RedRuth1966
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@redruth1966
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Post by RedRuth1966 on Jul 3, 2017 8:21:54 GMT
Right, but isn't our subspecies H sapiens sapiens more usually called anatomically modern Humans? And (up until the recent find in N. Africa) we appeared/evolved ~200,000 years ago in East Africa? I have to admit I'm quite hazy on the cladisitics of Human evolution. True, but I doubt that particular site was attempting to be that exact. Also, if I understand the recent find correctly, the recent discovery may show that Homo sapiens actually first appeared ~ 300,000 years ago. Other than our species being 100,000 years older than previously thought, I don't think this actually changes anything cladistics wise. It won't change our relationship with Neanderthals who will still be the closest relative to Homo sapiens known to have existed nor will it change the current model that says Neanderthals evolved in Europe from a population of Homo heidelbergensis which had itself evolved from Homo erectus. I have, however, read a few less than impressive claims (at least not impressive to me) that state that all three species: H. heidelbergensis, H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis evolved directly from Homo erectus and that H. heidelbergensis was not an intermediary between H. erectus and the two latter species. If this turns out to be true then this would be a change in the currently understood cladistics. However, everything I've read on the topic suggests that Homo erectus was already on the verge of extinction by the time Homo sapiens evolved, or even by the time Neanderthals evolved so, in my opinion, it still seems more likely that Homo heidelbergensis remains an intermediary species but may have evolved into Homo sapiens earlier than previously thought. Of course, those evil scientists could decide tomorrow that there is only one species in the genus Homo and all the supposed species are actually subspecies and it still wouldn't change the evolutionary history or the fact of human evolution. Have I bored you enough yet? Damn gangster science! I'm not bored a all! Although I'm more interested in the arguments about the root of the tree and how many 'kingdoms' /domains of life there are - probably because it relies on molecular biology rather than fossils. I take your point about possibly arbitrary division into subspecies but anatomically modern Humans seem to be at least 200,000 possibly 300,000 years old which puts Clusium's claim an order of magnitude wrong. I can only aspire to do gangster science, perhaps I'll be recognised one day
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RedRuth1966
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@redruth1966
Posts: 113
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Post by RedRuth1966 on Jul 3, 2017 8:29:36 GMT
Her last link does say that religion may be 200,000 years old. But of course there is no citation given for the claims. Religion in some form or another is roughly 200,000 years old (the earliest estimate I've found being 30,000 using more discriminatory definitions, the oldest being 300,000, but you get the picture). To put that in perspective, homo sapiens as a distinct species is roughly 175,000 years old, with us reaching our modern stature by 40 or 50 thousand years ago. That means religion is older than modern mankind, reaching back to our Neanderthal or homo erectus ancestors.Who said this - ....reaching our modern stature by 40 or 50 thousand years ago ? Is it in one of the links? Because it's bollocks, I think it it relates to the old (racist) view that we weren't properly Human until Europeans (Cro Magnon) appeared about 40-50 000 years ago.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 3, 2017 8:37:12 GMT
Her last link does say that religion may be 200,000 years old. But of course there is no citation given for the claims. Religion in some form or another is roughly 200,000 years old (the earliest estimate I've found being 30,000 using more discriminatory definitions, the oldest being 300,000, but you get the picture). To put that in perspective, homo sapiens as a distinct species is roughly 175,000 years old, with us reaching our modern stature by 40 or 50 thousand years ago. That means religion is older than modern mankind, reaching back to our Neanderthal or homo erectus ancestors.Who said this - ....reaching our modern stature by 40 or 50 thousand years ago ? Is it in one of the links? Because it's bollocks, I think it it relates to the old (racist) view that we weren't properly Human until Europeans (Cro Magnon) appeared about 40-50 000 years ago. The person in her link. It is of course personal view of that blogger as there is not even one citation provided for the claims made. So it has obviously no credibility whatsoever.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 3, 2017 9:31:30 GMT
Her last link does say that religion may be 200,000 years old. But of course there is no citation given for the claims. Religion in some form or another is roughly 200,000 years old (the earliest estimate I've found being 30,000 using more discriminatory definitions, the oldest being 300,000, but you get the picture). To put that in perspective, homo sapiens as a distinct species is roughly 175,000 years old, with us reaching our modern stature by 40 or 50 thousand years ago. That means religion is older than modern mankind, reaching back to our Neanderthal or homo erectus ancestors.Who said this - ....reaching our modern stature by 40 or 50 thousand years ago ? Is it in one of the links? Because it's bollocks, I think it it relates to the old (racist) view that we weren't properly Human until Europeans (Cro Magnon) appeared about 40-50 000 years ago. The worst part about that quote is the claim that neanderthals are our ancestors.
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Post by cupcakes on Jul 3, 2017 17:51:50 GMT
tpfkar clusium said:That would be by primitive people conning other primitives by including common truisms with their bizarre claims in order to fake some aura of depth & credence. The spirit enters into me
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 4, 2017 3:28:11 GMT
You are a liar. Homo sapiens is at least 200,000 years old. Not a single one of your links shows religion is any older than 40,000 years. Stop lying. I'm not lying about anything. I'm still waiting for that evidence. What's the holdup?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2017 3:37:57 GMT
I'm not lying about anything. I'm still waiting for that evidence. What's the holdup? Would you agree that the Neanderthals predated the Cro-Magnons? There is very strong evidence that the Neanderthals had religious beliefs, so isn't it safe to assume the Cro-Magnons had it too? ![](https://s26.postimg.org/gf93ycxax/giveup.gif)
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 4, 2017 4:03:10 GMT
I'm still waiting for that evidence. What's the holdup? Would you agree that the Neanderthals predated the Cro-Magnons? There is very strong evidence that the Neanderthals had religious beliefs, so isn't it safe to assume the Cro-Magnons had it too? ![](https://s26.postimg.org/gf93ycxax/giveup.gif) That actually helps to make my point, so thanks. Cro-Magnons were us - the same species and subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens and lived ~ 40,000 years ago.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2017 4:09:25 GMT
Would you agree that the Neanderthals predated the Cro-Magnons? There is very strong evidence that the Neanderthals had religious beliefs, so isn't it safe to assume the Cro-Magnons had it too? ![](https://s26.postimg.org/gf93ycxax/giveup.gif) That actually helps to make my point, so thanks. Cro-Magnons were us - the same species and subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens and lived ~ 40,000 years ago. And it's safe to assume that they had religious beliefs, since an older and more primitive form of man had them. I'm so glad we understand each other.
