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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 4, 2019 14:55:01 GMT
Oh dear… Beethoven's 9th is the only one I never listen to in full. I never liked it. That finale is a monstrosity. But the man had the good sense of rejecting Napoleon, so I forgive him and of course I cannot blame him for trying to speak against what he saw happen in his life. Hmmm...I was going to suggest Napoleon as a Danaerys parallel in another thread recently. Interesting. Certainly a better match than Stalin. That doesn't quite work. Napoleon rose to power as a problem solver in the wake of a revolution, proceeded to replace the old monarchic structure by a new, similar one of his own, then went to war with all of Europe in defence of the mess he had emerged from. No "breaking the wheel" and definitely no restoration of an old dynasty. Whatever he did on the legislation side, which was significant, was not the reason he had followers. Daenerys, on the other hand, starts wars no one needs for personal benefit and has followers who believe in her making a better world out of it. Napoleon was followed and supported by opportunists and defenders. Daenerys is followed by idealistic fools.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 15:44:08 GMT
Hmmm...I was going to suggest Napoleon as a Danaerys parallel in another thread recently. Interesting. Certainly a better match than Stalin. That doesn't quite work. Napoleon rose to power as a problem solver in the wake of a revolution, proceeded to replace the old monarchic structure by a new, similar one of his own, then went to war with all of Europe in defence of the mess he had emerged from. No "breaking the wheel" and definitely no restoration of an old dynasty. Whatever he did on the legislation side, which was significant, was not the reason he had followers. Daenerys, on the other hand, starts wars no one needs for personal benefit and has followers who believe in her making a better world out of it. Napoleon was followed and supported by opportunists and defenders. Daenerys is followed by idealistic fools. Some quotes to chew on:
“I am the successor, not of Louis XVI, but of Charlemagne.”
“They seek to destroy the Revolution by attacking my person. I will defend it, for I am the revolution.”
It's not perfect but still better than Stalin. As Tyrion pointed out there's a difference between wanting to 'break the wheel' and actually achieving it. Napoleon sent flyers in front of his armies promising liberation, not unlike Danys's slave collars, and there's a whole country called 'Poland' that was restored to the map and believed in him, he freed them from bondage (and marched many into Russia--but nevermind about that...) in a sense--at least many thought so like her Unsullied seem to.
You seem to see Stalinism and the like as 'breaking the wheel' whereas I see it as just adding spikes to it or boots that can stomp on faces in perpetuity. Maybe breaking the wheel amounts to adopting practices like how they choose leaders in the Iron Islands or Night's Watch which you know from season seven is what Tyrion seems to....
Oh...wait.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 4, 2019 15:56:12 GMT
That doesn't quite work. Napoleon rose to power as a problem solver in the wake of a revolution, proceeded to replace the old monarchic structure by a new, similar one of his own, then went to war with all of Europe in defence of the mess he had emerged from. No "breaking the wheel" and definitely no restoration of an old dynasty. Whatever he did on the legislation side, which was significant, was not the reason he had followers. Daenerys, on the other hand, starts wars no one needs for personal benefit and has followers who believe in her making a better world out of it. Napoleon was followed and supported by opportunists and defenders. Daenerys is followed by idealistic fools. Some quotes to chew on:
“I am the successor, not of Louis XVI, but of Charlemagne.”
“They seek to destroy the Revolution by attacking my person. I will defend it, for I am the revolution.”
It's not perfect but still better than Stalin. As Tyrion pointed out there's a difference between wanting to 'break the wheel' and actually achieving it. Napoleon sent flyers in front of his armies promising liberation, not unlike Danys's slave collars, and there's a whole country called 'Poland' that was restored to the map and believed in him, he freed them from bondage (and marched many into Russia--but nevermind about that...) in a sense--at least many thought so like her Unsullied seem to.
You seem to see Stalinism and the like as 'breaking the wheel' whereas I see it as just adding spikes to it or boots that can stomp on faces in perpetuity. Maybe breaking the wheel amounts to adopting practices like how they choose leaders in the Iron Islands or Night's Watch which you know from season seven is what Tyrion seems to....
Oh...wait. It took you some time  Think again of what the lion is and you might see where I'm coming from. One important precision: I am way more critical of Daenerys' followers and fans than of the character itself. I call them scum and fools for buying into her promises or not seeing what she does.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 4, 2019 18:26:51 GMT
Some quotes to chew on:
“I am the successor, not of Louis XVI, but of Charlemagne.”
“They seek to destroy the Revolution by attacking my person. I will defend it, for I am the revolution.”
