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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 11, 2017 22:34:00 GMT
No, it is not quite demonstrably impossible. I saw "Terminator II" on the movie screen back in the day. Skynet is a fictional artificial intelligence. Mic's analogy about the ants, although not very good, was better than this. The ants were my analogy. Which you did not address, despite your thinking it a better analogy than Skynet, which you did address. And yes, Skynet is fictional. But so are a few other things I could mention. This discussion is based on the assumption that God is real. Now, assuming Skynet was real, who's responsible? Bingo. And there you conceded as much yourself: You're the red pill type. Did you choose to be the red pill type? All choices we make are based on our personalities, but none of us is free to choose his own personality. Our personalities are formed by biology and experiences, and you are actually the one the least in control of shaping your own personality. Oh, yes, I see that you did bring up the ants first. Congratulations Suppose I swallow the blue pill instead, although the red pill is more attractive to me? |
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 11, 2017 22:51:29 GMT
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Post by camimac on Jun 11, 2017 23:31:31 GMT
I have a few different thoughts about why God allows suffering, 1: Since God has given us free will, WHY?  ??  Why give us free will IF it leads to disastrous consequences (which he has already supposedly foreseen? Why would he allow THAT? Why does suffering need to be part of life? God gave us free will so that we could decide whether to follow him or not. God is omnipotent. He could make us follow him, if he chose too, but he wants us to choose. And, in terms of why does suffering need to be part of life. I can think of a number of reasons for this, but I'll just mention one of them. One that I heard this morning on one of those tv minister shows. What he said wasn't new, but I liked the example that he gave. He talked about how he had a sister who had always been an overachiever, made good grades in school, and was particularly athletically inclined, ran marathons, etc., and won awards for her athletic prowess. In recent years she has suffered a number of ailments, one of them being guillan barre syndrome. It left her in a situation where she had to learn to accept help from others. Her suffering helped her to understand weaknesses in others and be more compassionate towards them. She is now on the mend but participates more in family life than she did before she knew suffering. So, one thing suffering can make you more grateful for what you have and can help you to become a more compassionate person. |
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 11, 2017 23:48:46 GMT
tpfkar I don't disagree with any of that aspect of it, nor deny the heavy criticism/evaluation of deficiency that a hypothetical sentient creator of a world such as this would face.
Strange…a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied seventy times seven and invented Hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him! |
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Post by captainbryce on Jun 12, 2017 0:22:54 GMT
God gave us free will so that we could decide whether to follow him or not. God is omnipotent. He could make us follow him, if he chose too, but he wants us to choose. And, in terms of why does suffering need to be part of life. I can think of a number of reasons for this, but I'll just mention one of them. One that I heard this morning on one of those tv minister shows. What he said wasn't new, but I liked the example that he gave. He talked about how he had a sister who had always been an overachiever, made good grades in school, and was particularly athletically inclined, ran marathons, etc., and won awards for her athletic prowess. In recent years she has suffered a number of ailments, one of them being guillan barre syndrome. It left her in a situation where she had to learn to accept help from others. Her suffering helped her to understand weaknesses in others and be more compassionate towards them. She is now on the mend but participates more in family life than she did before she knew suffering. So, one thing suffering can make you more grateful for what you have and can help you to become a more compassionate person. Was she a selfish, inconsiderate, and uncaring individual when she was successful? Because unless she was, that's a very stupid example. The fact of the matter is, bad things still happen to good people who didn't need such a lesson in the first place. And then rich, spoiled, and evil people like Donald Trump can live a life of luxury their entire lives and end up being the President of the United States. Where was his lesson? And what about children who are afflicted with terminal diseases in early childhood. Exactly what lesson did they need or learn. The fact that good and bad things happen to people totally random, and don't seem to target any particular behaviors or attitudes completely disproves the notion that God is teaching certain people lessons while completely ignoring others. And no, God did not give us free will so that we could make a choice. If he wanted us to have a choice he would reveal his existence AND give us a REAL reason to believe he is worthy of worship. Because ignoring the suffering of others and choosing to remain invisible and silent doesn't really offer people capable of rational thought a choice. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 0:38:07 GMT
I'm glad there can be some good to come out of suffering but I see nothing good when someone on drugs tortures and kills an innocent baby
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Post by camimac on Jun 12, 2017 0:50:17 GMT
God gave us free will so that we could decide whether to follow him or not. Was she a selfish, inconsiderate, and uncaring individual when she was successful? Because unless she was, that's a very stupid example. Since teaching is not one of my spiritual gifts  , nor am I into proselytizing, I'm going to leave this alone. But first I will say this. James 1, chapter 1, verses 5 and 6 state: if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraidth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. So, ultimately if you want to understand why there is suffering, this is wisdom God can give you, if you ask him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 1:26:39 GMT
So, ultimately if you want to understand why there is suffering, this is wisdom God can give you, if you ask him. That's a great way of saying "I don't know how to answer your question" 😂 |
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Post by camimac on Jun 12, 2017 1:30:21 GMT
So, ultimately if you want to understand why there is suffering, this is wisdom God can give you, if you ask him. That's a great way of saying "I don't know how to answer your question" 😂 Correct, I don't know how to answer it in a way to convince you or anyone else. No answer is more convincing than one you receive from the source. |
