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Post by thorshairspray on Jun 25, 2017 16:46:58 GMT
How many right wing terrorists have run vans into Mosques in the UK in the last 7 decades? Just the one, so statistics are pretty meaningless at this point. However, they have always had a history of violence against minorities. Muslims have been the favourite minority to pick on these last couple decades, but they'll pick on any minority which is the enemy du jour. My point precisely, which I will explain after your last paragraph. "Unchecked immigration" means immigration without limits. No border controls, no restrictions, no nothing. This is not remotely the case. The borders are not wide open, as some would have you believe. What it means is that xenophobes wildly exaggerate the problem with immigration, especially the kind of immigration of people who look different. Muslims comprise maybe 5% of the population on average in European countries, but listening to right-wingers you'd think we were being overrun. The tensions are caused by fear, but most of this fear is not rational. The immigrants, on their part, are also afraid, because even though the xenophobic hate mongerers comprise but a small part of the population, they are very vocal and naturally give immigrants the impression that they're in a majority. So naturally they are not going to instantly fall in love with the locals. So it's not the immigration itself which is the problem, but human fear - which is part of our nature. Everyone wants change, but everyone hates change. People generally don't want the world to end up looking too different from what they were accustomed to growing up. And so to combat any unwelcome change, they blow it out of proportion. Just look at all the comments when Sadiq Khan became mayor of London. All sorts of ridiculously paranoid comments such as "Sharia next", references to terrorism and that sort of thing. So while lots of right-wingers may claim that they are not saying all Muslims are terrorists, we clearly see that some actually do see all Muslims as terrorists. This sort of thinking is not healthy. That just isn't true. In the UK blacks and mixed race individuals remain more likely to be victims of hate crimes as do gays. Religiously motivated hate crime made up about 6% of the total recorded by police in 2015. And that doesn't factor in the race or religion of the attacker. Even if all religious hate crime was by whites against Muslims, they still wouldn't be the primary victims because Jews are attacked more than Muslims. What is the limit to migration on the Italian route? Or the Balkan route and who is policing it? How many migrants from the third World are currently in Europe? We have no idea. Ah, so does that explain why migrants are so massively over represented in crime figures and prison populations? Isn't it 70% of the prison population in Belgium? Just racism I guess...You say the tensions are caused by fear and yes, they probably are, but also suppose those fears are unfounded. Why did swimming pools in Germany ban migrant men? Why did night clubs in Austria ban men who didn't speak English or German? Why did the Germans give temp tattoos to kids with "No! Nein!" on them? Why did the men of Stockholm have to chase migrant gangs out of the central station? Why are services refusing to go into migrant areas in Sweden? Why was a British child killed in Stockholm by a grenade? Why were kids in Bristol groomed by a Somali gang? The picture you paint is one of lovely harmony, with frothing Nazis utterly appalled by the wonderful diversity. Tell the women of Cologne or the kids of Bristol that their fears are just fascist scaremongering. There are real problems. Real problems that have been ignored for a decade and the result is going to be more innocent deaths of all races and faiths.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 25, 2017 17:18:22 GMT
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 25, 2017 17:28:59 GMT
You poor thing are you not able to afford that new TV you wanted? People are starving in Africa? Fuck them, I want my TV. When did you turn into such a mug? You realise that these people are paying to get here? Starving people, mainly men, do not travel 4000 miles. Again, for the emotionally incompetent. Europe and The West can do MORE to help the developing World by using it's resources on developing nations rather than importing people, mainly men, from them. Have you ever been to Africa? Have you seen the desperate conditions they are forced to live in due to the first world exploiting them, the first world hogging all the wealth and past colonialism?
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Post by thorshairspray on Jun 25, 2017 20:58:49 GMT
When did you turn into such a mug? You realise that these people are paying to get here? Starving people, mainly men, do not travel 4000 miles. Again, for the emotionally incompetent. Europe and The West can do MORE to help the developing World by using it's resources on developing nations rather than importing people, mainly men, from them. Have you ever been to Africa? Have you seen the desperate conditions they are forced to live in due to the first world exploiting them, the first world hogging all the wealth and past colonialism? No, I have not been to Africa. Once more, The West can help more people by investing in poor countries than it can by bringing the population to Europe. Look, "refugees" cost the Swedish tax payer about $58,000 each per year. Now currently the GDP per capita in Somalia is about $190. Sweden cannot sustain what it spend on migrants and is borrowing to pay for their social care. So what makes more sense? Sweden spends $18,000,000,000 on migrants, or spends $5,000,000,000 on Somalia?
