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Post by azzajones on Sept 12, 2017 23:16:37 GMT
Something that occurred to me recently, in the MCU the number of heroes with a secret identity I can count on one hand. Now, I don't read comics, so I don't know this is also the case in the comics and that it's DC that's big on secret identities?
I found it quite strange watching The Defenders where Matt was Daredevil but the rest were themselves.
This does make me think is the concept of a secret identity an antiquated notion? Since the heroes of the MCU are able to be themselves without much difficulty
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 13, 2017 0:12:24 GMT
Something that occurred to me recently, in the MCU the number of heroes with a secret identity I can count on one hand. Now, I don't read comics, so I don't know this is also the case in the comics and that it's DC that's big on secret identities? I found it quite strange watching The Defenders where Matt was Daredevil but the rest were themselves. This does make me think is the concept of a secret identity an antiquated notion? Since the heroes of the MCU are able to be themselves without much difficulty They only need secret identities if it makes sense in the context of the story. Matt chooses a secret identity because he feels it protects those around him. Almost nobody else has felt the need for that sort of protection. I think the concept that everybody needs a secret identity is an antiquated notion, but it's still a very relevant concept for certain characters.
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Post by politicidal on Sept 13, 2017 0:25:05 GMT
I think the concept that everybody needs a secret identity is an antiquated notion, but it's still a very relevant concept for certain characters. Particularly those characters that don't have superpowers. I mean, I like Hawkeye but that scene in CIVIL WAR with VISION proved his limitations. Imagine if his family was being threatened by a similar foe and he couldn't stop it. |
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Sept 13, 2017 0:32:47 GMT
I think the concept that everybody needs a secret identity is an antiquated notion, but it's still a very relevant concept for certain characters. Particularly those characters that don't have superpowers. I mean, I like Hawkeye but that scene in CIVIL WAR with VISION proved his limitations. Imagine if his family was being threatened by a similar foe and he couldn't stop it. It would seem he would benefit from one, but let's not forget he was just a spy, not a masked superhero, and he wasn't known to the public until widow dumped those files in TWS. Also he grew up in world without superheroes so this sort of fighting omega level beings was never really a thing for him. He was just trying to get wanda to fight for herself anyway. He knew vision wouldn't hurt him. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 13, 2017 1:53:51 GMT
That's why Civil War was such an awful movie.
Zemo: "The Avengers killed my family. Since I know all of their secret identities, I can easily get my revenge by killing all their families and loved ones. But I'm not going to do the logical thing. Instead, I'm going to come up with the dumbest and most convoluted scheme in comic-book history in which I find the only copy of a videotape from 25 years ago of Bucky killing the Starks on a remote road in the middle of nowhere, where a random camera just happened to record the murders and then instead of uploading the video to the Internet for the whole world to see that Bucky is a cold-blooded double-murderer, I'm going to wait for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to all show up a the same remote base in Siberia at the same time (which I know will happen because the script writers wrote that in the script) so they can all watch the videotape together." |
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Sept 13, 2017 3:04:48 GMT
That's why Civil War was such an awful movie.
Zemo: "The Avengers killed my family. Since I know all of their secret identities, I can easily get my revenge by killing all their families and loved ones. But I'm not going to do the logical thing. Instead, I'm going to come up with the dumbest and most convoluted scheme in comic-book history in which I find the only copy of a videotape from 25 years ago of Bucky killing the Starks on a remote road in the middle of nowhere, where a random camera just happened to record the murders and then instead of uploading the video to the Internet for the whole world to see that Bucky is a cold-blooded double-murderer, I'm going to wait for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to all show up a the same remote base in Siberia at the same time (which I know will happen because the script writers wrote that in the script) so they can all watch the videotape together." Seriously dude, If Civil War was the exact same movie, just replace Marvel Studios with Warner Bros and DC, you would call it one of the greatest comic book movies of all time. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 4:23:04 GMT
That's why Civil War was such an awful movie.
Zemo: "The Avengers killed my family. Since I know all of their secret identities, I can easily get my revenge by killing all their families and loved ones. But I'm not going to do the logical thing. Instead, I'm going to come up with the dumbest and most convoluted scheme in comic-book history in which I find the only copy of a videotape from 25 years ago of Bucky killing the Starks on a remote road in the middle of nowhere, where a random camera just happened to record the murders and then instead of uploading the video to the Internet for the whole world to see that Bucky is a cold-blooded double-murderer, I'm going to wait for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to all show up a the same remote base in Siberia at the same time (which I know will happen because the script writers wrote that in the script) so they can all watch the videotape together." Seriously dude, If Civil War was the exact same movie, just replace Marvel Studios with Warner Bros and DC, you would call it one of the greatest comic book movies of all time. According to honoust trailers CW was the exact same movie as BvS. Only a good excecution. |
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Post by dazz on Sept 13, 2017 11:21:50 GMT
That's why Civil War was such an awful movie.
