Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 4:09:25 GMT
I don't know if a god exists or not. I don't know if multiple gods exist or not. Here's the best part of it: None of us will ever know whether god(s) exist or not. Like I said, you dont hold the belief that a god exists, therefore you aren't a theist. Even though I know you aren't agreeing, you are still proving our point. Like i said, i don't KNOW i also don't hold the belief that god doesn't exist, therefore i am not an atheist. QED
|
|
islandmur
Sophomore
All religions have messages of peace and love yet all religions are used for wars and hatred...
@islandmur
Posts: 320
Likes: 180
|
Post by islandmur on Mar 5, 2017 4:11:14 GMT
I still hold the position that agnostic theist might be a term, but any believer naming themselves that... have struck a mighty blow to their own beliefs.
If you believe your god exists, than you can not doubt his existence. And saying "well I believe but I don't know if he's real" is doubt. Yes you may not be able to offer proof to others, but to yourself you should be sure.
|
|
puvo
Sophomore
@puvo
Posts: 575
Likes: 78
|
Post by puvo on Mar 5, 2017 4:15:47 GMT
Like I said, you dont hold the belief that a god exists, therefore you aren't a theist. Even though I know you aren't agreeing, you are still proving our point. Like i said, i don't KNOW i also don't hold the belief that god doesn't exist, therefore i am not an atheist. QED I know its been explained to you the you dont need to claim a god does not exist to be an athiest. Again, I dont really think you are a genuine poster, so I've said all that needs saying on this point.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 4:18:04 GMT
I still hold the position that agnostic theist might be a term, but any believer naming themselves that... have struck a mighty blow to their own beliefs. If you believe your god exists, than you can not doubt his existence. And saying "well I believe but I don't know if he's real" is doubt. Yes you may not be able to offer proof to others, but to yourself you should be sure. A believer? What does that even mean?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 4:19:43 GMT
Like i said, i don't KNOW i also don't hold the belief that god doesn't exist, therefore i am not an atheist. QED I know its been explained to you the you dont need to claim a god does not exist to be an athiest. You don't need to claim a god exists to be a theist. of course you would say that. i have defeated atheist brainwashing
|
|
puvo
Sophomore
@puvo
Posts: 575
Likes: 78
|
Post by puvo on Mar 5, 2017 4:20:58 GMT
I still hold the position that agnostic theist might be a term, but any believer naming themselves that... have struck a mighty blow to their own beliefs. If you believe your god exists, than you can not doubt his existence. And saying "well I believe but I don't know if he's real" is doubt. Yes you may not be able to offer proof to others, but to yourself you should be sure. "but to yourself you should be sure." Why? Id argue every belief you have should be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism. At the very least being open to the idea you might be wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Mar 5, 2017 4:32:25 GMT
[comments on the definitions of "atheist" and "agnostic"] There are exactly three possibilities regarding belief. 1. You can believe the information is true. 2. You can believe the information is false. 3. You can abstain from addressing whether the information is true or false. The three words most readily understood to label those groups when I was in school were 1 faithful, 2 atheist, and 3 agnostic. Lately the term "theist" has come into common usage as synonymous with faithful. It might have been easier to use "disbelief" for the third category, however that word is often used in both senses two and three. Just as "disprove" definitely means to prove something (the opposite), "disbelieve" was and is commonly used to mean definitely believing something (the opposite). Another meaning for "disbelief" with some usage is lack of believe one way or the other. It is not unusual for one word to have several meanings, but in this case the different meanings span the categories it is necessary to distinguish. It fails to distinguish something that needs to be. Therefore "agnostic" is used. The notion expressed by our friend here that "knowledge" and "belief" are qualitatively or essentially different might have some validity, however in the modern world no agreement exists on the definition of "knowledge" involved and the distinction is of no use in communication. People insisting on such use are somewhat autistic in being disconnected from meanings. In the modern world "knowledge" is just the extreme end of a continuum of certainty, often synonymous with "absolute certainty." In this model "knowledge" and "belief" are thus not qualitatively or essentially different, rather just different degrees of the same thing, "certainty." Furthermore in the modern world absolute certainty can be elusive especially with abstract and nebulous concepts like deity, making the attempt at distinguishing knowledge and belief all the more preposterous in that regard. Although no agreement for the definition of "gnosis" can be obtained in the modern world (not in the dictionary with the lower case 'g') the meaning of "agnostic" can be widely and readily accepted. On the internet you will find widespread attempts at fast and loose definitions sometimes deliberately designed to mislead. Atheists are very uncomfortable admitting that they "believe" anything, but are they also very uncomfortable admitting they don't know that thing. So they waffle between two of the three categories resulting more in confusion than communication.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 4:35:14 GMT
