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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jun 26, 2017 19:32:59 GMT
www.flickeringmyth.com/2017/06/rumoured-description-for-the-new-justice-league-trailer-includes-supermans-return/
This is all based on rumors of course, but...
There's a rumor that Superman will make appearance in the next trailer. There's also a rumor that he's going to be used in a bad guy capacity. If the above link is to be believed then it seems like maybe its true(?)
Good idea or bad? I think bad. Very bad. Superman has not been used very heroically so far, and he's been depicted as being divisive to the average citizens within the story.
If they use him as a villain, even if he's only brainwashed or something, wont that further the idea that he's not a heroic character in this version of DC movies? Its not like he's the Hulk who goes either way depending on the scenario.
I want him to be heroic and inspirational, not divisive. I don't feel like he's still fully taken his place as the great hero that people look up to, and I was hoping that this movie would do that. But I'm getting the feeling that they're going to make him go against the JL. Its like going backwards instead of moving him forward. What do you guys think?
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Post by politicidal on Jun 26, 2017 21:56:56 GMT
The chance of us seeing that reintroduction to the character is 50/50. As we saw with BVS, just because it's divisive doesn't mean Zack Snyder would stave from it.
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Post by leesilm on Jun 28, 2017 1:44:33 GMT
I'm hoping we don't get Supes as a baddie. I don't mind him being sort of 'lost' and needing brought back to being the man/superhero he was. You could do it that when he regenerated, he saw what his being Superman did to Lois and his mom, plus he got a taste of "the better the hero, the bigger the they make the bad guys" that Batman has been dealing with for 20 years... so he might have decided Martha & Lois were better off without him and go back to laying low. This time he doesn't have Jonathan or Jor-El to pop up and say, "Get your act together boy and get back to the cape & the women who love you!".
I could also see doing something where he hasn't fully recovered, and maybe even has some remaining issues (i.e. Wolverine having no memory thanks to the bullet in his brain in the WOLVERINE first stand-alone movie) and he's still recovering. So when he does show up, either he isn't back 100% or he has been having trouble on his own and had decided to stay out it, only to have the League need him so he just takes off, not even sure he can help, and BAM his powers are back.
I admit, I am not much on a super tortured, super self-doubting Superman. I like my dark, conflicted, more-issues-than-National-Geographic stuff to come from Batman with Superman being the beacon of hope. I may just be old fashioned that way. Which is why I would rather see him being 'lost' and needing the team to bring him back around to himself. I don't want him to be manipulated into being the villain or just being so out of sorts that he is the bad guy. (Leave the getting-made-into-an-Earth-conquerer who has to fight a team of Super heroes, to Loki, alright?)
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jun 28, 2017 14:44:43 GMT
I'm hoping we don't get Supes as a baddie... I like my dark, conflicted stuff to come from Batman with Superman being the beacon of hope. Leave the getting-made-into-an-Earth-conquerer who has to fight a team of Super heroes, to Loki, alright? ^^^THIS^^^
We'll see, I guess. I like Snyder alright, but he is gloomy. Maybe Whedon will make some positive changes(?)
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jun 29, 2017 4:25:21 GMT
I'm hoping we don't get Supes as a baddie. I don't mind him being sort of 'lost' and needing brought back to being the man/superhero he was. You could do it that when he regenerated, he saw what his being Superman did to Lois and his mom, plus he got a taste of "the better the hero, the bigger the they make the bad guys" that Batman has been dealing with for 20 years... so he might have decided Martha & Lois were better off without him and go back to laying low. This time he doesn't have Jonathan or Jor-El to pop up and say, "Get your act together boy and get back to the cape & the women who love you!". Well, they basically already did that in BvS. I'm fine with Superman showing you as a temporary bad guy under mind control or whatever. That Knightmare scene has to have some kind of payoff. My idea in another thread was that he shows up under Darkseid's control, then Batman remembers the "Lois Lane is the key" stuff and uses her to bring Supes back to the light.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jun 29, 2017 14:35:33 GMT
I'm hoping we don't get Supes as a baddie. I don't mind him being sort of 'lost' and needing brought back to being the man/superhero he was. You could do it that when he regenerated, he saw what his being Superman did to Lois and his mom, plus he got a taste of "the better the hero, the bigger the they make the bad guys" that Batman has been dealing with for 20 years... so he might have decided Martha & Lois were better off without him and go back to laying low. This time he doesn't have Jonathan or Jor-El to pop up and say, "Get your act together boy and get back to the cape & the women who love you!". Well, they basically already did that in BvS. I'm fine with Superman showing you(up) as a temporary bad guy under mind control or whatever. That Knightmare scene has to have some kind of payoff. My idea in another thread was that he shows up under Darkseid's control, then Batman remembers the "Lois Lane is the key" stuff and uses her to bring Supes back to the light. But see, that's what I DONT want. If he's shown, even momentarily, as being a bad guy then it all goes that much more against him being seen as the heroic figure he should already be, but isn't yet.
