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Post by Aj_June on Sept 24, 2017 12:51:08 GMT
Without reading through 5 pages...I'll just say I'm a fan of Ned's, but he made some very poor choices. His stubbornness in regard to what he perceived as 'right' is probably his greatest shortcoming. He was terrible at taking into consideration the consequences of his actions beyond those that were immediately affected. He spent so much time in the somewhat black and white world of the North that he was very much a fish out of water in the politic heavy, scheming world that was Kings Landing. Personally and morally you can see that Ned is a good person. He's an endearing father to his children and serves as a mentor and loved figure for almost every point of view character in the first few books. It's those reasons I like Ned despite his lack of ability to adapt in this world of grey. Cool. Thanks for chiming in with your views.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 25, 2017 13:10:48 GMT
@reyhauka I acknowledged the error, had tno reason to add value to the rest of your dialogue, and you are the one that won't let it go. That makes it a personal issue for you to deal with. You gave me a reason why he was the same as the Lannisters, you just didn't know it.Besides I responded to what you said anyway since I'm a nice guy. But please continue wasting time by making this about how I offend you with my presence. If you could explain this statement, you would have. Did you misspell my name in the hopes that I wouldn't see this, or do you have as much trouble typing as you do reading?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 25, 2017 13:25:46 GMT
Stannis is written as the antithesis of individual freedom. He is the extreme Ned. In the show, he will tell Shireen, just before sacrificing her, "when a man knows what he is, the choice is no choice at all" and feel comfort in it. Viewers are mostly feeling fools. Renly was smiling at them so they liked him. The show made him look tolerant so they loved him. Stannis avoided a battle in the way he killed him. It was good. Uh...what? Ned was a fool. He was a fool who loved his family and that's admirable, but a fool nonetheless. He wasn't privy to the game at all. I just don't see the comparison. The only thing they may have in common is their sense of justice/honor, but even then, they're quite different. Stannis was able to separate a person's good acts from the bad (as if completely different acts). i.e. He punished Davos for smuggling by taking his fingers, but rewarded him for his courage in saving Baratheon men at Storm's End. As Stannis said, "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good." On the other hand, Ned is never able to distinguish between the two once he had "marked a man" as beneath him. i.e. Right at the end of Robert's rebellion when Ned enters the throne room to find Jaime sitting there. All he could do is call Jaime, "Kingslayer." He never listened to what Jaime had to say about it. Stannis would have listened, just like he allowed Davos the opportunity to explain why he snuck Gendry away from Dragstone. Stannis never lies in the series. Never. Even when Brienne comes to him at the end, he doesn't dispute that he killed Renly. Ned is willing to forgo honor/honesty, when it comes to the safety of his family. i.e. Lying to secure the safety of Jon, lying for Sansa's life, lying that Cat took Tyrion prisoner on his orders, etc. Ned was a believer in the Old Gods. Stannis was a skeptic at best and denied the Old Gods. Ned was close with his family. Stannis was a cold man and could never bond with anyone. i.e. the Cressen chapter from the books. Ned was showered with praise from the other characters. i.e. Warden of the North, Hand of the King, Lord of Winterfell, etc. Stannis wasn't ever given any recognition for his courage or lineage from anyone (especially not from Robert) because no one loved or liked him. Ned wasn't willing to do what was necessary (like striking King's Landing while the castle slept to get rid of the Lannisters), while Stannis used blood magic to eradicate a usurper who would have gotten a lot of men killed for a false cause. I just don't see the comparison between Stannis and Ned at all. They even grew up different in parts of Westeros, with Ned in the North at Winterfell and Stannis in the South at Storm's End. I suppose it can be said that they're both tested men in battle, but so were a lot of characters in the series. I wouldn't say that makes them extremes of each other. Hmm, again I enjoy your perspective even if I don't always agree with it. I don't know if Jaime ever tried to tell Ned the whole story of what happened in the throne room so we'll never know if that would've changed his opinion. What we do know is Ned entered the throne room to find Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne-- and considering the war that was just fought with the Kingdom up for grabs, I'm not sure what he was supposed to think in that situation. If Jaime only tells him half the story, how else is Ned to judge the man or his actions? I don't think Ned cuts Davos's fingers off had he been in Stannis's shoes.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2017 13:28:01 GMT
@reyhauka I acknowledged the error, had tno reason to add value to the rest of your dialogue, and you are the one that won't let it go. That makes it a personal issue for you to deal with. You gave me a reason why he was the same as the Lannisters, you just didn't know it.Besides I responded to what you said anyway since I'm a nice guy. But please continue wasting time by making this about how I offend you with my presence. If you could explain this statement, you would have. Did you misspell my name in the hopes that I wouldn't see this, or do you have as much trouble typing as you do reading? Yes, because the one things that strikes fear into my very bones, it a discussion with you...
