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Post by Karl Aksel on Jul 21, 2017 10:08:23 GMT
The way we find a baby's face innocent - without knowledge of all the evils in the world, blameless. The open trust they show towards you. What triggers our protective instincts. Not all prepubescent children would be "innocent" then. What makes you think a pedophile finds that attractive? I'm thinking it's mainly to do with the trusting nature of children, which makes them easy to manipulate. Not that this is necessarily a conscious attraction, because most of us are attracted to this trust that children place in us - though not in a sexual way. For most of us, we are drawn to protect innocence, but for some the attraction goes further. Being a protector gives one a sense of power and entitlement, and while this registers as "responsibility" for most of us, it registers as "opportunity" for some.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jul 21, 2017 10:13:34 GMT
Not all prepubescent children would be "innocent" then. What makes you think a pedophile finds that attractive? I'm thinking it's mainly to do with the trusting nature of children, which makes them easy to manipulate. Not that this is necessarily a conscious attraction, because most of us are attracted to this trust that children place in us - though not in a sexual way. For most of us, we are drawn to protect innocence, but for some the attraction goes further. Being a protector gives one a sense of power and entitlement, and while this registers as "responsibility" for most of us, it registers as "opportunity" for some. Would you consider an 6 year old or an 8 year old to be "innocent"? I have heard people say things like "children shouldn't be allowed to watch porn as it takes away their innocence" or other crazy things like that. How would your definition of innocence apply there? You still have provided no evidence that a child's supposed "innocence" is attractive to pedophiles.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jul 21, 2017 10:22:05 GMT
There is nothing pseudoscientific about the well-established fact that children exude innocence from their appearance So what would be scientific, empirical support of that? www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080226213448.htmJust one link. But there are countless studies into this phenomenon. Why do you think we find babies cute - babies not even of our own species? There are cases of wild animals (mammals all) which have gone out of their way to protect human children. And human instinct to protect the sweet and innocent among humans and animals alike is something I hope you are familiar with, first hand.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jul 21, 2017 10:29:34 GMT
I'm thinking it's mainly to do with the trusting nature of children, which makes them easy to manipulate. Not that this is necessarily a conscious attraction, because most of us are attracted to this trust that children place in us - though not in a sexual way. For most of us, we are drawn to protect innocence, but for some the attraction goes further. Being a protector gives one a sense of power and entitlement, and while this registers as "responsibility" for most of us, it registers as "opportunity" for some. Would you consider an 6 year old or an 8 year old to be "innocent"? I have heard people say things like "children shouldn't be allowed to watch porn as it takes away their innocence" or other crazy things like that. How would your definition of innocence apply there? You still have provided no evidence that a child's supposed "innocence" is attractive to pedophiles. Like I said, I am talking about perceived innocence. I know full well that children aren't as innocent as adults would like to think. And that's precisely the point: Adults think them innocent. And since you asked my opinions, I offered my opinions. Now you're asking for evidence? It's not like you've provided any yourself. How about you address what I said instead, perhaps offer your own opinion as to what you think is going on. I have offered you my arguments and elaborated on them, but I do not see any reciprocity here.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jul 21, 2017 10:32:36 GMT
Would you consider an 6 year old or an 8 year old to be "innocent"? I have heard people say things like "children shouldn't be allowed to watch porn as it takes away their innocence" or other crazy things like that. How would your definition of innocence apply there? You still have provided no evidence that a child's supposed "innocence" is attractive to pedophiles. Like I said, I am talking about perceived innocence. I know full well that children aren't as innocent as adults would like to think. And that's precisely the point: Adults think them innocent. And since you asked my opinions, I offered my opinions. Now you're asking for evidence? It's not like you've provided any yourself. How about you address what I said instead, perhaps offer your own opinion as to what you think is going on. I have offered you my arguments and elaborated on them, but I do not see any reciprocity here. All you have done is claimed pedophiles are attracted to percieved innocence. What evidence do you have for this?
