I for example once debated a Muslim who denied that Islam forbids being friends with non-Muslims even though the Qur'an clearly says so in Surah 5:51 My understanding is that refers to political alliances between groups rather than personal friendships. Yeah, a counterargument I've heard is that some translations say 'sponsors' and not 'friends'. Other verses do not address all non-believers equally. Q5:82 says Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection [mawaddatan]>to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.The Bible has similar verses such as 2 Corinthians 6:14: Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?The Qur'an is supposed to be timeless and uncorrupted in eternity unless stated otherwise. But when it comes to uncomfortable verses, they often like to say context and that it only applied in that specific scenario where it was addressed.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 6, 2024 16:18:35 GMT
Yes. I actually know quite a few Muslims and they aren't even remotely like how they are portrayed in the news. The vast majority are really nice people. How about you? I'm certain the vast majority of Muslims are normal people who get happy and sad. Just like everyone else. That does not not answer whether the person Muhammad had quality traits, though. I ask more in light of someone who would be looking into converting to Islam and is without bias. Many born Muslims are probably MINOs who do not take Islam that seriously and only remain Muslim because it's their family religion and/or out of self-respect, and they overlook the bad things that may be in the religion. Just like there are many CINOs ("Catholics-in-name-only") who go to Mass and fancy a nice Catholic wedding in a beautiful church, but they don't go to church, barely know who Jesus is and never go to confession etc. I for example once debated a Muslim who denied that Islam forbids being friends with non-Muslims even though the Qur'an clearly says so in Surah 5:51 (there is also a tafseer that reports Umar used this verse to justify kicking a Christian out of Medina) and other places. That is some cognitive bias right there. You're talking about the lunatic fringe here... I'm not concerned about the rest though Mohamed had his good traits and bad.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 7, 2024 23:53:00 GMT
I'm a Rastafarian Targaryen. Buddhists are nice too. The Hare Krishnas have gone the way of Crosby, Stills and Nash. You don't see them around anymore.... No they're still around. I saw them in Europe 7 years ago, prancing through the streets. Seven years ago....I think that may have been when CSN last performed.
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