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Post by President Ackbar™ on Aug 9, 2017 19:50:39 GMT
December 8, 2016Star Wars: Episode VIII’s Supreme Leader Snoke: Master Of Puppets! by Jason Ward (editor-in-chief) This article appears to be false. I just read a new one today stating that all appearances of Snoke in TLJ will be motion capture. I saw that too! It's pretty surprising that they could be so far off base. Oh well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:51:02 GMT
False: Sequel Trilogy, The Last Jedi
December 8, 2016Star Wars: Episode VIII’s Supreme Leader Snoke: Master Of Puppets! by Jason Ward (editor-in-chief) For Star Wars: Episode VIII Snoke will not be a character generated in a computer. Instead, he will be a huge puppet around seven to eight feet tall, taking several people to operate and a man inside a suit to make him walk. Snoke may be CGI generated for the holographic communication sequences, but when he has scenes in Episode VIII, next to real flesh-and-blood humans like Kylo Ren, he will be a practical puppet with facial features operated by the crew. In the past many have wondered if Snoke was someone we had seen on screen before. It seems somewhat unlikely considering his size. His arms alone give off the impression he is not exactly human as they are unnaturally long and unsettling. His appearance is identical to what we saw in the holograms but there’s a “real” Snoke in the next installment of the Skywalker saga. We don’t know exactly how much screen time Snoke has in Episode VIII. But we do know the puppet is pretty impressive and appears to be articulated in such a way it seems it is more than an elaborate stand-in. The film may show Kylo Ren, General Hux, and Phasma meeting with Snoke, after the destruction of Starkiller Base. It has been confirmed that the film begins mere moments after Star Wars: The Force Awakens. It would seem the puppet Snoke would be more powerful and interesting to look at than a CGI character, of which audiences are continually critiquing the visuals. I am really excited to see a puppet over seven feet in size that might kick Luke Skywalker’s butt. That’s pretty exciting and I can’t wait to learn more about the innovations and new ground transversed by Rian Johnson and the crew of Star Wars: Episode VIII. This article appears to be false. I just read a new one today stating that all appearances of Snoke in TLJ will be motion capture. From the article: But practical effects have been a priority for the new Star Wars films, so will we see Snoke performed as a real-life puppet? “No, it’s entirely a mo-cap performance,” Johnson says. “[Creature designer] Neal Scanlan built a maquette that we had on set for lighting reference and to give the actors a sense of what it was going to feel like. And then we scanned that and [Industrial Light & Magic] used that in their renderings, but Snoke will be an entirely CG creation.”
Y'all owe Kuatorises an apology. You gave him a lot of shit and as it turns out, he was dead-on.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:52:30 GMT
He's not, though, the puppet is 8 feet tall. Andy Serkis plays him the emotion capture. It's not a puppet. You da man. It is not a puppet.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:54:59 GMT
This article appears to be false. I just read a new one today stating that all appearances of Snoke in TLJ will be motion capture. I saw that too! It's pretty surprising that they could be so far off base. Oh well. Lol, but, there are so many nerds like us nerding out over these new movies that there needs to be stuff almost daily to consume. I think media outlets are rushing to release any old rumor and pass it off as fact. Because there was a physical 8ft piece on set. But Jason Ward and his boys assumed too much apparently.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Aug 9, 2017 20:05:49 GMT
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Post by audiosane on Aug 9, 2017 21:52:12 GMT
<abbr title="Aug 9, 2017 13:00:45 GMT -4" class="o-timestamp time" data-timestamp="1502298045000">Aug 9, 2017 13:00:45 GMT -4</abbr> audiosane sai Yeah, that's pretty much where I was going. LOL. Basically, you're saying Palpatine was a genius, RELATIVELY SPEAKING. Umm, no. Sorry. I'm not going to give him props for being slightly less stupid than the people around him. I mean, come on! His idea of a disguise is throwing on a hood and slightly changing his voice? That's genius? What about Palpatine's convoluted plan to become chancellor? He wanted the Trade Federation to create a crisis on Naboo in order to have Chancellor Valorum removed. Part of that involved forcing the queen to sign a treaty to make the invasion legal. So.... if Queen Amidala was a total wimp and signed the treaty... then no more crisis, and Valorum stays in power. How is this stupid ass plan an act of genius? Okay. This is the Internet. Having a different opinion doesn't make someone a troll. Get used to that concept. F*ck all you want, buddy. Just don't breed, please. What was I thinking? Compared to your genius, all the characters in SW were idiots, lol! And even though you're a genius, I'm going to try to explain the movie to you. It wasn't part of Palpatine's plan in ordering the invasion of Naboo to remove Valorum. The plan on Naboo had more to do with allying with the Trade Federation (both because their voting bloc in the Senate gave them immense political power - which is canon - and to enrich himself off of Naboo's newfound plasma deposits - this part is Legends and I'm not sure if it is still canon) and bolstering their outrage at the new tax that was levied against them by the Senate. The invasion of Naboo was always about putting players like the Trade Federation in a position to leave the Republic. Then. When it is apparent that Amidala won't sign the treaty, that's when he - like the boss that he is - turns lemon into lemonade and uses her defiance to his gain. It is only then that he calls out the possibility of a vote of no confidence. No. I never claimed to be a genius. I'm just some dude on the Internet with an opinion. This is about you praising Palpatine as some great mastermind when he's really not. None of what you're talking about is ever properly explained in TPM because it's a poorly-written film. Plus, Palpatine becoming chancellor never felt like an afterthought, the result of Amidala disrupting his plan by not signing the treaty. This is a guy who keeps wanting to gain more and more power. The Trade Federation felt more like obedient henchmen than equals engaged in a plan that would benefit them in some way. They risked everything invading Naboo - for what? I shouldn't have to read a novel or anything else to understand basic things from the movie. If Lucas was trying to convey Palpatine's genius here, he failed hard. Things worked out for him, not because they made sense but because the script was written that way.