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 25, 2017 21:30:47 GMT
Obviously it is not enough. That is why so many people want to come to the West.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jun 25, 2017 23:15:04 GMT
Obviously it is not enough. That is why so many people want to come to the West. So what? Europe cannot help the World. What we can do is help more people by not opening our borders. In a pure numbers game we can help tens of millions by letting them in, at the expense of our social security systems and our own working class. Or we can help hundreds of millions and retain our own way of life and standard of living. It's a no brainer and I'm not going to let appeals to guilt or emotion cloud logic.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 26, 2017 0:27:47 GMT
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 26, 2017 9:43:38 GMT
So what? Europe cannot help the World. What we can do is help more people by not opening our borders. In a pure numbers game we can help tens of millions by letting them in, at the expense of our social security systems and our own working class. Or we can help hundreds of millions and retain our own way of life and standard of living. It's a no brainer and I'm not going to let appeals to guilt or emotion cloud logic. Who gives a fuck? You poor thing will you not be able to afford a new phone? I really feel for you not being able to afford those first world goodies.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jun 26, 2017 11:31:58 GMT
So what? Europe cannot help the World. What we can do is help more people by not opening our borders. In a pure numbers game we can help tens of millions by letting them in, at the expense of our social security systems and our own working class. Or we can help hundreds of millions and retain our own way of life and standard of living. It's a no brainer and I'm not going to let appeals to guilt or emotion cloud logic. Who gives a fuck? You poor thing will you not be able to afford a new phone? I really feel for you not being able to afford those first world goodies. I already told you your appeals to emotion won't work on me. Do you want to deal in facts and reality or cry like an 18 year old gender studies student? Over 100,000 Britons are homeless Over 3,000,000 people are on NHS waiting lists. Upto 4,000,000 Britons are living below the poverty line. Since 1995, non EU migrants have cost the UK economy £118,000,000,000. The cost to the Swedish tax payer for one migrant is $58,000 per year. This is higher than the average wage in Sweden. Allowing millions of working age men to come to Europe costs the European taxpayer and damages the countries they left. It is not the solution to third world poverty.
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 26, 2017 11:43:30 GMT
Who gives a fuck? You poor thing will you not be able to afford a new phone? I really feel for you not being able to afford those first world goodies. I already told you your appeals to emotion won't work on me. Do you want to deal in facts and reality or cry like an 18 year old gender studies student? Over 100,000 Britons are homeless Over 3,000,000 people are on NHS waiting lists. Upto 4,000,000 Britons are living below the poverty line. Since 1995, non EU migrants have cost the UK economy £118,000,000,000. The cost to the Swedish tax payer for one migrant is $58,000 per year. This is higher than the average wage in Sweden. Allowing millions of working age men to come to Europe costs the European taxpayer and damages the countries they left. It is not the solution to third world poverty. You haven't addressed a thing I have said why do first world luxuries trump starving people? www.philosophybro.com/archive/peter-singers-drowning-child-argument
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Post by thorshairspray on Jun 26, 2017 12:08:13 GMT
I already told you your appeals to emotion won't work on me. Do you want to deal in facts and reality or cry like an 18 year old gender studies student? Over 100,000 Britons are homeless Over 3,000,000 people are on NHS waiting lists. Upto 4,000,000 Britons are living below the poverty line. Since 1995, non EU migrants have cost the UK economy £118,000,000,000. The cost to the Swedish tax payer for one migrant is $58,000 per year. This is higher than the average wage in Sweden. Allowing millions of working age men to come to Europe costs the European taxpayer and damages the countries they left. It is not the solution to third world poverty. You haven't addressed a thing I have said why do first world luxuries trump starving people? www.philosophybro.com/archive/peter-singers-drowning-child-argumentYou're on the internet, hypocrite.
