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Post by captainbryce on Jul 1, 2017 13:52:34 GMT
You'll never get an answer to this question. Arlon is utterly convinced that there is tremendous evidence for the supernatural - and utterly unable to name a single shred of it. A cynical person might come to the conclusion that he was just lying about it. Thank the IPU I'm not such a cynical person! I'm no longer interested in any answers from him. Once someone OPENS dialogue with ad hominem, they've lost all credibility in the debate. The only relevant question left for a person like that is "why do you exist?", and I suspect we'll NEVER get an answer that question. Which is why I put him on ignore.
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Post by mslo79 on Jul 2, 2017 3:59:47 GMT
You are judged by God (i.e. The Holy Trinity (Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)) and from there it's one of the following three things for you... -Heaven (if you get here, you've won ) -Purgatory (It's basically a temporary place or state of purification (from ones sins committed in this earthly life) before one eventually enters Heaven. in my opinion... very few people will be pure enough upon death here on earth for immediate entrance to Heaven which means it's likely the vast majority, assuming one does not end up in hell, will spend some time in purgatory.) -Hell (if you end up here, you lose. your stuck here forever. but from what i understand it's not really that God 'sends' someone here it's that they choose it for themselves by rejecting God and He simply confirms their choice as He won't force someone to love Him etc as we all have free will and can choose either to follow Him in this life and be forever happy with Him in the next or reject Him and hell is basically the alternative. it seems like no one could possibility choose hell but, obviously, some people end up there.) Those basic things of God judging you and Heaven/Purgatory/Hell after death here on earth is the official Catholic Church position which is the Church started by Jesus Christ (i.e. www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb1.htm ) who gave power to Peter (basically the first Pope) and then it went down through the generations til today with Pope Francis. It's the Church started and guided by God. but it seems many reject this Truth as i think for many people out there it boils down to this when it comes to belief in God... another quote i like... have a good day
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 2, 2017 10:23:51 GMT
You'll never get an answer to this question. Arlon is utterly convinced that there is tremendous evidence for the supernatural - and utterly unable to name a single shred of it. A cynical person might come to the conclusion that he was just lying about it. Thank the IPU I'm not such a cynical person! I'm no longer interested in any answers from him. Once someone OPENS dialogue with ad hominem, they've lost all credibility in the debate. The only relevant question left for a person like that is "why do you exist?", and I suspect we'll NEVER get an answer that question. Which is why I put him on ignore. To whom it may concern: Noting a person's flaws in not always a bad thing and almost never "illogical." It can distract from other arguments and that of course is discouraged in formal debate where staying on topic is essential. However, when the only argument a person has is that he was "attacked" it means he had no good argument in the first place.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 2, 2017 11:16:37 GMT
You're still not seeing evidence other people do, what a shocker! ... we shouldn't dismiss that, because it might be true. ... But evidence? ... Things we shouldn't dismiss because they might be true are called "evidence." Do you consider yourself a "scientist"? I think you would like to. I'm all for that myself. I would like you to be a good scientist as well. There are several points on science at which you are not good at all and I suspect it's mostly because you have determined to disagree with me in the false assumption I'm not one or somehow antithetical to one. I feel responsible for your failures. It was just a silly movie, not "based" on science or much on a true story. There was a "true" story about a "possessed boy" that merely suggested the theme for the movie. However there actually was some good science however briefly in the movie, The Exorcist. The issue of "proofs of the spirit" was addressed. The examples in the movie were of course fictional, but they illustrate what sort of "proofs" that can appear in fact. One is the comment made by the "mendicant" that he was once an altar boy. Another was the comment made by the mother of Father Karras while she was in the state (low quality) hospital. The "possessed" girl, Regan, was able quote those people exactly word for word without any knowledge of those particular meetings. Now you will complain that it is possible for an elaborate scheme organized to make it appear she had no knowledge of those meetings when in fact she had confederates present who could report to her. I can see that point. That's why I have tried to explain to you that such evidence is not of any use to people who were not close enough to the parties to determine whether confederates were used. I'm sure you have the science of it clear now. There can be "proofs" of the spirit, but they are only going to be "proofs" to people with very good control over the traffic involved. To the rest of us there is always some way to dismiss the evidence. Yet they are as you say, "things we shouldn't dismiss." A point I find significant is that even if there are schemes to fake spiritual phenomena those can be impressive. The case of Akiane Kramarik is somewhat impressive even if it is a fake. Yes, there are videos of her painting as a child, but I have seen only very brief excerpts that are more easily faked than longer videos. What is impressive is that such schemes depend on a significant number of people working together. That is a risky thing. The more people involved in a bank robbery, the more chances one of them will change his mind about going along and perhaps expose the scheme. Children can be coached what to say, but they are especially easy for an investigator to trip up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 12:22:59 GMT