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Post by audiosane on Aug 9, 2017 21:57:23 GMT
I know Palpatine gave a few dramatic speeches in the PT, but he was largely absent from the OT while Vader had played a huge role. That's what I was getting at. Right, but canon sources reveal that Palpatine was anything but behind the scenes as Palpatine. He was only "behind the scenes" as Sidious. You talking PT or OT? Because I'm talking about Palpatine largely being absent from the OT films.
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Post by audiosane on Aug 9, 2017 22:32:41 GMT
I mean, I get what you're saying, but, unfortunately, I watched the Prequels. Palpatine wasn't some great mastermind like Lucas wanted us to believe. He essentially achieved his grand plan because the people around him were compete morons. Qui-Gon should not have insisted that Obi-Wan train Anakin since he knew the boy was troubled and that this would cause conflict with the Jedi Council. The Jedi Council should've taken custody of Anakin because he was too dangerous to go free and banished Obi-Wan from the Jedi Order for threatening to ignore their decision not to have Anakin trained. The Trade Federation should've been disbanded for their actions on Naboo, and Nute Gunray and his goons should've been imprisoned. Once the Jedi Council learned of an unauthorized clone army, they should've destroyed them immediately and investigated and possibly arrested the cloners. The cloning facility definitely should've been shut down as this would be a potential threat to the galaxy. The Jedi Council would not have needed the Force to figure out that Palpatine was acting suspicious and seizing more and more power. They would've kept a close eye on him and eventually realized what the hell was going on before it was too late. The Old Republic and the galaxy would not have been so quick to believe Palpatine that a peaceful organization that had served and protected them for a thousand generations would suddenly turn evil and seize power for... whatever reason, prompting Palpatine to kill them all... without any trial or evidence whatsoever... yes, even the younglings. -_- Now, if you still consider Palpatine to be some kind of genius villain, I humbly ask you not to breed. Let's also break down some of the errors in your argument above. Qui-Gon should not have insisted that Obi-Wan train Anakin since he knew the boy was troubled and that this would cause conflict with the Jedi Council. Uh, but it's always been consistent with Qui-Gon's character that he is a rogue. Capitulating to the council over something he thinks is right is just not his way. It's even discussed in the damn movie: "Do not defy the council, master, not again." For the record, Qui-Gon's behavior cannot be simply decreed stupid. Sometimes it doesn't work out (Anakin), but sometimes it does (Force ghosts). The Jedi Council should've taken custody of Anakin because he was too dangerous to go free and banished Obi-Wan from the Jedi Order for threatening to ignore their decision not to have Anakin trained.
This isn't even factually correct. Per the movie, Obi Wan only says he plans to defy the council after they had already voted to allow him to train Anakin. The Trade Federation should've been disbanded for their actions on Naboo, and Nute Gunray and his goons should've been imprisoned.
On whose authority? Who should've decided that? Once the Jedi Council learned of an unauthorized clone army, they should've destroyed them immediately and investigated and possibly arrested the cloners.
Arrested the cloners for what?!? Doing what the Jedi asked them to do? LOL. The clone army was authorized by the Jedi! The cloning facility definitely should've been shut down as this would be a potential threat to the galaxy.