The notion expressed by our friend here that "knowledge" and "belief" are qualitatively or essentially different might have some validity, however in the modern world no agreement exists on the definition of "knowledge" involved and the distinction is of no use in communication. People insisting on such use are somewhat autistic in being disconnected from meanings. In the modern world "knowledge" is just the extreme end of a continuum of certainty, often synonymous with "absolute certainty." In this model "knowledge" and "belief" are thus not qualitatively or essentially different, rather just different degrees of the same thing, "certainty." Furthermore in the modern world absolute certainty can be elusive especially with abstract and nebulous concepts like deity, making the attempt at distinguishing knowledge and belief all the more preposterous in that regard. I don't believe in god(s) existence or non-existence; nor do i know of god(s) existence or non-existence Thank you for clarifying
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Mar 5, 2017 4:53:39 GMT
The notion expressed by our friend here that "knowledge" and "belief" are qualitatively or essentially different might have some validity, however in the modern world no agreement exists on the definition of "knowledge" involved and the distinction is of no use in communication. People insisting on such use are somewhat autistic in being disconnected from meanings. In the modern world "knowledge" is just the extreme end of a continuum of certainty, often synonymous with "absolute certainty." In this model "knowledge" and "belief" are thus not qualitatively or essentially different, rather just different degrees of the same thing, "certainty." Furthermore in the modern world absolute certainty can be elusive especially with abstract and nebulous concepts like deity, making the attempt at distinguishing knowledge and belief all the more preposterous in that regard. I don't believe in god(s) existence or non-existence; nor do i know of god(s) existence or non-existence Thank you for clarifying Actually the statement "I don't believe in god(s) existence" is misleading. Just as the word "disbelief" can have different meanings, "I don't believe," can mean believing there is no god or abstaining from belief either way. It is often used deliberately to confuse. The correct, not misleading, definition of an atheist is "one who believes there is no god." Only that definition is clear. The correct term for a person who "lacks" belief is agnostic.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 4:56:41 GMT
I don't believe in god(s) existence or non-existence; nor do i know of god(s) existence or non-existence Thank you for clarifying Actually the statement "I don't believe in god(s) existence" is misleading. Just as the word "disbelief" can have different meanings, "I don't believe," can mean believing there is no god or abstaining from belief either way. It is often used deliberately to confuse. The correct, not misleading, definition of an atheist is "one who believes there is no god." Only that definition is clear. The correct term for a person who "lacks" belief is agnostic. Abstaining from belief? That's a religious viewpoint, that someone deliberately abstains from believing. Some people genuinely don't know what the ultimate truth is. And i believe that no one knows the ultimate truth. It is my personal belief so i won't impose it on others.
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 5, 2017 6:35:37 GMT
Ok, well we didn't say he didn't. We just said we aren't convinced, so we wouldn't be wrong. so you are an agnostic. glad to know I already told you that. I'm agnostic and atheist, yes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 6:36:53 GMT
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 5, 2017 6:39:49 GMT
I'm glad I taught you something new.
Just consider just earlier today you made a thread titled "How can a person be an atheist & agnostic at the same time?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 6:40:29 GMT
I'm glad I taught you something new.
No you didn't.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 6:42:21 GMT
I'm glad I taught you something new.
Just consider just earlier today you made a thread titled "How can a person be an atheist & agnostic at the same time?"
Criticism
Those such as William Lane Craig who define atheism as the denial of the existence of a god say agnosticism and atheism are incompatible.
