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Post by cupcakes on Jun 17, 2017 15:01:01 GMT
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jun 17, 2017 15:04:42 GMT
Translation: 'Don't ask me to be articulate, the video thinks for me'. Yeah... he's saying the video tells me whether he thinks my summation of his views is accurate! This Cody guy is dumb. He should be in a commercial about religious brainwashing. He's one of the guys who would drink the cool-aid.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 17, 2017 15:06:28 GMT
What religion do you follow?
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 17, 2017 15:10:49 GMT
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 17, 2017 15:27:12 GMT
What religion do you follow?
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 17, 2017 15:30:26 GMT
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 17, 2017 15:46:27 GMT
That was very bad. Thanks for posting.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 15:56:49 GMT
@graham Nope. It would be evil if God punished some other innocent person for someone else's crime. But God choose to pay the penalty Himself out of an act of both justice and love. It's one of the most loving things a person can do. No. The two things are mutually exclusive. To punish yourself for something you did not do whilst the guilty go free may be counted as love, but it cannot be justice. Your notion of justice begins and ends with the idea that there must be punishment for a crime. But you disregard THE central point of justice - that it is the guilty who must be punished and not the innocent. Imagine a country that had a tyrannical government. Whenever any crime happens, the government selects a random citizen and executes them. By your lights, this system is perfectly just because there is punishment for every crime. If you believe this, you are an inherently evil person. No response to this, @codyjarrettjr ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 16:43:04 GMT
No. The two things are mutually exclusive. To punish yourself for something you did not do whilst the guilty go free may be counted as love, but it cannot be justice. Your notion of justice begins and ends with the idea that there must be punishment for a crime. But you disregard THE central point of justice - that it is the guilty who must be punished and not the innocent. Imagine a country that had a tyrannical government. Whenever any crime happens, the government selects a random citizen and executes them. By your lights, this system is perfectly just because there is punishment for every crime. If you believe this, you are an inherently evil person. No response to this, @codyjarrettjr ? I believe it is God who defines what justice is. The problem is you're trying to judge God for an alleged injustice based on your own personal convictions, opinion or feelings.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 16:51:28 GMT
No response to this, @codyjarrettjr ? I believe it is God who defines what justice is. Really? If god can define justice however he likes, then why was a sacrifice needed at all? Why not simply forgive sinners, and define that as perfect justice? I'm not seeing how that is actually a "problem". Of course I'm judging him by my personal convictions - though I'm not using just my own conviction, since "don't punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty" is probably the most widely held belief that exists about justice. But what I'm trying to explore - and what you are avoiding every way you can - is YOUR opinion of justice. So, let me ask you this : Do you believe that punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is a just policy? Yes or no?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 16:57:58 GMT
@graham
In the case of God, yes. If that was His will and plan to reconcile us back to Him providing the pathway to salvation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 16:59:13 GMT
@graham In the case of God, yes. If that was His will and plan to reconcile us back to Him provide the pathway to salvation. And you've just demonstrated that in order to be a christian, one has to be morally bankrupt. Thank you for proving the point I have been making all along.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 17:18:37 GMT
@graham In the case of God, yes. If that was His will and plan to reconcile us back to Him provide the pathway to salvation. And you've just demonstrated that in order to be a christian, one has to be morally bankrupt. Thank you for proving the point I have been making all along. Your point is valid but we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. One thing I don't quite understand is why you seem to want to so incessantly portray God as some type of evil monster here. He pays the penalty for our crime, offering us a free gift by His grace, yet he's somehow the bad guy? I don't fully get your reasoning.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 17, 2017 17:52:42 GMT
tpfkar Science proven wrong yet AGAIN.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 18:49:19 GMT
One thing I don't quite understand is why you seem to want to so incessantly portray God as some type of evil monster here. Because he behaves like one. I've explained it time and time again. I'll try once more. I am a great believer in justice, and I am a HUGE believer in personal responsibility. To my mind, the benchmark of any valid moral system is that if an individual performs an action then that individual bears responsibility for the consequences of that action. If you honestly believe that justice requires that all sins be punished then the only moral course of action to take would be to accept the punishment for your sins. To avoid that punishment, believing that it was instead inflicted on the one person in history who you believe absolutely did not deserve it? I am honestly at a loss to know how anybody could see that as a good thing. It's certainly a beneficial thing, for you, but good? And that's before we even get into the concept of god as some sort of moral authority in the first place, and his conception of crime and punishment, which are whole other cans of worms. So yes. "He pays the penalty for our crime, offering us a free gift by His grace" may sound like a wonderful thing for you. To me it really is on a par with that example I offered, where a government goes out and simply murders an innocent person every time a crime happens on the basis that "this is perfect justice, for there is punishment meted out each and every time a crime is committed." It's a great system, if you happen to be one of the criminals. But no honest person could call it justice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 19:04:28 GMT
One thing I don't quite understand is why you seem to want to so incessantly portray God as some type of evil monster here. Because he behaves like one. I've explained it time and time again. I'll try once more. I am a great believer in justice, and I am a HUGE believer in personal responsibility. To my mind, the benchmark of any valid moral system is that if an individual performs an action then that individual bears responsibility for the consequences of that action. If you honestly believe that justice requires that all sins be punished then the only moral course of action to take would be to accept the punishment for your sins. To avoid that punishment, believing that it was instead inflicted on the one person in history who you believe absolutely did not deserve it? I am honestly at a loss to know how anybody could see that as a good thing. It's certainly a beneficial thing, for you, but good? And that's before we even get into the concept of god as some sort of moral authority in the first place, and his conception of crime and punishment, which are whole other cans of worms. So yes. "He pays the penalty for our crime, offering us a free gift by His grace" may sound like a wonderful thing for you. To me it really is on a par with that example I offered, where a government goes out and simply murders an innocent person every time a crime happens on the basis that "this is perfect justice, for there is punishment meted out each and every time a crime is committed." It's a great system, if you happen to be one of the criminals. But no honest person could call it justice. I'll leave you with the words of the blessed apostle Paul. “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”1 Corinthians 1:18
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 19:16:51 GMT
I'll leave you with the words of the blessed apostle Paul. “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”1 Corinthians 1:18 Translated : "A justice system that frees the guilty and punishes the innocent looks pretty good, if you're one of the guilty."
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