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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 11, 2017 16:25:16 GMT
I don't see how he was scared. He knew his sister's son would be a pain in his best friend's arse, knew his friend to be impulsively violent and just decided to bury the whole thing so no one would ever find out. His wife's or his "bastard son's" happiness were not relevant. I don't see how he disdained Jaime and Cersei either. He never said so. What he disdained in Jaime was his "serving the Mad King as long as it was safe". In other words, he disdained Jaime for not throwing his life away. Here again, we have the good soldier valuing self-sacrifice, his, Jaime's, his wife's or his "son's". So if he's not a coward, then he is simply a horrible person.
I can accept the compromise.
I think my distaste for him is mostly rooted in his lack of fear, in his lack of value for life, including his own, and his humility.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 11, 2017 18:14:51 GMT
So if he's not a coward, then he is simply a horrible person.
I can accept the compromise.
I think my distaste for him is mostly rooted in his lack of fear, in his lack of value for life, including his own, and his humility. He was very much afraid by the time of his beheading.
It's not his fear of dying that is a concern. Someone can be ok with risking their life because they don't think they are actually in danger. Him being brave for himself is a non-issue although in his case it's overrated.
The reality is that Ned was rarely in danger in the first place and he remained cautious throughout his time in KL. Again, the only thing he did not foresee is Robert's death by boaring.
In any event, the dude is was not humble nor was he honorable.
He lied routinely.
He deceived routinely
He thought less of others routinely
He argued for his view constantly even if it was wrong
One could make the argument that he was honorable, but just to his siblings.
The book gives a ton of clues tat the dude wasn't all there.
I don't even believe Howland Reed is in his corner anymore but basically exiled to his swamp.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 15, 2017 21:36:46 GMT
Aj_June He was not kind. Brave is a relative term and from my view he was a coward He did not protect Cersei's kids. He was going to tell Robert the moment he got back ad was merely telling her to leave and don't look back which made him an idiot. You didn't read the books or see the show. He gave Cersei ample time to take away the kids. Obviously he had to tell Robert the truth. He was kind for the reason that he gave Cesrei time to take the kids away from Robert's wrath. He also pitched in for Dany while no body else in King's council was pitching in. He advised against killing her. 1) It was because of the promise made to his sister. He was protecting life of Jon. You have yourself made a post on RFS board that it is OK to lie to protect someone's life. There is nothing horrible about him. Unless your understanding of horrible is horribly wrong. lol You are a monster, leo. But at least you understand him better than Smithy.
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shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
Posts: 2,527
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 15, 2017 21:53:31 GMT
Where is the option for me to check that states: "Near Stannis level of evil" ?
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 16, 2017 2:55:50 GMT
Obviously he had to tell Robert the truth. He didn't have to. He thought he had to, which made him a remote controlled starter of wars. Lions are no monsters. Dogs are disgusting.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 16, 2017 19:03:27 GMT
Aj_JuneYou and I have different versions of "protect". You seem to think bravery & protection means always running away from Robert's wrath. Regarding Dany...& yet they still tried to kill her and with no warning from him to her. Yep, that's brave. So his sister made him promise to never tell anyone about Jon? If that's the case, are you saying my disdain for Ned should be transferred to Lyanna? Too late, I hate them both equally now. Why can't people simply understand that the twist n the whole hero legend isn't just the notion that Ned was killed, but rather he was a horrible person as well? Rhaegar wasn't the reason for all the turmoil, but rather Lyanna was. She wasn't a damsel in distress, she was the instigator of war and dragged Ned into it. Actually how did she even know Robert had won? Was she alive and talkative for longer than we thought? One of these days, I'll create a thread that goes through all the signs that the Starks were one of the worst families in Westeros.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Sept 17, 2017 0:37:44 GMT
I was just so excited to see Sean bean from LOTR be on this show he is a great actor About his character have mixed feelings he made a lot mistakes already noted by some of you I didn't understand the execution of the night watch young guy He wasn't a deserter in my opinion he was Running to save his life,I think Ned killed him to cover up for the WW existing , he lied a lot Yet he has known as most honorable men in westeros even stannis said so But despite his faults Ned was a good family man , he loved his children and treated Jon like his own He made stupid mistakes one of them trusting cersei to this day I can't believe some people hating Sansa and blaming her For his execution when he was the one who put himself in that situation.