Again, by whom? The Jedi Council would not have needed the Force to figure out that Palpatine was acting suspicious and seizing more and more power.Uhm, they did have their suspicions. Didn't you watch the damn movie? This is why they asked Anakin to snoop on him. The Old Republic and the galaxy would not have been so quick to believe Palpatine that a peaceful organization that had served and protected them for a thousand generations would suddenly turn evil and seize power for... whatever reason, prompting Palpatine to kill them all... without any trial or evidence whatsoever... yes, even the younglings. -_-
Not everyone in the galaxy liked the Jedi to begin with, even before Order 66. You also seem to conveniently forget that Palpatine had full autonomy in the government at this point. No wonder you think everyone in SW was an idiot: you don't really understand the movies. Qui-Gon may have been a rogue, but he was also a moron. Insisting that Anakin be trained played a major role in the downfall of the Jedi Order. It would be one thing if he hadn't been warned by the Jedi Council, but he was. Anakin was bad news, but Qui-Gonn ignored that. No. That's not what happened in TPM. The Jedi Council rejected Anakin for training. Qui-Gon tried to take him under his wing. That didn't work, but their decision was delayed because political things were going on. At the end, Yoda rejected Obi-Wan taking on Anakin as a teacher. That's when Obi-Wan made his threat. Why would he do it if he was already allowed to train Anakin? That makes no sense. The Old Republic should've punished the Trade Federation. You ignored the part where I said to first launch an investigation. If it's determined that the cloners were part of a conspiracy to create an unauthorized clone army, then arrest them. The clone army wasn't authorized by the Jedi Council, but they were later okay with it because they were written as idiots who should've been highly suspicious. The Old Republic should've shut down the cloning facility once it was discovered at this would pose a threat to galactic safety. Yes, the Jedi Council waited over 10 years to have someone they admitted shouldn't have snooped on Palpatine (MACE: "It's very dangerous, putting them together.") snoop on Palpatine in the 3rd film. Lucas' lazy, poorly-written scripts dumbed down the Jedi Council in order to have Palpatine succeed. Whether people like the Jedi or not is not the point. When an organization has served and protected the people for a long time, people aren't going to believe said organization suddenly turned evil, justifying even the massacre of Jedi children. Palpatine didn't have full autonomy. He was a chancellor who had been granted emergency powers. The Empire didn't come about until the end of ROTS. Even in ANH, the Senate still existed. I don't think everyone in Star Wars is an idiot. I think most of the characters in the poorly-written Prequel films are.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 15:33:21 GMT
Right, but canon sources reveal that Palpatine was anything but behind the scenes as Palpatine. He was only "behind the scenes" as Sidious. You talking PT or OT? Because I'm talking about Palpatine largely being absent from the OT films. I'm talking SW canon timeline: Palpatine as "Palpatine" was in the forefront of everything from before the PT, through the PT, through the time between the PT and the OT and into the OT. He may have only been discussed in ANH, and only appeared as a hologram in TESB, but that's only what's covered in the films. The films only cover short spans of time, but canon sources reveal that all during this time, he was front and center, his visage highly visible, throughout the galaxy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 16:06:09 GMT
. Qui-Gon may have been a rogue, but he was also a moron. Insisting that Anakin be trained played a major role in the downfall of the Jedi Order. It would be one thing if he hadn't been warned by the Jedi Council, but he was. Anakin was bad news, but Qui-Gonn ignored that. No. That's not what happened in TPM. The Jedi Council rejected Anakin for training. Qui-Gon tried to take him under his wing. That didn't work, but their decision was delayed because political things were going on. At the end, Yoda rejected Obi-Wan taking on Anakin as a teacher. That's when Obi-Wan made his threat. Why would he do it if he was already allowed to train Anakin? That makes no sense. The Old Republic should've punished the Trade Federation. You ignored the part where I said to first launch an investigation. If it's determined that the cloners were part of a conspiracy to create an unauthorized clone army, then arrest them. The clone army wasn't authorized by the Jedi Council, but they were later okay with it because they were written as idiots who should've been highly suspicious. The Old Republic should've shut down the cloning facility once it was discovered at this would pose a threat to galactic safety. Yes, the Jedi Council waited over 10 years to have someone they admitted shouldn't have snooped on Palpatine (MACE: "It's very dangerous, putting them together.") snoop on Palpatine in the 3rd film. Lucas' lazy, poorly-written scripts dumbed down the Jedi Council in order to have Palpatine succeed. Whether people like the Jedi or not is not the point. When an organization has served and protected the people for a long time, people aren't going to believe said organization suddenly turned evil, justifying even the massacre of Jedi children. Palpatine didn't have full autonomy. He was a chancellor who had been granted emergency powers. The Empire didn't come about until the end of ROTS. Even in ANH, the Senate still existed. I don't think everyone in Star Wars is an idiot. I think most of the characters in the poorly-written Prequel films are.