The reason I misspelled your name is because I have to spell it and I am a horrible speller.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 25, 2017 13:44:15 GMT
If you could explain this statement, you would have. Did you misspell my name in the hopes that I wouldn't see this, or do you have as much trouble typing as you do reading? Yes, because the one things that strikes fear into my very bones, it a discussion with you...
The reason I misspelled your name is because I have to spell it and I am a horrible speller.
How many times will you reply without explaining your comment about Ned being like the Lannisters? How long does it take you to make this stuff up? I don't think you're afraid of me, I think you know your argument makes no sense but you feel compelled to get the last word anyway. Are you going to explain your comments at all? You're also horrible with logic but it doesn't stop you from posting on this board, I have to give you credit there.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 25, 2017 14:01:08 GMT
I don't know if Jaime ever tried to tell Ned the whole story of what happened in the throne room so we'll never know if that would've changed his opinion. Jaime's impression of Ned is faulty. He believes he was being judged for killing the king but when they met again in the throne room in S1E03, Ned said "you just stood there and watched" then "you served him well when serving was safe", which can be understood the opposite way: as a reproach for not having betrayed the mad man earlier. Jaime appears to be nurturing his own fears of what others might be thinking of him. His father will later tell him he cares too much about what others say. What Jaime says Ned thought is just what Jaime feels about how Ned might have felt. It tells about Jaime, not about Ned.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 25, 2017 14:18:53 GMT
I don't know if Jaime ever tried to tell Ned the whole story of what happened in the throne room so we'll never know if that would've changed his opinion. Jaime's impression of Ned is faulty. He believes he was being judged for killing the king but when they met again in the throne room in S1E03, Ned said "you just stood there and watched" then "you served him well when serving was safe", which can be understood the opposite way: as a reproach for not having betrayed the mad man earlier. Jaime appears to be nurturing his own fears of what others might be thinking of him. His father will later tell him he cares too much about what others say. What Jaime says Ned thought is just what Jaime feels about how Ned might have felt. It tells about Jaime, not about Ned. Great point. I believe Ned has a better understanding of the duality of man and the necessity of occasionally bending the rules than Stannis does. Somehow I doubt Ned punished Howland Reed for fighting dishonorably when he saved Ned's life at the Tower of Joy. Stannis would have killed Cersei on principle; Ned's initial reaction was to let her run off with her children. Traitorous as her actions were, she was still a mother willing to protect her children. Of course Ned underestimated the depths of her treachery and immorality at that initial meeting, but that isn't why he ended up losing his head. Ned made clever attempts to manipulate the succession and tried to forge alliances while those around him schemed for themselves. So perhaps he was wrong on that call, but it still shows how his compassion for people (who are not his family) supersedes his adherence to the laws of the kingdom.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2017 14:49:27 GMT
Yes, because the one things that strikes fear into my very bones, it a discussion with you...
The reason I misspelled your name is because I have to spell it and I am a horrible speller.
How many times will you reply without explaining your comment about Ned being like the Lannisters? How long does it take you to make this stuff up? I don't think you're afraid of me, I think you know your argument makes no sense but you feel compelled to get the last word anyway. Are you going to explain your comments at all? You're also horrible with logic but it doesn't stop you from posting on this board, I have to give you credit there. I didn't see where you were asking for an explanation. I only saw a fake explanation for why I didn't.
I have already explained my view of Ned.
Let's assume that you don't agree with it.
