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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 18:48:41 GMT
Warriors 3 death is a good example of how their deaths were not impactful because we didnt get to see Thors response. They were killing for the sake of killing. Shock factor as you put it. Yeah, and so would indiscriminately killing off the cast in Civil War. Plus we'd immediately side with which side lost someone first. X3, they kill off Cyclops...hardly ANYONE cared or gave him a moment of thought. As for Erik's family...it doesn't mean much if you KNOW they're there just to die. It's manipulative and crappy writing. In fact, Erik's whole story in Apocalypse stunk. He gave up on his ambitions to because a Steel Worker? Seriously? Actually, it did. He'd just be dead if the suit was less durable. Go watch Twin Peaks and tell me that it has any one set tone. He still didn't mourn any of them and feel bad they were dead. Even at his lowest, IM2, Tony didn't snap like that and demand that Rhodey give back the War Machine suit or try to kill him for "betraying" him. They only fought because Tony was drunk and even then it wasn't some fight to the death. I'd say his personality was "set". If tony snapping is a "welcome change" then by that logic so is Xavier. Unless this is a double standard. Please, there are easy ways to contrive him dying in the present day if they cared to kill him.
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Post by kuatorises on Nov 27, 2017 19:24:26 GMT
When you use a phrase like "Marvel Movies" you are implying that they are all the same, and that's simply not true. Iron Man 1, Civil War, GOTG, are all quite different from each other. Capt. America one and two are quite different from each other and that's the same series. Apparently, because they all wear costumes and all make some jokes and all are the stars of their movies instead of the villains being the stars... that somehow means they're the same.I've seen this argument all over the Internet and about several different movies, in recent years. People have generally gotten dumber and so have their arguments.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 27, 2017 19:26:19 GMT
Don't see why people think Logan was risky. Wolverine is Fox's most famous and well-loved superhero and they had already proved an R-rated film is profitable after Deadpool. Where was the risk?
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 27, 2017 20:09:46 GMT
harpospoke Most of what you said wasn't exactly new. There were plenty of superhero movies that were made prior to Iron Man that weren't A list heroes. They made an R rated trilogy out of Blade. They made movies for The Punisher, Daredevil, Ghost Rider, Elektra, Catwoman and Hellboy. All of them aside from possibly Catwoman weren't as well known as Iron Man, Captain America or Thor. The shared universe was a big idea but it had been done before to a lesser extent with Alien vs Predator and Freddy vs Jason and they did well. Still what I mean is that most of these movies are similar in tone and formula. They're all similar to The Avengers, they're all light hearted, they have all have plenty of jokes, they are all big budget movies, they're all PG-13, they all lead up to a certain movie so they can be predictable. Unlike what they've done with X-men, there's no violent R rated movie, there's no horror movie, none of the major characters are ever killed off because we all know they're going to be in Infinity War, the bad guy never wins, there's no real significant plot twists etc. None of that is the same thing Marvel did. New Line Cinema wasn't a brand new studio trying to get off the ground with an unknown property. Hardly the same risk Marvel was taking. Marvel was literally putting all their chips on Iron Man being a success. If that fails...we aren't having this conversation. New Line would still be around if Blade failed. Same with the Punisher. That was Lion's Gate's 3rd highest grossing movie that year. The fortunes of the company weren't exactly riding on that. Ditto for Daredevil. That was Fox's 3rd highest grossing movie in 2003. Same for Ghost Rider. That was Sony's 3rd biggest movie of 2007. I don't think Sony was crossing their fingers that it would make their studio viable. Hellboy....the 3rd biggest movie for Sony Revolution in 2004. There is a pattern forming here. Well...Elekra breaks the pattern. It was the 14th biggest movie for Fox in 2005. I'm thinking the Star Wars movie was a bigger deal them that year. Marvel was the only studio to ever START with the shared universe. Others tacked on something like that in as a desperate gimmick to boost the box office of fading franchises. So that's a risk no one else ever tried. Winter Soldier is nothing like Guardians of the Galaxy or Thor 3 so no idea where you are getting that from. "All are big budget"...well that's not surprising. Fox took 17 years to do an R rated movie so that's not any achievement. They only did it because they reduced the budget and let RR do it right the year before. That's not a risk either with that budget. (which is why they made the budget that small in the first place) Fox is the epitome of "avoiding risk" with their R rated CBMs. And there is that "Marvel never kills major characters" thing again. Who does that? Why is Marvel the only studio that is expected to kill off major characters? Superman just came back to life in JL...that's how this is always going to work. Iron Man, Cap, Thor, and Hulk don't die in Marvel films? No kidding! Go ahead and claim that Prof X and Wolverine are gone for good for Fox. I dare you. (Prof X has already come back to life once)
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 27, 2017 20:16:53 GMT