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 26, 2017 12:21:11 GMT
You're on the internet, hypocrite. You are poisoning the well.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jun 26, 2017 13:52:21 GMT
You're on the internet, hypocrite. You are poisoning the well. Really? Because you were bashing a strawman about luxuries trumping starving people. Economic migrants are not starving people. We can go through it again if you like? Migrants are a drain on the economy. Europe can help more people by having a stronger economy. Thus migration helps less people. What part of this do you not get? If you get it do you actually have an argument against it? Or are you going to continue waling about my need to have my luxuries at the expense of the starving from your smartphone, in your house, on the internet, in your irony free zone?
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 26, 2017 13:58:13 GMT
You are poisoning the well. Really? Because you were bashing a strawman about luxuries trumping starving people. Economic migrants are not starving people. We can go through it again if you like? Migrants are a drain on the economy. Europe can help more people by having a stronger economy. Thus migration helps less people. What part of this do you not get? If you get it do you actually have an argument against it? Or are you going to continue waling about my need to have my luxuries at the expense of the starving from your smartphone, in your house, on the internet, in your irony free zone? They are fleeing desperate economic conditions. Who cares if it harms the economy? Just take it on the chin and stop looking out for yourself. Aid does nothing compared to letting people in.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 26, 2017 15:45:32 GMT
tpfkar Between 2001 and 2011 the UK-born population contributed £617,000,000,000 less in taxes than they received in benefits over that period. The study from UCL”s Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration found that there was a 40% chance that the average Briton claims tax credits or benefits, compared to 23% for new immigrants since 2000 and a 24% chance for non-EU immigrants. The £118 billion cost attributed to migrants may actually be much smaller, as the report’s authors attribute the cost of children’s health and education to migrants, while their future tax payments are attributed to natives. At least go through the motions of a fuller picture rather than clipping just the bits that push your narrative. no platforming culture
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Post by thorshairspray on Jun 26, 2017 17:05:30 GMT
Really? Because you were bashing a strawman about luxuries trumping starving people. Economic migrants are not starving people. We can go through it again if you like? Migrants are a drain on the economy. Europe can help more people by having a stronger economy. Thus migration helps less people. What part of this do you not get? If you get it do you actually have an argument against it? Or are you going to continue waling about my need to have my luxuries at the expense of the starving from your smartphone, in your house, on the internet, in your irony free zone? They are fleeing desperate economic conditions. Who cares if it harms the economy? Just take it on the chin and stop looking out for yourself. Aid does nothing compared to letting people in. I do. Since the economy functioning means I get to keep my job and therefore my house. At what point do we stop our economy degrading. Sweden is already borrowing to pay for its immigration policy. Thus its economy is already on the decline and it shows no sign of changing direction any time soon. Why should I? You don't. Almost nobody in the West does. I'm perfectly happy to give money to the homeless. I'm also happy for tax payer money to help them. I am not going to let one sleep in my house. Bullshit. If you are a 30 year old Somalian man, who has made the trip from Somalia to Libya, then paid smugglers to get you to Italy or Greece, then made your way to Northern Europe, you probably aren't the person most needing of help in Somalia are you? Mass migration has had a demonstrably negative affect on crime rates, prosperity and social cohesion. But if that helps you sleep at night, fine. Me? I want to keep Europe stable and help people in their own countries. Like Europe used to do before it lost its shit.