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Post by CynicalDreamer2 on Sept 17, 2017 3:23:00 GMT
I voted 'idiot' because he never ever should have told Cercei he knew the kids weren't Robert's. That's when he truly f'd up.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 17, 2017 4:12:34 GMT
I voted 'idiot' because he never ever should have told Cercei he knew the kids weren't Robert's. That's when he truly f'd up. He knew he was taking a risk. He wasn't surprised to meet resistance as an idiot would have been. This is why I call him reckless instead of stupid. The difference is important in that you can show and explain things to an idiot but a reckless person will keep going and take you down with them. This is what Ned did when he chose war:
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 17, 2017 4:22:43 GMT
Aj_June You and I have different versions of "protect". You seem to think bravery & protection means always running away from Robert's wrath. Regarding Dany...& yet they still tried to kill her and with no warning from him to her. Yep, that's brave. So his sister made him promise to never tell anyone about Jon? If that's the case, are you saying my disdain for Ned should be transferred to Lyanna? Too late, I hate them both equally now. Why can't people simply understand that the twist n the whole hero legend isn't just the notion that Ned was killed, but rather he was a horrible person as well? Rhaegar wasn't the reason for all the turmoil, but rather Lyanna was. She wasn't a damsel in distress, she was the instigator of war and dragged Ned into it. Actually how did she even know Robert had won? Was she alive and talkative for longer than we thought? One of these days, I'll create a thread that goes through all the signs that the Starks were one of the worst families in Westeros. Your logic is just so awesome. And yet they tried to kill her so what? A person did all he could, even resigning from position as hand of king and still others decided to do something wrong and you are holding Lord Stark responsible for that? Just so awesome. That you hold Ned responsible for keeping his promise (with intention of protecting Jon's life) is on you. I voted 'idiot' because he never ever should have told Cercei he knew the kids weren't Robert's. That's when he truly f'd up. I do agree that it was stupid of him to tell Cersei of the truth. He was a kind man and his kindness towards her children didn't do him any good.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 17, 2017 5:02:04 GMT
And yet they tried to kill her so what? A person did all he could, even resigning from position as hand of king and still others decided to do something wrong and you are holding Lord Stark responsible for that? J Resigning was not doing all he could, it was giving up on the matter and saying his name wouldn't be on it. His bringing up the matter again twice later on, that was "doing all he could".
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 17, 2017 12:19:54 GMT
And yet they tried to kill her so what? A person did all he could, even resigning from position as hand of king and still others decided to do something wrong and you are holding Lord Stark responsible for that? J Resigning was not doing all he could, it was giving up on the matter and saying his name wouldn't be on it. His bringing up the matter again twice later on, that was "doing all he could". He didn't only resigned but told Robert it was a lowly thing to kill a girl. Also, if some ordinary person was plotting murder of Targaryen kid then he might have done some thing. The person on top of hierarchy (the authority himself) was doing the plotting.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 17, 2017 12:27:31 GMT
Aj_JuneActually that is not all he could do, but even if it were, disagreeing with his best friend about assassinating someone is not an example of bravery or heroism. And don't make up stuff. I never blamed Ned, there's just no reason to give him brownie points for taking the chicken's way either. However, I do blame Lyanna. I don't know how anyone could not now see that Rhaegar and her messed up the whole kingdom just to boink freely in a fake marriage. Anyway...If that's the best examples you have, you are making Ned even more pathetic than I already viewed him, so thanks for the continued clarification regarding how much of a scumbag he was. There are few people who had as bad a sense of judgement than him and it sucks that he coupled it with hypocrisy to boot.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 17, 2017 12:47:48 GMT
Aj_June Actually that is not all he could do, but even if it were, disagreeing with his best friend about assassinating someone is not an example of bravery or heroism. And don't make up stuff. I never blamed Ned, there's just no reason to give him brownie points for taking the chicken's way either. However, I do blame Lyanna. I don't know how anyone could not now see that Rhaegar and her messed up the whole kingdom just to boink freely in a fake marriage. Anyway...If that's the best examples you have, you are making Ned even more pathetic than I already viewed him, so thanks for the continued clarification regarding how much of a scumbag he was. There are few people who had as bad a sense of judgement than him and it sucks that he coupled it with hypocrisy to boot. Lol...why don't you tell us what he could have done in that case than making up vague statements such as "that's not all he could have done". and I am not making stuff up. You are doing that by calling him coward, persistent liar and hypocrite without giving rational reasons to justify your stance. Further he was the only person who spoke against killing Targaryen Kids. It is lowly of you to not recognise him for that and in fact use that against him.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 17, 2017 12:58:38 GMT