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Post by gadreel on Jun 12, 2017 1:32:24 GMT
No, you are dodging. You claim I am not a Christian, you either made this based on some thing you think or know about me or you are just making some unfounded claim. Now, since you claimed it I would like to know what makes you think I am not a Christian. Wow. Deja vu. I have been here before. I've seen nothing to indicate that you are. Now, I believe that Man is in an imperfect and fallen state and that Christ is Savior; the one who offers a way out of it. That was the purpose of His sacrifice. You've said that you don't believe Christ was the Son of God, that you hope there's a afterlife which isn't the same as believing in it, and that Christianity sets standards which are impossible for most people to meet. What, if anything, do you believe sets you aside as a Christian? What are you doing that any Buddhist, Hindu, or Wiccan couldn't do? I'm asking because I haven't really seen anything yet. Your failure to respond tells me everything I need to know. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 12, 2017 1:34:43 GMT
Wow. Deja vu. I have been here before. I've seen nothing to indicate that you are. Now, I believe that Man is in an imperfect and fallen state and that Christ is Savior; the one who offers a way out of it. That was the purpose of His sacrifice. You've said that you don't believe Christ was the Son of God, that you hope there's a afterlife which isn't the same as believing in it, and that Christianity sets standards which are impossible for most people to meet. What, if anything, do you believe sets you aside as a Christian? What are you doing that any Buddhist, Hindu, or Wiccan couldn't do? I'm asking because I haven't really seen anything yet. Your failure to respond tells me everything I need to know. I've told you what qualifies me as a Christian. What qualifies you? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 1:43:57 GMT
That's a great way of saying "I don't know how to answer your question" 😂 Correct, I don't know how to answer it in a way to convince you or anyone else. No answer is more convincing than one you receive from the source. It shouldn't be about convincing others, but the questions are a way for actually challenging your flawed way of thinking and seeing other perspectives. By saying "oh just ask God" its like another way of saying "I give up in this conversation because I can't think for myself" It's the perfect example of using God as an answer to explain something you don't know… and sadly somehow people buy that answer |
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Post by gadreel on Jun 12, 2017 1:49:02 GMT
Your failure to respond tells me everything I need to know. I've told you what qualifies me as a Christian. What qualifies you? No you listed three things that you think mean I am not a Christian, I responded to those and pointed out that none of what you said disqualifies me from being a Christian, i then suggested that maybe you should iterate the requirements for being a Christian so that we had a benchmark. I see you are not able to do that. But I am prepared to throw you an undeserved bone, I consider myself to be a Christian for three main reasons, I am baptised into the Christian church (this is the least convincing reason), my spiritual understanding is informed by the Christian stream, I try to follow the teachings of Christ. so once again why do I not qualify as a Christian? |
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Post by gadreel on Jun 12, 2017 1:56:43 GMT
Correct, I don't know how to answer it in a way to convince you or anyone else. No answer is more convincing than one you receive from the source. It shouldn't be about convincing others, but the questions are a way for actually challenging your flawed way of thinking and seeing other perspectives. By saying "oh just ask God" its like another way of saying "I give up in this conversation because I can't think for myself" It's the perfect example of using God as an answer to explain something you don't know… and sadly somehow people buy that answer I dont agree in the context, the question was asked in the reverse, it had the premise that God existed and was responsible for the 'bad things and suffering' that are suffered. Most Christians are forced to conclude that this is somehow part of the master plan and beyond our comprehension, but this is not the same as saying I don't know why the sun rises, God must have done it, it is simply acknowledging that if there is a grand plan, chances are very high that it's intricacies are beyond us. To be fair I do not think that the answer that God must have a good reason is a good one, and at the end of the day I am not sure why there is suffering, it is one of the harder things to reconcile as a Christian. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 12, 2017 1:59:02 GMT
Which ones?
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Post by gadreel on Jun 12, 2017 2:00:23 GMT
Why do I not qualify as a Christian? |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 12, 2017 2:04:51 GMT
Why do I not qualify as a Christian? For one thing, you say that Christianity sets standard that are impossible for most people to meet. Have you met them? What are these standards? |
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Post by gadreel on Jun 12, 2017 2:07:49 GMT
Why do I not qualify as a Christian? For one thing, you say that Christianity sets standard that are impossible for most people to meet. Have you met them? What are these standards? So you are saying that one of the things that makes a Christian a Christian is that they accept that all the standards and morals laid out by the bible are possible to meet? |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 12, 2017 2:10:50 GMT
For one thing, you say that Christianity sets standard that are impossible for most people to meet. Have you met them? What are these standards? So you are saying that one of the things that makes a Christian a Christian is that they accept that all the standards and morals laid out by the bible are possible to meet? Are any of them impossible to meet? I never thought they were. If I'm wrong about that, do enlighten me. |
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Post by gadreel on Jun 12, 2017 2:29:45 GMT
So you are saying that one of the things that makes a Christian a Christian is that they accept that all the standards and morals laid out by the bible are possible to meet? Are any of them impossible to meet? I never thought they were. If I'm wrong about that, do enlighten me. Are you saying that one of the things that makes a Christian a Christian is that they accept that all the standards and morals laid out by the bible are possible to meet? |
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?? 
, nor am I into proselytizing, I'm going to leave this alone. But first I will say this. James 1, chapter 1, verses 5 and 6 state: if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraidth not; and it shall be given him.