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 5, 2017 6:56:23 GMT
I'm glad I taught you something new.
Just consider just earlier today you made a thread titled "How can a person be an atheist & agnostic at the same time?"
Criticism
Those such as William Lane Craig who define atheism as the denial of the existence of a god say agnosticism and atheism are incompatible.And he's wrong.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 14:08:05 GMT
Criticism
Those such as William Lane Craig who define atheism as the denial of the existence of a god say agnosticism and atheism are incompatible. And he's wrong. No he is right. We are done here.
|
|
islandmur
Sophomore
All religions have messages of peace and love yet all religions are used for wars and hatred...
@islandmur
Posts: 320
Likes: 180
|
Post by islandmur on Mar 5, 2017 14:40:18 GMT
I still hold the position that agnostic theist might be a term, but any believer naming themselves that... have struck a mighty blow to their own beliefs. If you believe your god exists, than you can not doubt his existence. And saying "well I believe but I don't know if he's real" is doubt. Yes you may not be able to offer proof to others, but to yourself you should be sure. "but to yourself you should be sure." Why? Id argue every belief you have should be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism. At the very least being open to the idea you might be wrong. No belief in god can not have a dose of scepticism, that's the whole point of believing in god. You can have scepticism in dogma, bible, tenets or whatever inside a religion. But if you have scepticism over the existence of the very god you purport to whorsip... there is something wrong. I'm not sure how faith and doubt can coexist when the very foundation of (religious) beliefs is faith. It is trough faith that miracles in all major religions occur... you include doubt and well no more miracles (which come to think of it might explain a lot).
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 5, 2017 15:00:57 GMT
"but to yourself you should be sure." Why? Id argue every belief you have should be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism. At the very least being open to the idea you might be wrong. No belief in god can not have a dose of scepticism, that's the whole point of believing in god. You can have scepticism in dogma, bible, tenets or whatever inside a religion. But if you have scepticism over the existence of the very god you purport to whorsip... there is something wrong. I'm not sure how faith and doubt can coexist when the very foundation of (religious) beliefs is faith. It is trough faith that miracles in all major religions occur... you include doubt and well no more miracles (which come to think of it might explain a lot). This isn't really true because belief is not a catch all phrase. One can be skeptical of the amount of influence their deity of choice has in their lives and can doubt the decisions of that deity or their involvement. So one can believe that God existed or exist without a care for humanity or is not sure. Religious people created the arguments atheist pretend to create such as "if God exists then why is there suffering". Also anything they do in contradiction to God is a sign that they don;t necessarily believe in that God's existence as opposed to them merely being hypocrites. So a belief based life is not so easy and carefree as just automatically believing anything the religion tells them. There is always a wrestling and conflict begets skepticism in existence.
|
|
islandmur
Sophomore
All religions have messages of peace and love yet all religions are used for wars and hatred...
@islandmur
Posts: 320
Likes: 180
|
Post by islandmur on Mar 5, 2017 15:30:19 GMT
No belief in god can not have a dose of scepticism, that's the whole point of believing in god. You can have scepticism in dogma, bible, tenets or whatever inside a religion. But if you have scepticism over the existence of the very god you purport to whorsip... there is something wrong. I'm not sure how faith and doubt can coexist when the very foundation of (religious) beliefs is faith. It is trough faith that miracles in all major religions occur... you include doubt and well no more miracles (which come to think of it might explain a lot). This isn't really true because belief is not a catch all phrase. One can be skeptical of the amount of influence their deity of choice has in their lives and can doubt the decisions of that deity or their involvement. So one can believe that God existed or exist without a care for humanity or is not sure. Religious people created the arguments atheist pretend to create such as "if God exists then why is there suffering". Also anything they do in contradiction to God is a sign that they don;t necessarily believe in that God's existence as opposed to them merely being hypocrites. So a belief based life is not so easy and carefree as just automatically believing anything the religion tells them. There is always a wrestling and conflict begets skepticism in existence. Did you actuallly read what I wrote? Because you seem to have reworded my statement and proceeded to critisize me at the same time.
|
|