I always thought the Knightmare stuff could be interpreted many ways. For example, what if its not that Superman is a bad guy, but rather that he's just pissed off because Batman did something that led to Lois's death? Interpreted that way its Batman who's the bad guy. As a matter, of fact I hope that it does come out a different way than what we've been led to believe because, at this point, that would be a nice twist.
And anyway, if Superman is a bad guy in this, and they were already against one another in BvS, then when the hell do we get to the point where Superman and Batman are friends and actually work together? That's what we all want to see. Whats all this other stuff?
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Post by leesilm on Jun 29, 2017 20:25:26 GMT
I just want Supes to be the beacon of hope he's supposed to be.
WW can be the one whose hope is tattered and shaken, but still she fights on to try to bring about a better world.
Bats is there to deal with the darkness and the oppressive weight of all that is broken, and now learning to hope again.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jun 29, 2017 20:49:41 GMT
Well, they basically already did that in BvS. I'm fine with Superman showing you(up) as a temporary bad guy under mind control or whatever. That Knightmare scene has to have some kind of payoff. My idea in another thread was that he shows up under Darkseid's control, then Batman remembers the "Lois Lane is the key" stuff and uses her to bring Supes back to the light. But see, that's what I DONT want. If he's shown, even momentarily, as being a bad guy then it all goes that much more against him being seen as the heroic figure he should already be, but isn't yet.
I always thought the Knightmare stuff could be interpreted many ways. For example, what if its not that Superman is a bad guy, but rather that he's just pissed off because Batman did something that led to Lois's death? Interpreted that way its Batman who's the bad guy. As a matter, of fact I hope that it does come out a different way than what we've been led to believe because, at this point, that would be a nice twist.
And anyway, if Superman is a bad guy in this, and they were already against one another in BvS, then when the hell do we get to the point where Superman and Batman are friends and actually work together? That's what we all want to see. Whats all this other stuff?
In what circumstances can Batman be the bad guy when Superman rules Earth and has an army of parademons? I just think the damage to Superman is already done. All I ask now is for movies that make sense.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jun 30, 2017 19:36:09 GMT
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Post by jaystarstar on Jun 30, 2017 19:55:58 GMT
They should leave Superman dead. Kill him off for real.
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barkingbaphomet
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Post by barkingbaphomet on Jun 30, 2017 20:04:57 GMT
the only way Supes as the antagonist works is after he has been established as the great big blue boy scout that he is. it's not only the power he wields that makes it scary or interesting: it's the reversal of his paragon status and the betrayal (unwilling or no) of a trusted ally.
since it's premature to enter into this thematically i think it's safe to expect that WB will allow it to happen.
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Post by politicidal on Jun 30, 2017 23:42:24 GMT
the only way Supes as the antagonist works is after he has been established as the great big blue boy scout that he is. it's not only the power he wields that makes it scary or interesting: it's the reversal of his paragon status and the betrayal (unwilling or no) of a trusted ally. since it's premature to enter into this thematically i think it's safe to expect that WB will allow it to happen. I mean, is there anything in writing suggesting they objected to something or said to Snyder "oh no that's too much" by chance? In a sense it's amazing they killed him off in the first place if they're so hellbent on this shared universe.