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jul 21, 2017 10:58:47 GMT
Like I said, I am talking about perceived innocence. I know full well that children aren't as innocent as adults would like to think. And that's precisely the point: Adults think them innocent. And since you asked my opinions, I offered my opinions. Now you're asking for evidence? It's not like you've provided any yourself. How about you address what I said instead, perhaps offer your own opinion as to what you think is going on. I have offered you my arguments and elaborated on them, but I do not see any reciprocity here. All you have done is claimed pedophiles are attracted to percieved innocence. What evidence do you have for this? Well, that's more than you have done. A debate is a two-way street.
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Post by clusium on Jul 21, 2017 11:00:17 GMT
The Priesthood is easily explained by the fact that the Catholic Church forbids priests to marry, and alter girls are not a thing. So what options do they have but to sexually assault the most convenient targets -- altar boys! What boy scout and wrestling team "big scandals" are you talking about exactly? Validate your claims: What do you mean Altar Girls are not a thing? I was an Altar server about 40 years ago. I was an altar girl when I was a kid too. However, we know that for the most part, the Church specifically chooses boys to serve on the altar, & the reason why is because only men can become priests. The point of being an altar server is to potentially inspire the boy to consider becoming a priest when he grows up.
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Post by kls on Jul 21, 2017 11:02:36 GMT
What do you mean Altar Girls are not a thing? I was an Altar server about 40 years ago. I was an altar girl when I was a kid too. However, we know that for the most part. The Church specifically chooses boys to serve on the altar, & the reason why is because only men can become priests. The point of being an altar server is to potentially inspire the boy to consider becoming a priest when he grows up. All I know is my parish chose whatever kids would volunteer to be servers. If anything it was probably at least 60 40 girls to boys percent wise.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 21, 2017 11:10:55 GMT
No, priestly celibacy does not cause men to become sex offenders!!! Otherwise, you would never hear of married men committing sex crimes. 1) That is a non-sequitur! 2) I didn't say it caused them to be "sex offenders" or commit "sex crimes" (in general). The question related child molestation, and specifically within the Catholic Church. Don't conflate a broad category of crimes with a specific allegation. Actually, I think that line of thinking is insulting to men. Not just priests; not just Catholic men, but, ALL MEN!!;It is saying men cannot control their sexual impulses. No it isn't. I think your line of thinking is retarded! But, you are right about the fact that there are very few girls who serve on the altar or sing in the choir, as to why there are more male victims than female victims of sexually deviant priests. I know.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 21, 2017 11:12:26 GMT
The Priesthood is easily explained by the fact that the Catholic Church forbids priests to marry, and alter girls are not a thing. So what options do they have but to sexually assault the most convenient targets -- altar boys! What boy scout and wrestling team "big scandals" are you talking about exactly? Validate your claims: What do you mean Altar Girls are not a thing? I was an Altar server about 40 years ago. And in your experience, what was the ratio of Altar girls compared to Altar boys? Kind of a rhetorical question, but feel free to answer nonetheless.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jul 21, 2017 11:21:20 GMT
All you have done is claimed pedophiles are attracted to percieved innocence. What evidence do you have for this? Well, that's more than you have done. A debate is a two-way street. I am guessing that you cannot provide evidence then.
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Post by kls on Jul 21, 2017 11:27:22 GMT
What do you mean Altar Girls are not a thing? I was an Altar server about 40 years ago. And in your experience, what was the ratio of Altar girls compared to Altar boys? Kind of a rhetorical question, but feel free to answer nonetheless. When I was a server slightly more girls than boys at the parish I attended (about 60/40 girls to boys percent wise). Can't speak for other places. Where I go now seems to be very few servers. I think they have 2 boys and 1 girl. A deacon helps out most masses.