Qui-Gon may have been a rogue, but he was also a moron. Insisting that Anakin be trained played a major role in the downfall of the Jedi Order. It would be one thing if he hadn't been warned by the Jedi Council, but he was. Anakin was bad news, but Qui-Gonn ignored that.
That doesn't make him stupid. It's called a personality. Also, you're arm-chair quarterbacking. Also, training Anakin was exactly the right thing to do and ended well, from a certain point of view. For thousands of years the Jedi tried and failed to eliminate the Sith. Anakin actually did it (or so we are left to believe at the end of ROTJ, but "we shall see") and never could have done it if he hadn't been trained by the Jedi.
At the end, Yoda rejected Obi-Wan taking on Anakin as a teacher. That's when Obi-Wan made his threat. Why would he do it if he was already allowed to train Anakin? That makes no sense.
You need to go back and what that scene again. Yoda says that he rejects the idea of Obi-Wan training Anakin, then Obi-Wan makes his threat, then, almost before he can finish his sentence, Yoda says that the council had already voted and agreed that Obi-Wan should train Anakin. So, as I said, Obi-Wan's threat came after the council had already decided he should be Anakin's master, thus, the threat of Obi-Wan was meaningless, thus, your point about Obi-Wan being punished has no grounds.
The Old Republic should've punished the Trade Federation.
Lol, again, how? C'mon, it was in the movies What was the means of their potential punishment? You say "Republic," but what exactly do you mean by that? The Senate? The Chancellor? The Jedi? Who/what body? Yes, the Jedi Council waited over 10 years to have someone they admitted shouldn't have snooped on Palpatine (MACE: "It's very dangerous, putting them together.") snoop on Palpatine in the 3rd film. Lucas' lazy, poorly-written scripts dumbed down the Jedi Council in order to have Palpatine succeed.
False. The Council did not wait 10 years to act on their suspicions. Palpatine did nothing above board until the end of AOTC. The council waited three years to move on their suspicions. And those were merely suspicions with absolutely no Force sensitivity to back them up. They are not vigilantes (during this time). They have a governmental system that is rigid and that they honor. They answer to the Senate in a somewhat autonomous-yet-coexistent partnership. The Jedi couldn't just start flashing their lightsabers around and saying, "Hey, that guy you just democratically elected? We think he's suspicious. Do something or else!!!!" Whether people like the Jedi or not is not the point. When an organization has served and protected the people for a long time, people aren't going to believe said organization suddenly turned evil, justifying even the massacre of Jedi children. Palpatine didn't have full autonomy. He was a chancellor who had been granted emergency powers. The Empire didn't come about until the end of ROTS. Even in ANH, the Senate still existed.
I just don't think you're fully considering the wide-ranging dynamic of what has happened in the galaxy and what is happening during the time of the PT. First, you have to understand that many species/groups in the galaxy don't think the Jedi ever protected the peace. They've always felt the Jedi were bad news. There's a lot of resentment of non-human species (especially) in the Outer Rim against the Jedi for (what they see as) keeping a human and Core-centric Republic in power. An anti-alien Republic that only keeps them down in the dirt. The Jedi enforce negotiations onto these people in favor of the Republic. Second, every slaver, pirate, spicer and smuggler in the galaxy hates the Jedi. Third, because of the events of The Clone Wars, there are a bunch of folks from Separatist worlds that can't stand the Republic/Jedi. Fourth, the Jedi were - indeed - supposed to be peacekeepers. They were certainly not supposed to be generals, leading troops into war. Once the Jedi committed themselves to that unfortunate endeavor, they ruined their reputation. Fifth, Palpatine had wounds, thus evidence. Sixth, people had just suffered through perhaps the most nightmarish war the galaxy ever experienced. People get sick of conflict after a while. They seek any semblance of order, any promise that things will cool off and life can go back to normal. Palpatine assured the masses that his protection was better and more complete than the Jedi. Seventh, and most importantly, the Jedi could not speak for themselves. This is the most persuasive of all the reasons. On a separate note, Palpatine did have autonomy. That's what the emergency powers granted him. During this time, the Senate was merely a facade of government. Palpatine had autonomous authority to make arrests and use deadly force as necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 16:09:12 GMT