Aj_JuneHe could have headed back north and not participate in a regime that does things that offend him. The only threat was Jaime Lannister would be the Hand which we know Robert wouldn't have done anyway. Instead, he whines, quits in an act of extreme petulance, only to be rehired after and empty threat. All the while a dude he condemned to death is preparing to save Dany from the assassin Robert hired to off Dany. As I said before, I am willing to concede the coward statement since it blends in so well with his other horrible qualities as to be moot and indistinguishable. However, there is no question at all that he is a liar and hypocrite. You providing horrible reasons for why he is these things does not stop him from being these things. The moment R+L=J was verified as the stupid reality it is, people had to switch how they saw Ned. I can't take someone seriously who thinks Ned is the same dude he started as in the first book/season.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 17, 2017 14:02:22 GMT
However, there is no question at all that he is a liar and hypocrite. What makes you think Ned Stark is a hypocrite?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 17, 2017 14:18:07 GMT
However, there is no question at all that he is a liar and hypocrite. What makes you think Ned Stark is a hypocrite? I already answered this since before they canonized the horrible storyline of Jon not being his. Ned is known and rides on his reputation as an honorable man. He's not. He dishonors his family. He kills people for lesser crimes than he has committed. He dismantles that honor in the name of his family that he has spent their whole life lying to. He dishonors his king by removing Joffrey's name as heir. What's weird about this is if he actually cared about who should be on the throne, he should have ensured the safe return of Dany & Viserys in the first place. He wishes to reveal a secret regarding lineage regarding the Lannisters while maintaining the right to withhold it regarding his own family. His decisions have haunted him for years. Guilt does not belong to the innocent.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 17, 2017 14:42:26 GMT
What makes you think Ned Stark is a hypocrite? I already answered this since before they canonized the horrible storyline of Jon not being his. Ned is known and rides on his reputation as an honorable man. He's not. He dishonors his family. He kills people for lesser crimes than he has committed. He dismantles that honor in the name of his family that he has spent their whole life lying to. He dishonors his king by removing Joffrey's name as heir. What's weird about this is if he actually cared about who should be on the throne, he should have ensured the safe return of Dany & Viserys in the first place. He wishes to reveal a secret regarding lineage regarding the Lannisters while maintaining the right to withhold it regarding his own family. His decisions have haunted him for years. Guilt does not belong to the innocent. You're making a mess of things and apparently confusing what others think of him with a fantasised self-judgement the character never uttered. Ned Stark never called himself "the Honourable", others did. Trying to live up to it was not hypocritical on his part, quite the contrary. The Targaryens have no right to the throne, no matter how Jon was born. You're speaking of guilt as if it made him hypocritical when it does the opposite. You don't know what the word means.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 17, 2017 14:49:16 GMT
I already answered this since before they canonized the horrible storyline of Jon not being his. Ned is known and rides on his reputation as an honorable man. He's not. He dishonors his family. He kills people for lesser crimes than he has committed. He dismantles that honor in the name of his family that he has spent their whole life lying to. He dishonors his king by removing Joffrey's name as heir. What's weird about this is if he actually cared about who should be on the throne, he should have ensured the safe return of Dany & Viserys in the first place. He wishes to reveal a secret regarding lineage regarding the Lannisters while maintaining the right to withhold it regarding his own family. His decisions have haunted him for years. Guilt does not belong to the innocent. You're making a mess of things and apparently confusing what others think of him with a fantasised self-judgement the character never uttered. Ned Stark never called himself "the Honourable", others did. Trying to live up to it was not hypocritical on his part, quite the contrary. The Targaryens have no right to the throne, no matter how Jon was born. You're speaking of guilt as if it made him hypocritical when it does the opposite. You don't know what the word means. You're making up an argument I never said. I can only imagine this has some kind of parallel to the equally horirble Lannister clan... He doesn't have to call himself honorable to hold to things people think makes him honorable. You and aj are perfect examples of this. Based on what people think he's done is an indication of what makes him honorable. I am presenting obvious reasons that he has little to no honor except to his sister and we actually don't even know why that is. All I'm saying is the dude hasn't told anyone the truth for 20 years (14 in the books) However, him being a hypocrite is entirely based on what he said vs. what he did. You cannot condemn someone for something you are guilty of without being a hypocrite. You do not live up to something that you intentionally cover up. That doesn't even make sense.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 17, 2017 15:02:01 GMT
You're making a mess of things and apparently confusing what others think of him with a fantasised self-judgement the character never uttered. Ned Stark never called himself "the Honourable", others did. Trying to live up to it was not hypocritical on his part, quite the contrary. The Targaryens have no right to the throne, no matter how Jon was born. You're speaking of guilt as if it made him hypocritical when it does the opposite. You don't know what the word means. You're making up an argument I never said. I am presenting obvious reasons that he has little to no honor except to his sister and we actually don't even know why that is. You cannot condemn someone for something you are guilty of without being a hypocrite. Trying to clear up your mess. I asked what makes him a hypocrite and received no clear answer. His having no honour wouldn't make him a hypocrite. Who did he condemn for something he is guilty of?
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