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Post by gromel on Jul 2, 2017 7:43:01 GMT
Trust in Whedon to fix it. WB is on the ropes so they better swing for the fences. At least Snyder is out, though in such a horrible way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 15:05:27 GMT
Does every superhero have to be a conflicted emo? Christopher Reeve was the best Superman in part because his altruism was so natural to the character.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 7:38:04 GMT
Does every superhero have to be a conflicted emo? Christopher Reeve was the best Superman in part because his altruism was so natural to the character. Unfortunately, unless they learn the right lesson from Wonder Woman, the DCEU is going to continue to be Randist propaganda.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 3, 2017 19:22:34 GMT
Does every superhero have to be a conflicted emo? Christopher Reeve was the best Superman in part because his altruism was so natural to the character. Unfortunately, unless they learn the right lesson from Wonder Woman, the DCEU is going to continue to be Randist propaganda. Wait, what? Randist as is Ayn Rand? What the hell is Randist about the DCEU? I gotta hear this one....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 19:30:38 GMT
Unfortunately, unless they learn the right lesson from Wonder Woman, the DCEU is going to continue to be Randist propaganda. Wait, what? Randist as is Ayn Rand? What the hell is Randist about the DCEU? I gotta hear this one.... Apart from MoS, BvS, and SS's cynical views of altruism? These films treat being a hero like a grim responsibility instead of something you do out of kindness or valor. And even then, the heroes go about in crooked ways that aren't even remotely heroic. Pa Kent telling Clark to let bus-loads of children drown in the name of remaining anonymous? Tornadocide? Batman being an amoral psychopath to the point where freakin' Dead-Shot and Deadpool are a more believable heroes (and even the former had to be coerced into it)? Hell, Wonder Woman is the only one so far to actually be heroic, and then the narrative of her film goes out of its way to show her acts of heroism to be naive and misguided, at best.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Jul 3, 2017 19:42:28 GMT
Wait, what? Randist as is Ayn Rand? What the hell is Randist about the DCEU? I gotta hear this one.... Apart from MoS, BvS, and SS's cynical views of altruism? These films treat being a hero like a grim responsibility instead of something you do out of kindness or valor. And even then, the heroes go about in crooked ways that aren't even remotely heroic. Pa Kent telling Clark to let bus-loads of children drown in the name of remaining anonymous? Tornadocide? Batman being an amoral psychopath to the point where freakin' Dead-Shot and Deadpool are a more believable heroes (and even the former had to be coerced into it)? Hell, Wonder Woman is the only one so far to actually be heroic, and then the narrative of her film goes out of its way to show her acts of heroism to be naive and misguided, at best. Heartily agree that the ( Snyder led ) DCEU films have been a depressing and misguided failure ( so far )
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 3, 2017 20:01:52 GMT
Wait, what? Randist as is Ayn Rand? What the hell is Randist about the DCEU? I gotta hear this one.... Apart from MoS, BvS, and SS's cynical views of altruism? These films treat being a hero like a grim responsibility instead of something you do out of kindness or valor. And even then, the heroes go about in crooked ways that aren't even remotely heroic. Pa Kent telling Clark to let bus-loads of children drown in the name of remaining anonymous? Tornadocide? Batman being an amoral psychopath to the point where freakin' Dead-Shot and Deadpool are a more believable heroes (and even the former had to be coerced into it)? Hell, Wonder Woman is the only one so far to actually be heroic, and then the narrative of her film goes out of its way to show her acts of heroism to be naive and misguided, at best. That's your interpretation. Here's my interpretation: Superman becomes a hero and saves the world in spite of the fact that the world doesn't know what to make of him at first, and in spite of the fact that his father suggests he might be better off not letting the world know about his powers. At the end of BvS Batman lets go of his anger because of the example that Superman gave by giving his life to save the world, again. In fact, Batman is SO moved by his sacrifice that he's going to form the Justice League to even more good than he could do alone. You have a grim outlook on the proceedings. I don't.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 20:06:17 GMT
Apart from MoS, BvS, and SS's cynical views of altruism? These films treat being a hero like a grim responsibility instead of something you do out of kindness or valor. And even then, the heroes go about in crooked ways that aren't even remotely heroic. Pa Kent telling Clark to let bus-loads of children drown in the name of remaining anonymous? Tornadocide? Batman being an amoral psychopath to the point where freakin' Dead-Shot and Deadpool are a more believable heroes (and even the former had to be coerced into it)? Hell, Wonder Woman is the only one so far to actually be heroic, and then the narrative of her film goes out of its way to show her acts of heroism to be naive and misguided, at best. That's your interpretation. Here's my interpretation: Superman becomes a hero and saves the world in spite of the fact that the world doesn't know what to make of him at first, and in spite of the fact that his father suggests he might be better off not letting the world know about his powers. At the end of BvS Batman lets go of his anger because of the example that Superman gave by giving his life to save the world, again. In fact, Batman is SO moved by his sacrifice that he's going to form the Justice League to even more good than he could do alone. You have a grim outlook on the proceedings. I don't. If Pa Kent was just telling Clark to be careful to keep his superpowers a secret, he wouldn't have said "Maybe." It means he was considering saying yes. You do not consider saying to yes to "Should I have let them die?" Yes, the DCEU Batman is SUCH a good person that he hid behind a little girl to make Dead-Shot compliant in his own arrest. Yep, nothing like a man who was motivated by the mugging and murder of his own parents in a dark alley to attack a man and his daughter in a dark alleyway.
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