What was I thinking? Compared to your genius, all the characters in SW were idiots, lol! And even though you're a genius, I'm going to try to explain the movie to you. It wasn't part of Palpatine's plan in ordering the invasion of Naboo to remove Valorum. The plan on Naboo had more to do with allying with the Trade Federation (both because their voting bloc in the Senate gave them immense political power - which is canon - and to enrich himself off of Naboo's newfound plasma deposits - this part is Legends and I'm not sure if it is still canon) and bolstering their outrage at the new tax that was levied against them by the Senate. The invasion of Naboo was always about putting players like the Trade Federation in a position to leave the Republic. Then. When it is apparent that Amidala won't sign the treaty, that's when he - like the boss that he is - turns lemon into lemonade and uses her defiance to his gain. It is only then that he calls out the possibility of a vote of no confidence. No. I never claimed to be a genius. I'm just some dude on the Internet with an opinion. This is about you praising Palpatine as some great mastermind when he's really not. None of what you're talking about is ever properly explained in TPM because it's a poorly-written film. Plus, Palpatine becoming chancellor never felt like an afterthought, the result of Amidala disrupting his plan by not signing the treaty. This is a guy who keeps wanting to gain more and more power. The Trade Federation felt more like obedient henchmen than equals engaged in a plan that would benefit them in some way. They risked everything invading Naboo - for what? I shouldn't have to read a novel or anything else to understand basic things from the movie. If Lucas was trying to convey Palpatine's genius here, he failed hard. Things worked out for him, not because they made sense but because the script was written that way. You don't. It's all there in the movie. You just assumed something that wasn't true. Palpatine didn't just have one goal. It wasn't his only imperative to become chancelor. He also wanted to start a civil war. The plan with the Federation started out as a plan to lay the seeds for the latter. But, like a boss, he used the situation to his gain for the former when things didn't go according to plan. But go back and watch the movie. Palpatine is adamant that Maul and the Trade Federation get Amidala to sign the treaty.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 0:59:05 GMT
I mean, you're entitled to your opinion. For thousands and thousands of years, the Jedi marshaled the galaxy. For thousands and thousands of years, the Sith tried and failed to conquer the galaxy. For a thousand years, the Republic stood. For a thousand years, Banites couldn't complete the grand plan. Palpatine did all of it in one lifetime, killing off almost all of the Jedi, replacing them as marshal, completing the Sith plan and usurping the Republic. But yeah, he's just a "competent" villain. Meh. I mean, I get what you're saying, but, unfortunately, I watched the Prequels. Palpatine wasn't some great mastermind like Lucas wanted us to believe. He essentially achieved his grand plan because the people around him were compete morons. Qui-Gon should not have insisted that Obi-Wan train Anakin since he knew the boy was troubled and that this would cause conflict with the Jedi Council. The Jedi Council should've taken custody of Anakin because he was too dangerous to go free and banished Obi-Wan from the Jedi Order for threatening to ignore their decision not to have Anakin trained. The Trade Federation should've been disbanded for their actions on Naboo, and Nute Gunray and his goons should've been imprisoned. Once the Jedi Council learned of an unauthorized clone army, they should've destroyed them immediately and investigated and possibly arrested the cloners. The cloning facility definitely should've been shut down as this would be a potential threat to the galaxy. The Jedi Council would not have needed the Force to figure out that Palpatine was acting suspicious and seizing more and more power. They would've kept a close eye on him and eventually realized what the hell was going on before it was too late. The Old Republic and the galaxy would not have been so quick to believe Palpatine that a peaceful organization that had served and protected them for a thousand generations would suddenly turn evil and seize power for... whatever reason, prompting Palpatine to kill them all... without any trial or evidence whatsoever... yes, even the younglings. -_- Now, if you still consider Palpatine to be some kind of genius villain, I humbly ask you not to breed. Yes on the surface the Jedi accepting the Clone army and Kamino might make them look gullible. But look at the conclusions to what you're proposing. Shutting down a facility that carried out business one of your own authorized? At worst this could've started a war with the Jedi or an appeal to the Senate with evidence at hand. Such a thing would've only played into the hands of the Sith. Arresting the cloners accomplishes the same thing. Destroying the clones? The Jedi killing hundreds of thousands of clones not only would've been a monumental task but it would've undoubtedly pushed them towards the Darkside. An investigation? They actually did conduct a low level investigation through ObiWan. The