Zemo: "The Avengers killed my family. Since I know all of their secret identities, I can easily get my revenge by killing all their families and loved ones. But I'm not going to do the logical thing. Instead, I'm going to come up with the dumbest and most convoluted scheme in comic-book history in which I find the only copy of a videotape from 25 years ago of Bucky killing the Starks on a remote road in the middle of nowhere, where a random camera just happened to record the murders and then instead of uploading the video to the Internet for the whole world to see that Bucky is a cold-blooded double-murderer, I'm going to wait for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to all show up a the same remote base in Siberia at the same time (which I know will happen because the script writers wrote that in the script) so they can all watch the videotape together." Have to admit you have a point here, as much as I love CA:CW that plot is a bit silly.
I think the lack of secret identities works for the MCU, as all the heroes either don't have loved ones to protect, their loved ones are capable of protecting themselves or they already have protection, the only exceptions to this are Spider-Man, Ant-Man & Daredevil who each have no added protection for their loved ones but then that explains the secret identities.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Sept 13, 2017 14:29:08 GMT
I actually like secret identities and I think the super hero genre should use them most of the time. Primarily because it can be a primary weakness for a super hero. Back in the day Superman's need to keep his identity a secret would sometimes cause the villain to get away. But that's a good thing because Superman can so easily beat virtually any villain (unless you create god like villains and that gets old) that he needs some kind of handicap to make it exciting. I think sometimes not having a secret identity is just lazy writing because it is hard to write a story and maintain a secret identity.
Having said all that, The Fantastic Four, which were the first Marvel heroes of the modern age never had secret identities. So sometimes it works. In the real world spies like Hawkeye actually do have secret identities. So it is a pretty complicated issue.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 13, 2017 14:29:10 GMT
That's why Civil War was such an awful movie.
Zemo: "The Avengers killed my family. Since I know all of their secret identities, I can easily get my revenge by killing all their families and loved ones. But I'm not going to do the logical thing. Instead, I'm going to come up with the dumbest and most convoluted scheme in comic-book history in which I find the only copy of a videotape from 25 years ago of Bucky killing the Starks on a remote road in the middle of nowhere, where a random camera just happened to record the murders and then instead of uploading the video to the Internet for the whole world to see that Bucky is a cold-blooded double-murderer, I'm going to wait for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to all show up a the same remote base in Siberia at the same time (which I know will happen because the script writers wrote that in the script) so they can all watch the videotape together." Going after their families wouldn't have done a damn thing, he wanted to destroy them from within. Giving them an external enemy would've done nothing. And he wasn't even sure until the very end that there was a tape to use, which was explained in the film. Honestly, stop asking to be spoonfed. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 13, 2017 14:43:26 GMT
That's why Civil War was such an awful movie.
Zemo: "The Avengers killed my family. Since I know all of their secret identities, I can easily get my revenge by killing all their families and loved ones. But I'm not going to do the logical thing. Instead, I'm going to come up with the dumbest and most convoluted scheme in comic-book history in which I find the only copy of a videotape from 25 years ago of Bucky killing the Starks on a remote road in the middle of nowhere, where a random camera just happened to record the murders and then instead of uploading the video to the Internet for the whole world to see that Bucky is a cold-blooded double-murderer, I'm going to wait for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to all show up a the same remote base in Siberia at the same time (which I know will happen because the script writers wrote that in the script) so they can all watch the videotape together." Have to admit you have a point here, as much as I love CA:CW that plot is a bit silly.
I think the lack of secret identities works for the MCU, as all the heroes either don't have loved ones to protect, their loved ones are capable of protecting themselves or they already have protection, the only exceptions to this are Spider-Man, Ant-Man & Daredevil who each have no added protection for their loved ones but then that explains the secret identities.
What about Hawkeye? He has a girlfriend and 2 little kids. And Iron Man doesn't care about protecting Pepper Potts or Happy Hogan? Probably not, since Tony Stark went on TV to announce his home address to the whole world so the bad guy can launch a missile at his house but didn't tell Pepper "Honey, I just announced my home address on TV to the whole world and told the bad guys to come at me so they're probably going to launch an attack on the house. Since you don't have any superpowers to defend yourself, you best stay away from the house for awhile so that you don't get in the line of fire when the bad guys attack."
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 13, 2017 14:47:26 GMT
That's why Civil War was such an awful movie.
Zemo: "The Avengers killed my family. Since I know all of their secret identities, I can easily get my revenge by killing all their families and loved ones. But I'm not going to do the logical thing. Instead, I'm going to come up with the dumbest and most convoluted scheme in comic-book history in which I find the only copy of a videotape from 25 years ago of Bucky killing the Starks on a remote road in the middle of nowhere, where a random camera just happened to record the murders and then instead of uploading the video to the Internet for the whole world to see that Bucky is a cold-blooded double-murderer, I'm going to wait for Cap, Bucky, and Iron Man to all show up a the same remote base in Siberia at the same time (which I know will happen because the script writers wrote that in the script) so they can all watch the videotape together." Going after their families wouldn't have done a damn thing So you're saying that Zemo wouldn't get any satisfaction at all from killing Pepper Potts or Hawkeye's girlfriend and kids? |
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Sept 13, 2017 14:52:42 GMT
Have to admit you have a point here, as much as I love CA:CW that plot is a bit silly.