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Post by Terrapin Station on Jul 21, 2017 12:17:02 GMT
So what would be scientific, empirical support of that? www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080226213448.htmJust one link. But there are countless studies into this phenomenon. Why do you think we find babies cute - babies not even of our own species? There are cases of wild animals (mammals all) which have gone out of their way to protect human children. And human instinct to protect the sweet and innocent among humans and animals alike is something I hope you are familiar with, first hand. Wait, that's specifically about facial structure, and not only does it appear to not attempt any sort of empirical definition of "innocence," but I didn't even notice it using that term. You had specifically made a claim about innocence (namely, that there's something scientific about "appearances exuding innocence"), and that's what I'm asking you about. Are you telling me that "(exuding) innocence" is simply how you're interpreting the material?
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Post by tickingmask on Jul 21, 2017 13:32:41 GMT
And in your experience, what was the ratio of Altar girls compared to Altar boys? Kind of a rhetorical question, but feel free to answer nonetheless. She already did: 60:40 girls to boys, at least in her local church. (Edit: sorry, I missed her direct reply to your question afterwards).
Why is this a rhetorical question? Do you already know that the answer must be 0:100 in order to justify your statement that "Altar Girls are not a thing"? Do you think she was lying about being an altar girl? I think you need to explain your rather bizarre response.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Jul 21, 2017 15:10:23 GMT
Link to the actual stats or just some made up fantasy? You'd almost think Moonunit was an edgelord of edginess who posts garbled contrarian points at random then leaps away to the next pile of paint chips sans response.
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Post by Marv on Jul 21, 2017 16:22:19 GMT
Assuming Man to boy pedophilia is more common...I'm not gonna bother looking it up myself I'll just assume this to be true...
My immediate assumption is that it's more to do with accessibility and a position of authority than an actual strong concern of boy vs girl. I would think that men are in more positions of power with young boys than women. Teachers, Boy Scouts, Priests, Youth coaches, etc. It's the natural way of things for boys to want to be with male father figures rather than women.
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Post by clusium on Jul 21, 2017 16:40:36 GMT
I was an altar girl when I was a kid too. However, we know that for the most part. The Church specifically chooses boys to serve on the altar, & the reason why is because only men can become priests. The point of being an altar server is to potentially inspire the boy to consider becoming a priest when he grows up. All I know is my parish chose whatever kids would volunteer to be servers. If anything it was probably at least 60 40 girls to boys percent wise. Didn't notice my punctuation error, 'till I saw your post with my quote. Thanks for responding to me.
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Post by clusium on Jul 21, 2017 16:47:38 GMT
No, priestly celibacy does not cause men to become sex offenders!!! Otherwise, you would never hear of married men committing sex crimes. 1) That is a non-sequitur! 2) I didn't say it caused them to be "sex offenders" or commit "sex crimes" (in general). The question related child molestation, and specifically within the Catholic Church. Don't conflate a broad category of crimes with a specific allegation. Actually, I think that line of thinking is insulting to men. Not just priests; not just Catholic men, but, ALL MEN!!;It is saying men cannot control their sexual impulses. No it isn't. I think your line of thinking is retarded! But, you are right about the fact that there are very few girls who serve on the altar or sing in the choir, as to why there are more male victims than female victims of sexually deviant priests. I know. You said in your original post that "The Priesthood is explained by the fact that the Catholic Church forbids priests to marry,". And I stating that 'No,' that is not the explanation for pedophiles in the priesthood. They committed their crimes because they had it in them to commit such crimes. The percentage of sexual offenders in the priesthood is no higher or no lower than in the general population as a whole. Of course ZERO OFFENDERS would be far better. Goes without saying!! The point is, there is no link between vows of celibacy & pedophilia.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jul 22, 2017 0:32:10 GMT
I'm reasonably certain that the main issue lays with the availability of the victim to the aggressor.
If you look at the recent and ongoing grooming scandal in the UK, the majority of victims are female. It would appear that whilst pedophiles may have a preference for gender, they have a bigger preference for children.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 22, 2017 2:08:36 GMT
The percentage of sexual offenders in the priesthood is no higher or no lower than in the general population as a whole. Of course ZERO OFFENDERS would be far better. Goes without saying!! The point is, there is no link between vows of celibacy pedophilia I think your opinion is biased, and unsupported by facts. Is Celibacy Linked to Pedophilia?
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