... we shouldn't dismiss that, because it might be true. ... But evidence? ... Things we shouldn't dismiss because they might be true are called "evidence." No, they aren't. No. You are mistaken in your belief. I have some qualifications in science. I used to teach science. But those are very different things than being a scientist. I am not a scientists, have never considered myself to be one, and have never claimed to be one. With no due respect, you don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to science or me, so your opinions on it really don't count for anything. A movie can depict science or refer to scientific findings, but a movie cannot constitute scientific evidence of anything. If such things appear in fact, let us see the evidence for them. So far this is simply another claim with nothing to back it up. That's certainly one possibility. Amongst many. But as I said above, my actual "complaint" here would not be that, but would rather be "how do you know this happened at all"? If a "darwinist" presented a paper on some aspect of evolution which summed up to "somebody told me that they saw this species evolve and they said it was definitely evolution," he would be laughed out of the room. The amusing thing about people who buy into this stuff is that when it comes to a branch of science that they don't like, the no mountain of evidence can be big enough to convince them. Yet when it comes to the supernatural which they want to believe in, ANY amount of evidence is suddenly more than sufficient. And I accepted this as elementary since I've known it since I was about 15, and indicated that such "evidence" (which really isn't evidence at all) doesn't actually demonstrate anything. And yet, I don't claim "these stories are not true", but merely that "there is no evidence that these stories are true". Whereas you are the one that claimed "There are numerous cases where people have seen or heard things that could not be known except through other senses than the ordinary. So thus far, the facts indicate that it is you who needs to learn a lesson about not drawing premature conclusions, not me. What exactly is a "proof of the spirit". Is what you described above a "proof of the spirit"? If so then "proof of the spirit" is simply a synonym for "anecdote". This is what I struggle to understand about this anecdote. You keep talking about "spiritual" or "supernatural" phenomena, but the only story you have actually cited is a kid who painted paintings. That's not only not an impressive supernatural story, it's not a supernatural story at all. Unless there is more to the story than you're mentioned so far, nothing about it requires anything spiritual or supernatural to happen whatsoever. And really, even if we assume that there is more to the story, it's still just a story. When it comes to evidence, anecdotes are terrible. People rarely report the actual facts, but rather their subjective interpretation of them. This is not to say they are lying - though that's certainly an option - but I have personally sat and had conversations in a room, and then afterwards me and one other person have talked over what was discussed only to find that we have a totally different understanding of what was said. In such situations I would have walked away saying "Oh, X happened" and the other person would have said something completely different - and both of us would have been convinced that we were right. And that's before you throw into the mix the terrible fallibility of human memory, the demonstrated poor observational skills of all human beings, etc, etc. So no anecdote you tell me could possibly constitute evidence for the supernatural. And if you accept them as such then it really just goes to show that you don't know what evidence is. For a long while, the James Randi Educational Foundation offered a one million dollar prize to anybody who could demonstrate a supernatural ability under controlled scientific conditions. Many applied, claiming powers ranging from dowsing to telepathy to the ability to knock people down without touching them. In every single case the JREF sat down with them and agreed a test protocol which satisfied BOTH parties - it was designed so that cheating was impossible, whilst the applicants in every case agreed in advance that it would be a fair test of their abilities. One criteria that applied to every test was that it must be absolutely clear what the results were - you either achieved X and passed, or didn't achieve X and failed. All done on camera, in front of independent witnesses, in a repeatable manner that allowed no ambiguity. And in every case, when the test was then carried out the person failed. Had somebody actually passed, this is the kind of thing that would constitute evidence. Not "Well I once read that somebody did something really weird, and it might have been supernatural, and you can't prove that it wasn't."