I think the lack of secret identities works for the MCU, as all the heroes either don't have loved ones to protect, their loved ones are capable of protecting themselves or they already have protection, the only exceptions to this are Spider-Man, Ant-Man & Daredevil who each have no added protection for their loved ones but then that explains the secret identities.
What about Hawkeye? He has a girlfriend and 2 little kids. And Iron Man doesn't care about protecting Pepper Potts or Happy Hogan? Probably not, since Tony Stark went on TV to announce his home address to the whole world so the bad guy can launch a missile at his house but didn't tell Pepper "Honey, I just announced my home address on TV to the whole world and told the bad guys to come at me so they're probably going to launch an attack on the house. Since you don't have any superpowers to defend yourself, you best stay away from the house for awhile so that you don't get in the line of fire when the bad guys attack."
Tony was devastated when Happy was severly injured on the attack of the Chinese Theater, and when the terrorists did attack his house, who does he give his Iron Man suit to? Pepper, because he would rather have himself killed over a mistake he made rather than her paying the price. So clearly, he does care for Happy and Pepper. It's like saying Superman doesn't care about human life because he was endangering the lives so many people which led to many casualties. Oh wait... |
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 13, 2017 14:57:27 GMT
What about Hawkeye? He has a girlfriend and 2 little kids. And Iron Man doesn't care about protecting Pepper Potts or Happy Hogan? Probably not, since Tony Stark went on TV to announce his home address to the whole world so the bad guy can launch a missile at his house but didn't tell Pepper "Honey, I just announced my home address on TV to the whole world and told the bad guys to come at me so they're probably going to launch an attack on the house. Since you don't have any superpowers to defend yourself, you best stay away from the house for awhile so that you don't get in the line of fire when the bad guys attack."
he does care for Happy and Pepper. Right, Tony cared about Pepper so much that he didn't even bother to warn her to stay away from the house so she wouldn't get in the line of fire after he announced his home address on TV to the whole world and told the bad guys to come at him. |
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Post by dazz on Sept 13, 2017 14:57:51 GMT
Hawkeye's family is secret that's their protection, they live in the middle of nowhere so it is easy to keep him secret, also it's clear even when Widow made all of shields files public she kept some things hidden, hence why his family is a surprise to everyone in Ultron.
Pepper got with Tony after he outed himself, and otherwise she has the resources of the company to hire bodyguards, and in IM3 they showed Tony's plan to protect Pepper, put her in a suit in a crisis, Happy is at risk regardless due to his position in Tony's life anyway, it's not like Tony was a meek nobody to start he was Tony Stark he was rich & powerful and a celeb to start which meant he had enemies and would be the target of threats regardless so it's kind of a non-issue imo.
Also Tony does care he called out the Mandarin because Happy almost died, but then it's also the thing where like I said he announced he was Iron Man then hooked up with Pepper and promoted Happy bringing him closer, they were in a way just employee's to the pre-IM Tony, their relationships evolve to be closer afterwards, before hand no one would think that kidnapping Tony's assistant or driver would be the emotional leverage they needed to control him.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 13, 2017 14:58:48 GMT
Going after their families wouldn't have done a damn thing So you're saying that Zemo wouldn't get any satisfaction at all from killing Pepper Potts or Hawkeye's girlfriend and kids? No, because he'd know that wouldn't destroy the Avengers. He wanted more than some cliche "Stuff them in the fridge" damage. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 13, 2017 15:03:40 GMT
So you're saying that Zemo wouldn't get any satisfaction at all from killing Pepper Potts or Hawkeye's girlfriend and kids? No, because he'd know that wouldn't destroy the Avengers. So you're saying that Zemo would get no satisfaction from making Tony Stark or Clint Barton know what it feels like to have their family and loved ones killed? You're saying that Zemo doesn't think it would destroy Tony Stark or Clint Barton knowing that their families or loved ones were killed as retribution for their actions? |
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Sept 13, 2017 15:05:56 GMT
Can someone tell that idiot that the woman is Clint's wife, not his girlfriend? Does he even pay attention?
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Post by dazz on Sept 13, 2017 15:06:14 GMT
he does care for Happy and Pepper. Right, Tony cared about Pepper so much that he didn't even bother to warn her to stay away from the house so she wouldn't get in the line of fire after he announced his home address on TV to the whole world and told the bad guys to come at him. You are ignoring the part where Tony isn't acting rationally here he's acting emotionally, also his plan was to protect her at his place, again may not be logical but Tony knew the dangers and felt him and his army of super hi tech suits could protect her where access to them was at it's easiest. |
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Sept 13, 2017 15:10:13 GMT
Can someone tell that idiot that the woman is Clint's wife, not his girlfriend? Does he even pay attention? I kept noticing that too. He claims he watched Age of Ultron, but now it's evident he's full of shit. |
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