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Post by clusium on Jul 4, 2017 4:38:07 GMT
I'm not lying about anything. I'm still waiting for that evidence. What's the holdup? Already gave it.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 4, 2017 5:02:47 GMT
I'm still waiting for that evidence. What's the holdup? Already gave it. You've had it explained to you by at least six people that you have not provided the evidence so now there's no doubt that you are a shameless liar.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2017 5:06:54 GMT
You've had it explained to you by at least six people that you have not provided the evidence so now there's no doubt that you are a shameless liar. It's seemingly impossible for you to disagree with someone and not resort to your cheap little school bully routine, isn't it? By six people, do you mean yourself and five members of your clique?
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 4, 2017 5:06:56 GMT
That actually helps to make my point, so thanks. Cro-Magnons were us - the same species and subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens and lived ~ 40,000 years ago. And it's safe to assume that they had religious beliefs, since an older and more primitive form of man had them. I'm so glad we understand each other. So we still only go back ~ 40,000 years since you haven't shown that, if Neanderthals had religious beliefs, that they developed such belief significantly earlier than Homo sapiens, At that period of time, Neanderthals were no more primitive than Homo sapiens.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jul 4, 2017 5:07:46 GMT
You've had it explained to you by at least six people that you have not provided the evidence so now there's no doubt that you are a shameless liar. It's seemingly impossible for you to disagree with someone and not resort to your cheap little school bully routine, isn't it? By six people, do you mean yourself and five members of your clique? I don't think Thor and AJ have ever applied for membership to my clique.
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Post by clusium on Jul 4, 2017 5:11:12 GMT
You've had it explained to you by at least six people that you have not provided the evidence so now there's no doubt that you are a shameless liar. Yes, I did.
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RedRuth1966
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@redruth1966
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Post by RedRuth1966 on Jul 4, 2017 8:28:09 GMT
I'm still waiting for that evidence. What's the holdup? Already gave it. You really haven't, you linked to a blog post full of factual errors. Our species is at least 200,000 years old, evidence of some kind of belief in supernatural beings is only ~30,000 years old. Even if you count ritual burial of the dead as religious (which is questionable) then you are looking at 100,000 years ago. Your only argument really is that modern behaviour appeared only 50 - 30 kya, in several areas around the planet, but of course religious behaviour is one of the markers for this so it's circular reasoning to believe it supports your argument.
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Post by Superdude6091 on Jul 7, 2017 16:58:39 GMT
My very own call out thread. How pathetic of you. I said you were a Nazi apologist, dumbshit. And it's because you offer apologism for Nazism. Superdude, on the other hand, I called a Nazi BECAUSE HE FUCKING ADVOCATES THE THINGS NAZIS DO. Seriously, jackasses, stop doing those things and you won't be accused of them. It's rather simple. I'd expect even blade or Ada to grasp that (okay, maybe not Ada). It's been a few weeks. Still waiting for evidence that I advocate things that Nazi's do. What seems to be the delay
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 8, 2017 10:41:51 GMT
My very own call out thread. How pathetic of you. I said you were a Nazi apologist, dumbshit. And it's because you offer apologism for Nazism. Superdude, on the other hand, I called a Nazi BECAUSE HE FUCKING ADVOCATES THE THINGS NAZIS DO. Seriously, jackasses, stop doing those things and you won't be accused of them. It's rather simple. I'd expect even blade or Ada to grasp that (okay, maybe not Ada). It's been a few weeks. Still waiting for evidence that I advocate things that Nazi's do. What seems to be the delay Don't hold your breath mate. I've been asking the coward for months to substantiate his bullshit. At some point Vernuf turned into one of those retarded feminist types you see on Youtube, call people names and then run away.
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Post by Superdude6091 on Jul 8, 2017 10:49:38 GMT
It's been a few weeks. Still waiting for evidence that I advocate things that Nazi's do. What seems to be the delay Don't hold your breath mate. I've been asking the coward for months to substantiate his bullshit. At some point Vernuf turned into one of those retarded feminist types you see on Youtube, call people names and then run away. He waited until this thread had dropped of the first page and appeared dead before he posted on here yesterday after a gap of a few weeks.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 8, 2017 11:26:19 GMT
Don't hold your breath mate. I've been asking the coward for months to substantiate his bullshit. At some point Vernuf turned into one of those retarded feminist types you see on Youtube, call people names and then run away. He waited until this thread had dropped of the first page and appeared dead before he posted on here yesterday after a gap of a few weeks. Anyone can make any claim against me they like. I've been called Nazi, fascist, racist, sexist, mysogyinist, homophobic, Alt Right and an apologist for rape, male violence and ring wing extremists. Make any claim you like, but support it. I'll tackle any and every one of those claims. The only people who won't engage are the people who have no argument. Vernuf simply doesn't like his narrative challenged and isn't interested in the truth.
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