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 2, 2017 13:18:34 GMT
Arlon earlier Things we shouldn't dismiss because they might be true are called "evidence." Graham No, they aren't. Arlon now It's funny how many people think monotony is persuasive, isn't it? I see you're still struggling with the difference between "evidence" and "proof." They actually are two different words with different meanings. This time the dictionaries all agree with me. Arlon earlier Do you consider yourself a "scientist"? Graham No. Arlon now Perhaps I speak for many scientists when I say thank you for that. Graham I have some qualifications in science. I used to teach science. But those are very different things than being a scientist. Arlon now I'm a bigger fan of the creative use of definitions than some people realize. Graham With no due respect Arlon now <Me showing no surprise> Graham your opinions on it really don't count for anything. Arlon now If you mean on this board, then you have somewhat a point, but then here your opinions mean even less. Graham A movie can depict science or refer to scientific findings Arlon now I was saying. Graham So far this is simply another claim with nothing to back it up. Arlon now From some points of view that would be true, but only from those points of view. It was my point to make that clear. Graham "how do you know this happened at all"? Arlon now It's called "forensics." I have credentials. Graham If a "darwinist" presented a paper on some aspect of evolution which summed up to "somebody told me that they saw this species evolve and they said it was definitely evolution," he would be laughed out of the room. Arlon now So I've noticed. Graham The amusing thing about people who buy into this stuff is that when it comes to a branch of science that they don't like, the no mountain of evidence can be big enough to convince them. Arlon now Again. Graham So thus far, the facts indicate that Arlon now You're forgetting where you are and that your opinions here mean even less than mine. Graham This is what I struggle to understand about this anecdote. You keep talking about "spiritual" or "supernatural" phenomena, but the only story you have actually cited is a kid who painted paintings. Arlon now That's most imprecise of you. The story of the kid painting is just one of many cases you would "drown" in. I use it only because it illustrates the problems of the dynamics involved in the other cases. Graham the James Randi Educational Foundation Arlon now Didn't you know? I'm James Randi! In a manner of speaking I am anyway. I'm just as much a scientist and just as skeptical. I have just as many proofs to show you that you would recognize not being a first hand observer. Graham And in every case, when the test was then carried out the person failed. Arlon now There's a lot of that going around.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 13:37:02 GMT
So to summarise : still no evidence.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 2, 2017 13:54:16 GMT
So to summarise : still no evidence. Have you tried getting a magnifying glass? And maybe one of those "Sherlock Holmes" hats?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 14:00:59 GMT
Arlon earlier Things we shouldn't dismiss because they might be true are called "evidence." Like the way you constantly claim to have evidence and then constantly fail to post it? Yes, that is funny. No. Really? I would have said that your creative use of definitions is perhaps your defining quality. No, just in general. And I've been pointing out that you are wrong about that. And yet you don't have any evidence. Or at least, you haven't produced any. So once again, you claim there is all this evidence... you just haven't produced it. But it's definitely there! That's nice for you. No you aren't. Gosh, now you're mixing up "proof" and "evidence". How naughty of you. Indeed. Every single time the supernatural is tested it fails. A cynic might think it wasn't there at all. So might a skeptic.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 14:02:36 GMT
So to summarise : still no evidence. Have you tried getting a magnifying glass? And maybe one of those "Sherlock Holmes" hats? No, but I tried asking this guy who claims he has lots of evidence. I asked him over and over. And do you know, he just responded with bullshit every single time! Amazing.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 2, 2017 17:41:50 GMT
Have you tried getting a magnifying glass? And maybe one of those "Sherlock Holmes" hats? No, but I tried asking this guy who claims he has lots of evidence. I asked him over and over. And do you know, he just responded with bullshit every single time! Amazing. If only you've gained a better appreciation of crime scene tape then maybe it wasn't a waste of time after all. Crime scene tape is what the police put up around a crime scene to prevent unregistered traffic through the scene where critical evidence might be found. That's to ensure no tampering with evidence. You know as well as anyone how there would be "no evidence" otherwise. So you've got that at least.
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Post by papalazarou on Jul 2, 2017 21:22:09 GMT
You haven't produced any, Arlon. You told us a story about a little girl who is a good painter. And then you claimed that some people have supernatural abilities. And we shouldn't dismiss that, because it might be true. But evidence? You merely blather about how there absolutely IS evidence, oh yes, it's so obvious that only idiots would deny it. But you've posted none, and you will post none. Because you don't actually have any. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AkianeIn her very first encounter with the supernatural, four and a half year-old Akiane Kramarik is said to have mysteriously vanished for a period of time, in which she is claimed to have transcended time and space and entered temporarily into a higher spiritual realm. “Undetectable, I remember splitting into a myriad fragments, hundreds upon hundreds of eyes that could see in all directions and participate in many imperative planetary and extra-planetary proceedings all at the same time. Then, after many long hours, I reappeared in the midst of numerous eye-witnesses, right by the windows in the crescent shaped corridor of our house. Neither my family, nor the officers, nor I could comprehend what had really happened, nor did we discuss it any more as it carried rather distressing and inexplicable association.”