problem is that you needed a more extensive, aggressive investigation. But they ran out of time for that to be prudent. There was already evidence of the Separatists compiling large droid armies for an invasion. With that evidence before the Senate who in government would dare back a proposal to destroy the clones? Who would've supported an investigation that would freeze mobilizing them as a military force if the suspected invasion started? So the scenario is not as stupid as it might first appear to be. Where things went wrong is in the process of taking the Clonetrooper army's authorization and empowerment before the Senate. Jar Jar (fancying himself as a bold hero) put the blind proposal before them to give the Chancellor emergency powers without any structure. What was needed was for someone to quickly fashion out a proposal that included a system of checks and counterbalances on the Chancellor. Perhaps in that sense they were foolish. But even that is not an entirely absurd scenario. There are examples of such absolute emergency powers having been authorized in real life during wartime.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 13:59:17 GMT
Meh. I mean, I get what you're saying, but, unfortunately, I watched the Prequels. Palpatine wasn't some great mastermind like Lucas wanted us to believe. He essentially achieved his grand plan because the people around him were compete morons. Qui-Gon should not have insisted that Obi-Wan train Anakin since he knew the boy was troubled and that this would cause conflict with the Jedi Council. The Jedi Council should've taken custody of Anakin because he was too dangerous to go free and banished Obi-Wan from the Jedi Order for threatening to ignore their decision not to have Anakin trained. The Trade Federation should've been disbanded for their actions on Naboo, and Nute Gunray and his goons should've been imprisoned. Once the Jedi Council learned of an unauthorized clone army, they should've destroyed them immediately and investigated and possibly arrested the cloners. The cloning facility definitely should've been shut down as this would be a potential threat to the galaxy. The Jedi Council would not have needed the Force to figure out that Palpatine was acting suspicious and seizing more and more power. They would've kept a close eye on him and eventually realized what the hell was going on before it was too late. The Old Republic and the galaxy would not have been so quick to believe Palpatine that a peaceful organization that had served and protected them for a thousand generations would suddenly turn evil and seize power for... whatever reason, prompting Palpatine to kill them all... without any trial or evidence whatsoever... yes, even the younglings. -_- Now, if you still consider Palpatine to be some kind of genius villain, I humbly ask you not to breed. Yes on the surface the Jedi accepting the Clone army and Kamino might make them look gullible. But look at the conclusions to what you're proposing. Shutting down a facility that carried out business one of your own authorized? At worst this could've started a war with the Jedi or an appeal to the Senate with evidence at hand. Such a thing would've only played into the hands of the Sith. Arresting the cloners accomplishes the same thing. Destroying the clones? The Jedi killing hundreds of thousands of clones not only would've been a monumental task but it would've undoubtedly pushed them towards the Darkside. An investigation? They actually did conduct a low level investigation through ObiWan. The problem is that you needed a more extensive, aggressive investigation. But they ran out of time for that to be prudent. There was already evidence of the Separatists compiling large droid armies for an invasion. With that evidence before the Senate who in government would dare back a proposal to destroy the clones? Who would've supported an investigation that would freeze mobilizing them as a military force if the suspected invasion started? So the scenario is not as stupid as it might first appear to be. Where things went wrong is in the process of taking the Clonetrooper army's authorization and empowerment before the Senate. Jar Jar (fancying himself as a bold hero) put the blind proposal before them to give the Chancellor emergency powers without any structure. What was needed was for someone to quickly fashion out a proposal that included a system of checks and counterbalances on the Chancellor. Perhaps in that sense they were foolish. But even that is not an entirely absurd scenario. There are examples of such absolute emergency powers having been authorized in real life during wartime. All of this. Plus, let's not forget that the Jedi had some of their own working against them. Right, Mr. Sifo? More importantly, when Dooku supplanted Dyas' identity, it created quite the impenetrable situation in setting up the end result with the clones. Genius move by Palpatine to play that card. And what pushed Dooku over the edge and sealed his fate as a fallen Jedi? Why, the death of his old padawan, Qui Gon. Who gave that order? Palpatine.