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 26, 2017 17:42:02 GMT
They are fleeing desperate economic conditions. Who cares if it harms the economy? Just take it on the chin and stop looking out for yourself. Aid does nothing compared to letting people in. I do. Since the economy functioning means I get to keep my job and therefore my house. At what point do we stop our economy degrading. Sweden is already borrowing to pay for its immigration policy. Thus its economy is already on the decline and it shows no sign of changing direction any time soon. Why should I? You don't. Almost nobody in the West does. I'm perfectly happy to give money to the homeless. I'm also happy for tax payer money to help them. I am not going to let one sleep in my house. Bullshit. If you are a 30 year old Somalian man, who has made the trip from Somalia to Libya, then paid smugglers to get you to Italy or Greece, then made your way to Northern Europe, you probably aren't the person most needing of help in Somalia are you? Mass migration has had a demonstrably negative affect on crime rates, prosperity and social cohesion. But if that helps you sleep at night, fine. Me? I want to keep Europe stable and help people in their own countries. Like Europe used to do before it lost its shit. There is no evidence immigration leads to a mass downward spiral in economic conditions. You have a moral responsibility to take it on the chin, try not to think of yourself for once. What makes you think I don't? Sure they aren't needing the most help but if you are willing to pay smugglers to get you into a country illegally via a trip that could potentially cost you your life then you are definitetly desperate. Do yiu have any Compassion whatsoever? www.scientificamerican.com/article/immigrants-do-not-increase-crime-research-shows/
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Post by thorshairspray on Jun 26, 2017 18:13:44 GMT
I do. Since the economy functioning means I get to keep my job and therefore my house. At what point do we stop our economy degrading. Sweden is already borrowing to pay for its immigration policy. Thus its economy is already on the decline and it shows no sign of changing direction any time soon. Why should I? You don't. Almost nobody in the West does. I'm perfectly happy to give money to the homeless. I'm also happy for tax payer money to help them. I am not going to let one sleep in my house. Bullshit. If you are a 30 year old Somalian man, who has made the trip from Somalia to Libya, then paid smugglers to get you to Italy or Greece, then made your way to Northern Europe, you probably aren't the person most needing of help in Somalia are you? Mass migration has had a demonstrably negative affect on crime rates, prosperity and social cohesion. But if that helps you sleep at night, fine. Me? I want to keep Europe stable and help people in their own countries. Like Europe used to do before it lost its shit. There is no evidence immigration leads to a mass downward spiral in economic conditions. You have a moral responsibility to take it on the chin, try not to think of yourself for once. What makes you think I don't? Sure they aren't needing the most help but if you are willing to pay smugglers to get you into a country illegally via a trip that could potentially cost you your life then you are definitetly desperate. Do yiu have any Compassion whatsoever? www.scientificamerican.com/article/immigrants-do-not-increase-crime-research-shows/That wasn't what I said, was it? No I don't. I have zero responsibility, moral or otherwise to sacrifice anything for others outside of family and social circle. I certainly have no responsibility to "take it on the chin" where my nations economy and social systems are at stake. Do you have things you don't need to survive? Do you eat treats and drink things you don't need to ? Do you spend money on entertainment? Yes, you do, so don't give me this "Yoo weantz teh nu Iphone n people r strving n stuff, yu is teh badz" bullshit. At may very well do what a lot of the rest of us do, give to charities, that doesn't make you morally superior to anyone. So in your head we should focus the maximum resources on the people from the third world who need the least help, because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy? Rather than use the maximum resources to help more people including those that need it most because you can't see the result and don't get to feel great about yourself. Or stupid, or lied to. From the guy who justified terrorists killing children? Pot meet kettle.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 26, 2017 18:21:27 GMT
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 26, 2017 19:31:47 GMT
There is no evidence immigration leads to a mass downward spiral in economic conditions. You have a moral responsibility to take it on the chin, try not to think of yourself for once. What makes you think I don't? Sure they aren't needing the most help but if you are willing to pay smugglers to get you into a country illegally via a trip that could potentially cost you your life then you are definitetly desperate. Do yiu have any Compassion whatsoever? www.scientificamerican.com/article/immigrants-do-not-increase-crime-research-shows/That wasn't what I said, was it? No I don't. I have zero responsibility, moral or otherwise to sacrifice anything for others outside of family and social circle. I certainly have no responsibility to "take it on the chin" where my nations economy and social systems are at stake. Do you have things you don't need to survive? Do you eat treats and drink things you don't need to ? Do you spend money on entertainment? Yes, you do, so don't give me this "Yoo weantz teh nu Iphone n people r strving n stuff, yu is teh badz" bullshit. At may very well do what a lot of the rest of us do, give to charities, that doesn't make you morally superior to anyone. So in your head we should focus the maximum resources on the people from the third world who need the least help, because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy? Rather than use the maximum resources to help more people including those that need it most because you can't see the result and don't get to feel great about yourself. Or stupid, or lied to. From the guy who justified terrorists killing children? Pot meet kettle. All immigration does economically is cause the economy to stumble a little. Whether you know someone or not is irrelevant to morally responsiblity. If I didn't spend money to enjoy myself I might commit suicide due to depression, it's not worth the risk. When did I say focus the maximum resources (whatever that even means) only on immigrants? It is well established those in the third world know you can die (as many have) in the trip to Europe. Many of their relatives of gone missing, never to be heard of again on such trips. I never justified that. I said the IRA were not to blame. A warning was given.
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