If you have something else to add then fine, but it seems like you are primarily happy with just insulting me.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 25, 2017 15:30:43 GMT
How many times will you reply without explaining your comment about Ned being like the Lannisters? How long does it take you to make this stuff up? I don't think you're afraid of me, I think you know your argument makes no sense but you feel compelled to get the last word anyway. Are you going to explain your comments at all? You're also horrible with logic but it doesn't stop you from posting on this board, I have to give you credit there. I didn't see where you were asking for an explanation. I only saw a fake explanation for why I didn't.
I have already explained my view of Ned.
Let's assume that you don't agree with it.
If you have something else to add then fine, but it seems like you are primarily happy with just insulting me.
You said: And I've asked for an explanation as to how, multiple times now. Still waiting.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 25, 2017 16:56:39 GMT
Hmm, again I enjoy your perspective even if I don't always agree with it. I don't know if Jaime ever tried to tell Ned the whole story of what happened in the throne room so we'll never know if that would've changed his opinion. What we do know is Ned entered the throne room to find Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne-- and considering the war that was just fought with the Kingdom up for grabs, I'm not sure what he was supposed to think in that situation. If Jaime only tells him half the story, how else is Ned to judge the man or his actions? I don't think Ned cuts Davos's fingers off had he been in Stannis's shoes. Thanks. No, I don't think so either. Ned was very much a man who believed, "The ends justifies the means." i.e. Him supporting Robert's rebellion. In the case of Davos, I think Ned would have pardoned Davos for showing bravery. Stannis looked at each act separately: one act being Davos' bravery in getting food to Storm's End, but being a smuggler was illegal so he had to be punished for that.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2017 16:57:38 GMT
I didn't see where you were asking for an explanation. I only saw a fake explanation for why I didn't.
I have already explained my view of Ned.
Let's assume that you don't agree with it.
If you have something else to add then fine, but it seems like you are primarily happy with just insulting me.
You said: And I've asked for an explanation as to how, multiple times now. Still waiting. I've answered repeatedly and way before this thread was even started. You just have excuses for my reasons that are tied directly to you liking the guy.
I used to like him too even when I thought the honor statement on him was shaky.
Within this story, Ned has routinely betrayed people on the basis of a fake justification and it has caused a great deal of heartache for more than just himself.
Although he does not want prestige or power, he does want things to be his way and according to his solutions regardless of the honorable course.
He has done this to both his own family and Robert. His fraud perpetrated on Robert negates the "good" he did in supporting Stannis' claim.
Like the Lannisters, he will put his family first...& by family I mean his siblings first and then his wife and kids and that course of action means that honor is not the primary thing, but rather loyalty to his kin...Just like the Lannisters.
Let the insults commence!
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 25, 2017 17:04:18 GMT
You said: And I've asked for an explanation as to how, multiple times now. Still waiting. I've answered repeatedly and way before this thread was even started. You just have excuses for my reasons that are tied directly to you liking the guy.
I used to like him too even when I thought the honor statement on him was shaky.
Within this story, Ned has routinely betrayed people on the basis of a fake justification and it has caused a great deal of heartache for more than just himself.
Although he does not want prestige or power, he does want things to be his way and according to his solutions regardless of the honorable course.
He has done this to both his own family and Robert. His fraud perpetrated on Robert negates the "good" he did in supporting Stannis' claim.
Like the Lannisters, he will put his family first...& by family I mean his siblings first and then his wife and kids and that course of action means that honor is not the primary thing, but rather loyalty to his kin...Just like the Lannisters.
Let the insults commence!