It's not perfect but still better than Stalin. As Tyrion pointed out there's a difference between wanting to 'break the wheel' and actually achieving it. Napoleon sent flyers in front of his armies promising liberation, not unlike Danys's slave collars, and there's a whole country called 'Poland' that was restored to the map and believed in him, he freed them from bondage (and marched many into Russia--but nevermind about that...) in a sense--at least many thought so like her Unsullied seem to.
You seem to see Stalinism and the like as 'breaking the wheel' whereas I see it as just adding spikes to it or boots that can stomp on faces in perpetuity. Maybe breaking the wheel amounts to adopting practices like how they choose leaders in the Iron Islands or Night's Watch which you know from season seven is what Tyrion seems to....
Oh...wait. It took you some time Think again of what the lion is and you might see where I'm coming from. One important precision: I am way more critical of Daenerys' followers and fans than of the character itself. I call them scum and fools for buying into her promises or not seeing what she does. The lion is an animal, sometimes called 'King of the jungle' and the symbol of some royal/noble families.
I see what Dany does too, just like I see what Cersei does...
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Seto
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Post by Seto on Apr 5, 2019 2:51:23 GMT
Come on Jaime......You never got the recognition for bravery that you wanted. Get it this time. I'll be most interested to see how they handle the Jamie and Brienne romance. In my opinion the show left it far too late for Jamie to leave Cersei, his relationship with Brienne has well and truly cooled off by now. Which is a shame.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 5, 2019 4:56:56 GMT
Come on Jaime......You never got the recognition for bravery that you wanted. Get it this time. I'll be most interested to see how they handle the Jamie and Brienne romance. In my opinion the show left it far too late for Jamie to leave Cersei, his relationship with Brienne has well and truly cooled off by now. Which is a shame. Jaime never left Cersei and his "relationship" with Brienne is rooted in something without any romantic background. As usual, the book wanker understands nothing.
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Post by Aj_June on Apr 5, 2019 5:09:54 GMT
I'll be most interested to see how they handle the Jamie and Brienne romance. In my opinion the show left it far too late for Jamie to leave Cersei, his relationship with Brienne has well and truly cooled off by now. Which is a shame. Jaime never left Cersei and his "relationship" with Brienne is rooted in something without any romantic background. As usual, the book wanker understands nothing. Jaime and Brienne are in love - they just don't realise it, says Game of Thrones star Nikolaj Coster-Waldau
www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/06/13/jaime-and-brienne-are-in-love---they-just-dont-realise-it-says-g/
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Post by Aj_June on Apr 5, 2019 5:11:35 GMT
Come on Jaime......You never got the recognition for bravery that you wanted. Get it this time. I'll be most interested to see how they handle the Jamie and Brienne romance. In my opinion the show left it far too late for Jamie to leave Cersei, his relationship with Brienne has well and truly cooled off by now. Which is a shame. It's an old school type of romance of the kind that never materialises. Duty, ego......I wouldn't expect it to materialise in actual relationship.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 5, 2019 12:29:31 GMT
I think Brienne realizes it, at least judging by her reaction to Cersei's question at Joffrey's wedding, she just doesn't think she's lovable.
Note that NCW doesn't actually say what the headline suggests he said.
“Because the writers set this scene, the subtext is so clear that they're happy to see each other, but they don't know how to recognise that,”
Much like a shy boy thrust next to the object of his affections but is made extremely uncomfortable by that very fact. Definitely in love but not sure they're happy to be put in that situation.
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Post by Aj_June on Apr 5, 2019 12:32:55 GMT
I think Brienne realizes it, at least judging by her reaction to Cersei's question at Joffrey's wedding, she just doesn't think she's lovable.
Note that NCW doesn't actually say what the headline suggests he said.
“Because the writers set this scene, the subtext is so clear that they're happy to see each other, but they don't know how to recognise that,”
Much like a shy boy thrust next to the object of his affections but is made extremely uncomfortable by that very fact. Definitely in love but not sure they're happy to be put in that situation.
Yes, even Gwendoline Christie has indicated the same although not directly. She definitely dismissed speculations of her character being in love with Tormund or even liking him. But had a convoluted answer in regards to Jaime.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 5, 2019 12:58:51 GMT
I think Brienne realizes it, at least judging by her reaction to Cersei's question at Joffrey's wedding, she just doesn't think she's lovable.
Note that NCW doesn't actually say what the headline suggests he said.
“Because the writers set this scene, the subtext is so clear that they're happy to see each other, but they don't know how to recognise that,”
Much like a shy boy thrust next to the object of his affections but is made extremely uncomfortable by that very fact. Definitely in love but not sure they're happy to be put in that situation.