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Post by audiosane on Aug 11, 2017 14:14:30 GMT
You talking PT or OT? Because I'm talking about Palpatine largely being absent from the OT films. I'm talking SW canon timeline: Palpatine as "Palpatine" was in the forefront of everything from before the PT, through the PT, through the time between the PT and the OT and into the OT. He may have only been discussed in ANH, and only appeared as a hologram in TESB, but that's only what's covered in the films. The films only cover short spans of time, but canon sources reveal that all during this time, he was front and center, his visage highly visible, throughout the galaxy. All right. That explains why we see him differently during the OT period.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 20:58:00 GMT
Yes on the surface the Jedi accepting the Clone army and Kamino might make them look gullible. But look at the conclusions to what you're proposing. Shutting down a facility that carried out business one of your own authorized? At worst this could've started a war with the Jedi or an appeal to the Senate with evidence at hand. Such a thing would've only played into the hands of the Sith. Arresting the cloners accomplishes the same thing. Destroying the clones? The Jedi killing hundreds of thousands of clones not only would've been a monumental task but it would've undoubtedly pushed them towards the Darkside. An investigation? They actually did conduct a low level investigation through ObiWan. The problem is that you needed a more extensive, aggressive investigation. But they ran out of time for that to be prudent. There was already evidence of the Separatists compiling large droid armies for an invasion. With that evidence before the Senate who in government would dare back a proposal to destroy the clones? Who would've supported an investigation that would freeze mobilizing them as a military force if the suspected invasion started? So the scenario is not as stupid as it might first appear to be. Where things went wrong is in the process of taking the Clonetrooper army's authorization and empowerment before the Senate. Jar Jar (fancying himself as a bold hero) put the blind proposal before them to give the Chancellor emergency powers without any structure. What was needed was for someone to quickly fashion out a proposal that included a system of checks and counterbalances on the Chancellor. Perhaps in that sense they were foolish. But even that is not an entirely absurd scenario. There are examples of such absolute emergency powers having been authorized in real life during wartime. All of this. Plus, let's not forget that the Jedi had some of their own working against them. Right, Mr. Sifo? More importantly, when Dooku supplanted Dyas' identity, it created quite the impenetrable situation in setting up the end result with the clones. Genius move by Palpatine to play that card. And what pushed Dooku over the edge and sealed his fate as a fallen Jedi? Why, the death of his old padawan, Qui Gon. Who gave that order? Palpatine. Exactly right. (All of this).
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Post by darkpast on Sept 6, 2017 22:45:15 GMT
glad the character looks less cgi in the sequel
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Post by Jedan Archer on Sept 7, 2017 11:50:48 GMT
unfortunately, I watched the Prequels. Palpatine wasn't some great mastermind like Lucas wanted us to believe. He essentially achieved his grand plan because the people around him were compete morons.
I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic but at face value this just regurgitates the Plinkett rants. These points are typical "Captain Hindsight" arguments lacking any reasonable understanding of state-of-law principles and the point Lucas made with the PT: Showing a dystopian story of a state, it's institutions and it’s people stumble over home made corruption and limitations. Palps in the end just played with what was there (corruption, democracy fatigue, greed etc) just like demagogues do. This is by far Lucas most relevant and deep writing. Let's begin:
Maybe so in hindsight, but it's perfectly in line with Qui Gin being a rebellious character going HIS own way (as criticized by Obi Wan) even against the Jedi Counsil - that flatly rejected the boy despite the prophesy.
Also, Qui Gon did explicitly state that the boy was NOT dangerous, but only that his future is uncertain. The very reason why he should be trained. Last but not least, there is the very important religious element to it, and Gin believed that the Force made him find Anakin as the chosen one to bring balance (ie destroy the dark side - which just manifested by the Sith returning btw).
Ok, drastic hindsight assessment and you are overstating facts. They just knew he was very Force sensitive and that his future is "clouded", and that it may be more wise to integrate him into the Order (balance prophesy) than to let him go (into slavery? into the arms of the Sith?). Yoda said that he was overruled by the Council allowing Obi Wan to train Anakin. You get the causality false btw: The Counsil allowed Obi to train Anakin before Obi Wan even uttered that he would defy their decision if necessary, kicking him out would be overkill.
Your arg is also beside the point: The core problem was that Anakin was not psychologically suited for the Jedi way because he formed attachments already (with his mother, then with Padme) and was unable to let go of them - the shadow of greed and fear of loss that made him strive for power that ultimately caused his downfall (and of all others he swore to protect and who he loved).
Gunray got arrested, we do not know if he served or why the TF were not disbanded. Gunray still kicking is heavily criticized in Ep2 btw: It's outrageous! After all of those hearings, and the four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is still the Viceroy of the Trade Federation! Ie corruption motive in the PT! Guess who might be responsible for the TF not getting punished more severely? - Reality check: Ever heard the phrase "too big to fail", a sad reality why some entities causing so much damages are still exist and even furthered by their states. Also, accountability principles, if one company/subsidiary in the group causes problems the entire group should be disbanded? Not under the rule of law.
- Most importantly: The TF was just ONE of many associations financing and supporting the Separatist movement. The TF just decided to do so at the end of Ep2. So not disbandoning the TF was not causal anyway.
You mean like kill them...? Very Jedi un-like indeed.
Apart from that, legally they could not do that (in any form): The Senate voted for the army to be established. The Jedi were the police force. Do you think if the government resolvels/decides to create a state army, the police could simply destroy that army because of reasons...? Legally and practically speaking?