"He will put his family first." It would've been easier (and safer for his family) to have Cersei and her children killed, but he decides not to. Are they related? Your problem is that you think anyone with the ability to analyze the story is a 'fanboy' (a word you used on me earlier in the thread). Get over yourself and maybe you'd be able to follow the story a little better.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 25, 2017 19:01:20 GMT
"He will put his family first." It would've been easier (and safer for his family) to have Cersei and her children killed, but he decides not to. Are they related? You didn't ask me but I can answer that. No, Cersei and Ned aren't related. Ned doesn't have them killed because he doesn't want to, "Kill frightened children." He says something similar during the scene between him and Renly. Nor does he want, "Their blood on his hands." Ned says something along that lines during his final confrontation with Cersei before they all are in the throne room together. Of course, this all comes back to bite him in the end.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 25, 2017 19:23:49 GMT
"He will put his family first." It would've been easier (and safer for his family) to have Cersei and her children killed, but he decides not to. Are they related? You didn't ask me but I can answer that. No, Cersei and Ned aren't related. Ned doesn't have them killed because he doesn't want to, "Kill frightened children." He says something similar during the scene between him and Renly. Nor does he want, "Their blood on his hands." Ned says something along that lines during his final confrontation with Cersei before they all are in the throne room together. Of course, this all comes back to bite him in the end. Thanks, but that's the point I was making. Ned has a sense of morality that goes beyond familial ties or even royal decree. He doesn't just take action to protect his own family as the other poster was suggesting. He also argued with Robert over the potential assassination of Dany, and Ned had no stake in her life whatsoever.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 25, 2017 19:34:22 GMT
Thanks, but that's the point I was making. Ned has a sense of morality that goes beyond familial ties or even royal decree. He doesn't just take action to protect his own family as the other poster was suggesting. He also argued with Robert over the potential assassination of Dany, and Ned had no stake in her life whatsoever. Ah. I see. I confess, I didn't read the whole conversation between you two. I noticed your question and thought it to be genuine. Never mind then.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2017 21:55:21 GMT
I've answered repeatedly and way before this thread was even started. You just have excuses for my reasons that are tied directly to you liking the guy.
I used to like him too even when I thought the honor statement on him was shaky.
Within this story, Ned has routinely betrayed people on the basis of a fake justification and it has caused a great deal of heartache for more than just himself.
Although he does not want prestige or power, he does want things to be his way and according to his solutions regardless of the honorable course.
He has done this to both his own family and Robert. His fraud perpetrated on Robert negates the "good" he did in supporting Stannis' claim.
Like the Lannisters, he will put his family first...& by family I mean his siblings first and then his wife and kids and that course of action means that honor is not the primary thing, but rather loyalty to his kin...Just like the Lannisters.
Let the insults commence!
"He will put his family first." It would've been easier (and safer for his family) to have Cersei and her children killed, but he decides not to. Are they related? Your problem is that you think anyone with the ability to analyze the story is a 'fanboy' (a word you used on me earlier in the thread). Get over yourself and maybe you'd be able to follow the story a little better. For the millionth time, Ned was fine with Cercei and the kids dying if they didn't follow his advice.
He was going to tell Robert immediately after his hunt.
What do you think Stannis was going to do to them anyway if Ned succeeded in taking the throne for Joffrey?
He was only giving her a head start to better deal with Robert's rage which is not the same thing as mercy.
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Post by Marv on Sept 25, 2017 23:36:53 GMT
Ned had a lot of naivety regarding others, especially people he loved at one time or another.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 26, 2017 17:21:38 GMT
"He will put his family first." It would've been easier (and safer for his family) to have Cersei and her children killed, but he decides not to. Are they related? Your problem is that you think anyone with the ability to analyze the story is a 'fanboy' (a word you used on me earlier in the thread). Get over yourself and maybe you'd be able to follow the story a little better. For the millionth time, Ned was fine with Cercei and the kids dying if they didn't follow his advice.
He was going to tell Robert immediately after his hunt.
What do you think Stannis was going to do to them anyway if Ned succeeded in taking the throne for Joffrey?
He was only giving her a head start to better deal with Robert's rage which is not the same thing as mercy.
For the millionth time, he gave them an opportunity to escape when he had absolutely no reason to. He argued against assassinating Dany when she meant nothing to him.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 26, 2017 18:42:56 GMT
An opportunity is not salvation.
He did not stop the assassination of Dany
He didn't stop Robert from trying to kill her as a baby.
All you are discussing is a dude with an opinion. We've all got opinions and that doesn't make us anything special.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 26, 2017 19:48:48 GMT
For the millionth time, Ned was fine with Cercei and the kids dying if they didn't follow his advice.
He was going to tell Robert immediately after his hunt.
What do you think Stannis was going to do to them anyway if Ned succeeded in taking the throne for Joffrey?
He was only giving her a head start to better deal with Robert's rage which is not the same thing as mercy.
Yes, Stannis would definitely have them executed. He would later go on to throw Joffrey's name into the fire. He wanted them dead. They stole the throne from him.
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