[11] "When only 4, Akiane told her astonished parents that she had been to heaven with Jesus. In fact, this was her simple explanation of her mysterious absence of several hours – during which time they frantically searched for her. (More of the Akiane’s story can be found in her biography, Akiane: Her Life, Her Art, Her Poetry.) Following Akiane’s visits to heaven, she was determined to capture her heavenly experiences. From age 4 to 8, she created hundreds of sketches. She also fascinated her parents with descriptions of her heavenly dreams, visions, and messages from Jesus. "At age 6 Akaine was asked by her Lord and Savior, Yeshua, to share the real face of Jesus with the world by painting a portrait of Jesus that would capture His compassion and His love of all mankind. With her parents’ help, Akiane began to search in earnest for someone on earth who’s facial features resembled the images of Jesus she had experienced in her heavenly encounters with Yeshua, Jesus our Messiah. Desperately wanting to paint portraits of Jesus, Akiane spent endless hours in malls, stores, and public events searching for the right face. Her search went on for over a year – no one she saw resembled Jesus! Totally undone and frustrated, Akiane asked her family to pray with her as she went to God for help. She prayed, 'I can’t do this anymore, God. This is it. I can’t find anyone by myself. I need You to send me the right Model.' "The very next day, Akiane’s prayers were answered! "The doorbell rang. The visitor was a bearded man, over 6 feet tall, with strong hands and a warm smile. His demeanor was a balance of meekness and poise. He was a modern-day carpenter! Akiane said in Lithuanian, “Tai jis! – This is He!” The mysterious carpenter God had sent to Akaine was available for only 3 days, yet Akiane was so thankful! She sketched him from every possible angle. Then, at age 8 and in just 40 hours, the Jesus “Prince of Peace” painting was created! This was over a decade ago. Today the internationally acclaimed “Prince of Peace” painting is recognized by believers around the world as the Real Face of Jesus. Well @graham , if evidence like this doesn't convince you I'm not sure what will
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 21:24:13 GMT
You haven't produced any, Arlon. You told us a story about a little girl who is a good painter. And then you claimed that some people have supernatural abilities. And we shouldn't dismiss that, because it might be true. But evidence? You merely blather about how there absolutely IS evidence, oh yes, it's so obvious that only idiots would deny it. But you've posted none, and you will post none. Because you don't actually have any. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AkianeIn her very first encounter with the supernatural, four and a half year-old Akiane Kramarik is said to have mysteriously vanished for a period of time, in which she is claimed to have transcended time and space and entered temporarily into a higher spiritual realm. “Undetectable, I remember splitting into a myriad fragments, hundreds upon hundreds of eyes that could see in all directions and participate in many imperative planetary and extra-planetary proceedings all at the same time. Then, after many long hours, I reappeared in the midst of numerous eye-witnesses, right by the windows in the crescent shaped corridor of our house. Neither my family, nor the officers, nor I could comprehend what had really happened, nor did we discuss it any more as it carried rather distressing and inexplicable association.”[11] "When only 4, Akiane told her astonished parents that she had been to heaven with Jesus. In fact, this was her simple explanation of her mysterious absence of several hours – during which time they frantically searched for her. (More of the Akiane’s story can be found in her biography, Akiane: Her Life, Her Art, Her Poetry.) Following Akiane’s visits to heaven, she was determined to capture her heavenly experiences. From age 4 to 8, she created hundreds of sketches. She also fascinated her parents with descriptions of her heavenly dreams, visions, and messages from Jesus. "At age 6 Akaine was asked by her Lord and Savior, Yeshua, to share the real face of Jesus with the world by painting a portrait of Jesus that would capture His compassion and His love of all mankind. With her parents’ help, Akiane began to search in earnest for someone on earth who’s facial features resembled the images of Jesus she had experienced in her heavenly encounters with Yeshua, Jesus our Messiah. Desperately wanting to paint portraits of Jesus, Akiane spent endless hours in malls, stores, and public events searching for the right face. Her search went on for over a year – no one she saw resembled Jesus! Totally undone and frustrated, Akiane asked her family to pray with her as she went to God for help. She prayed, 'I can’t do this anymore, God. This is it. I can’t find anyone by myself. I need You to send me the right Model.' "The very next day, Akiane’s prayers were answered! "The doorbell rang. The visitor was a bearded man, over 6 feet tall, with strong hands and a warm smile. His demeanor was a balance of meekness and poise. He was a modern-day carpenter! Akiane said in Lithuanian, “Tai jis! – This is He!” The mysterious carpenter God had sent to Akaine was available for only 3 days, yet Akiane was so thankful! She sketched him from every possible angle. Then, at age 8 and in just 40 hours, the Jesus “Prince of Peace” painting was created! This was over a decade ago. Today the internationally acclaimed “Prince of Peace” painting is recognized by believers around the world as the Real Face of Jesus. Well @graham , if evidence like this doesn't convince you I'm not sure what will Yeah, everyone must immediately believe in the supernatural. Also, I have this bridge I'd like to sell everyone...
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Post by faustus5 on Jul 2, 2017 21:27:12 GMT
Well @graham , if evidence like this doesn't convince you I'm not sure what will Either you don't know what the word "evidence" means, or you have no standards to speak of. Or maybe both.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 2, 2017 22:04:05 GMT
Hopefully your self departs to Valhalla
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