Also, in view of the Seperatist threat the Republic needed the army, and the Jedi stated they could not fight a war (in Ep1 and 2 several times). It's the entire point of the Jedi being outmaneuvered by events and having to accept the rule of law and realities (as created by Palps!) even though knowing it's likely leading to their perdition ("a dangerous place this thought will lead us" when discussing a coup).
Sure like the TF, just because they can. And let the Republic effectively be overrun by the seperatist (TF) armies led by the Sith/Dooku. Again, the problem was that Palp's machinations and the senate decision left them no choice.
What's the point here? The Jedi tried to keep a close eye on him by spying on Palps, which finally revealed what is going on... Dictators and demagogues always act that way, you see it in history (Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler) and currently with many leaders (Turkey, Russia, Eastern European Countries, Venezuela etc).
Yeah, you do not need the Force, but what can you do if you comply with the rule of law - a coup? an assassination attack ? - the Jedi tried just that as soon as they found out the awful truth...did not end too well attacking the head of state (see Venezuela). Just what Palps wanted to justify wiping them out (all of them).
On Earth it worked, many times! Ever heard of the Knights' Templar purge or similar historical events? Lucas rooted a lot of it in history.
Probably many did not believe Palps propaganda anyway, but what can you do when in a war under a military leader and just being fed propaganda - some guys later formed the Rebellion.
In the end this is the very point of the PT: Show how a democratic republic and it's institutions falls over their own corruption, discords and limitations while being played by demagogues. Show this mirrored in the life of a young man being corrupted.
Well your arguments did not even touch on Palp's plot in I, II and III (which is brilliantly written), it's rather your personal incredulity that makes you doubt. You are still allowed to breed though...cheers
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Post by Jedan Archer on Sept 7, 2017 16:36:11 GMT
What was I thinking? Compared to your genius, all the characters in SW were idiots, lol! This is about you praising Palpatine as some great mastermind when he's really not. None of what you're talking about is ever properly explained in TPM because it's a poorly-written film. Plus, Palpatine becoming chancellor never felt like an afterthought, the result of Amidala disrupting his plan by not signing the treaty. This is a guy who keeps wanting to gain more and more power. It was not. Lucas states in the commentary that - obviously - everything in TPM (especially the invasion) happens to make Palpatine chancellor. It is also clearly spelled out in the film:
- Senator Palps creates a dramatic annexation conflict on his rich home world, the (blocked) Chancellor Valorum is unable to handle the crisis - Palps pushes the Queen to invoke a "vote of no confidence" against Valorum - who is blocked by Palps corrupt allies [blue vice chancellor guy etc] so to make Valorum seem too corrupt and incompetent to handle the Naboo crisis efficiently (as explicitly shown in the Senate scene). - And then Palps would "use the sympathy bonus" and the Naboo-senator victim card to get elected (including a slimy smirk by Palps when saying that)
It was evidently not planned by Palps that the Queen would escape to the capital (QuiGon: "There is something darker going on here. I feel they plan to destroy you"). She was supposed to sign the treaty ("to save her people from suffering") and the TF then would "ratify the treaty in the Senate" (with corrupt help).
Palps of course had his own plan (ultimately destroying all his allies and pawns): He wanted to use the annexation treaty as evidence to cause moral outrage in the Senate about the corruption and inaction, so to file the vote of no conidence against Valorum himself, making him Chancellor in the end. He would not need teh queen, who was very hesidant to file for teh vote against Valorum (again: long scene showing that)
You do not need to read a book but only the crawl, and watch the movie.
TF's motives were clearly spelled out: "GREEDY" (the leitmotive of the film "greed can be powerful ally"). The film showed them shuddering at their deal with the devil several times. The deal was:
1. Stop the taxation of trade routes (it was the starting point of the conflict) 2. Plus: Their beneficial annexation of rich Naboo would be "ratified by the Senate" to "make the invasion legal" - Palps: "I will MAKE it legal", 3. They were probably promised more perks when Sidious gets to power/in the Sith empire (if you follow the dialogue in Sith).
So, my question is: is the film "poorly-written" or are ppl not used to put puzzles together due to the dumbing down of pop culture. I always assume the latter tbh.
Welcome to human history.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Sept 18, 2017 20:38:31 GMT
Motion Capture My voice dictation software has a mind of its own sometimes. EMOTION Capture! LOL! giggle
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Post by kuatorises on Sept 19, 2017 12:29:50 GMT
My voice dictation software has a mind of its own sometimes. EMOTION Capture! LOL! giggle It's one of the funnier mistakes the software has made.
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