Yes, even Gwendoline Christie has indicated the same although not directly. She definitely dismissed speculations of her character being in love with Tormund or even liking him. But had a convoluted answer in regards to Jaime. Heh, my guess is there's a certain segment of the fanbase who will scream bloody murder if Brienne ends up with Tormund or anyone other than Jaime.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 5, 2019 13:03:31 GMT
I think Brienne realizes it, at least judging by her reaction to Cersei's question at Joffrey's wedding, she just doesn't think she's lovable.
Note that NCW doesn't actually say what the headline suggests he said.
“Because the writers set this scene, the subtext is so clear that they're happy to see each other, but they don't know how to recognise that,”
Much like a shy boy thrust next to the object of his affections but is made extremely uncomfortable by that very fact. Definitely in love but not sure they're happy to be put in that situation.
Yes, even Gwendoline Christie has indicated the same although not directly. She definitely dismissed speculations of her character being in love with Tormund or even liking him. But had a convoluted answer in regards to Jaime. Brienne's feelings towards Jaime are possibly complex. Jaime's, on the other hand are clearly not of romantic nature. She reminds him of the example he once wanted to follow and be. She is more like a conscience to him.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 5, 2019 13:08:43 GMT
Yes, even Gwendoline Christie has indicated the same although not directly. She definitely dismissed speculations of her character being in love with Tormund or even liking him. But had a convoluted answer in regards to Jaime. Heh, my guess is there's a certain segment of the fanbase who will scream bloody murder if Brienne ends up with Tormund or anyone other than Jaime. I have a feeling that Brienne might end up fulfilling Jaime's dying wish and that would be to take Cersei to safety. It would both return the favour Jaime did her and resolve the conversation at Joffrey's wedding. It has a hint of classical drama which no GRRM in the world would ever bring but who knows, maybe D&D could. They are the better writers, when they want to be.
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 5, 2019 13:32:54 GMT
Heh, my guess is there's a certain segment of the fanbase who will scream bloody murder if Brienne ends up with Tormund or anyone other than Jaime. I have a feeling that Brienne might end up fulfilling Jaime's dying wish and that would be to take Cersei to safety. It would both return the favour Jaime did her and resolve the conversation at Joffrey's wedding. It has a hint of classical drama which no GRRM in the world would ever bring but who knows, maybe D&D could. They are the better writers, when they want to be. It would be quite a surprise to many if Cersei survives the series, let alone with Brienne assisting in her salvation. For a little while last season I wondered if they were setting it up so that Cersei would retire to become the Lady of the Rock implying as a theme the 'Game' never ends. Then she went and did something Cersei-like diminishing the chances of that outcome.
BTW, for whatever reason I got the impression somewhere along the line that Jaime and Cersei were that rarest of creations, different-sexed monozygotic (identical) twins, meant perhaps as a homage to "Dune." Is that what you figured?
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Apr 5, 2019 13:50:11 GMT
I have a feeling that Brienne might end up fulfilling Jaime's dying wish and that would be to take Cersei to safety. It would both return the favour Jaime did her and resolve the conversation at Joffrey's wedding. It has a hint of classical drama which no GRRM in the world would ever bring but who knows, maybe D&D could. They are the better writers, when they want to be. It would be quite a surprise to many if Cersei survives the series, … Yes, GoT isn't known for surprising "the many", is it?
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Seto
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Post by Seto on Apr 5, 2019 14:15:14 GMT
I'll be most interested to see how they handle the Jamie and Brienne romance. In my opinion the show left it far too late for Jamie to leave Cersei, his relationship with Brienne has well and truly cooled off by now. Which is a shame. It's an old school type of romance of the kind that never materialises. Duty, ego......I wouldn't expect it to materialise in actual relationship. Well Brienne becomes Jamie's inspiration. His confused about what it means to be a knight, then he meets Brienne, a truer knight than anyone. She's everything he wishes he could be, and from that their romance blooms. At least that's how it is in the book. D&D really struggle to adapt their relationship. Jamie's prolonged obsession with Cersei (Which parallels D&D's own obsession with Lena Heady) greatly ruins his character arc. I agree with you, there isn't enough there for Jamie and Briienne to get together or anything. But hopefully there is some kind of recognition between the two. |
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Marendil
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Post by Marendil on Apr 5, 2019 14:21:52 GMT
It would be quite a surprise to many if Cersei survives the series, … Yes, GoT isn't known for surprising "the many", is it? I made that same point to an old friend of my brother's who came to town recently and had become a massive fan of GoT and was convinced Daenerys was going to assuredly triumph and prosper. 'Just like the honorable northerner was going to sort things out in the cesspool capitol? And then how the idealistc young son was going to avenge his father and set things to right?' 'And Littlefinger was always going to tip-toe through the raindrops?'
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