The bad guys never won in X-Men, while in the MCU we got one who did (Zemo). And no major characters die in X-Men, closest was Logan but they wimped out and made that some AU future world instead of the present day. More bulls$%# being spewed. Both Magneto and Shaw in First Class won. Shaw because he got the humans to fire the nukes which is what his plan was all along. Shaw also successfully moulded Eric into becoming a less sadistic version of himself and joining his brotherhood cause. That also at the failure of Charles' reasoning and plea not to kill Shaw because it wouldnt be a long term solution and hel end up just like him. And Zemo didnt win jack. Steve and Tony clearly were fine at the end. Tony should have been mad that the dispute between Cap on the accords left his best friend paralysed (which was a copout because they didn't have the balls to kill him and make the story actually have stakes). Not to mention Stark finding out Cap hid the truth of his parents death. But what kind of tone does Civil War conclude with? Laughing from Rhodey, Stark acting sombre, a Tony Stank joke and a general upbeat feeling. They watered down the CW story which is what Disney are best at doing. And Xmen characters die, period. Cylops, Jean, Logan, Xavier. Boy are you going to be eating crow when Cylops, Jean, Logan, and Prof X show up in future Fox movies. Most of them will be in theaters next November. So much for those "stakes" that only Marvel is expected to have. Fake complaint. You obviously missed the part in Civil War where Nemo was smiling because he knew he won. You'll also need to skip the part in the next movie that Cap and Tony meet face to face where they have to work out the tension between them. That's the only way you'll be able to maintain the "everything was fine at the end of Civil War" fantasy.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 27, 2017 20:20:50 GMT
They killed off Cyclops, Professor X and Jean Grey in X-men 3. Professor X did come back later on, the others in an alternate timeline but they still did actually die. Same with how they killed off all the major X-men in Days of Future Past though only briefly. Then they were all dead by Logan and of course then Professor X died for real and then also Wolverine died. They don't kill off any major characters in the MCU, 17 movies and the only real hero they killed was Quicksilver who wasn't really even a main one. Of course they won't kill them off because we've known well in advance they're going to appear in Infinity War. They could have killed off War Machine in Civil War. Ultron could have killed Hawkeye instead of Quicksilver but they never would. Oh that counts now? Just because it isn't Marvel I guess. Because Marvel killed off most of the Avengers already if that stuff counts.
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Post by harpospoke on Nov 27, 2017 20:23:10 GMT
When you use a phrase like "Marvel Movies" you are implying that they are all the same, and that's simply not true. Iron Man 1, Civil War, GOTG, are all quite different from each other. Capt. America one and two are quite different from each other and that's the same series. Thor 3 is practically a different franchise than Thor 1 and 2.
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Post by scabab on Nov 27, 2017 21:12:48 GMT
harpospokeIron Man wasn't an unknown property. He'd been around just as long as Spider-man. He'd been in different cartoons, he had how own cartoon, he'd been in popular video games, people knew who Iron Man was. They made a superhero movie at a time when superhero movies were making a lot of money, even Ghost Rider as awful as that movie was made a lot of money. Or it took 8 movies before they decided to do a R rated movie. Marvel won't have an R rated movie within the first 20 movies. Unlike other studios they are incredibly limited in what they could do from the get go. While other studios can make anything and everything, Marvel only make superhero movies belonging to a certain brand. There's been 17 movies now and not one major character has died. A few side characters like Coulson or Odin and that's it. Never mind not killing Iron Man or Captain America, they haven't killed off Black Widow, Hawkeye, Nick Fury, Falcon, War Machine, Drax etc. And we all know they wouldn't. Of course that doesn't count, that was an apocalyptic vision. It's not something that has actually happened so they never died. The X-men did actually die. Yeah they came back because of an alternate timeline but they still died. Then they were all dead again by Logan. Other major characters die actually die on screen.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 27, 2017 21:54:51 GMT
Doing an R-rated movie isn't exactly a risk.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Nov 27, 2017 22:19:38 GMT
Doing an R-rated movie isn't exactly a risk. Thank you. All these folks who seem to think that an R-rating is the mark of serious film making are misinformed. A movie does not need graphic violence or sex to be a good movie. So many people seem to forget that comic book super heroes were created to entertain children. There are exceptions of course but making an R-rated Superman movie would not be taking a bold risk. It would be just plain stupid. PG-13 movies can be enjoyed by kids and adults alike (as the box office proves). Logan could have easily been rated PG-13 and it would have been just as successful. They could have made the violence less graphic, changed the language, removed the pointless nudity scene and no one would have known the difference. Deadpool is an exception because he has always been a raunchy comedy parody of super heroes anyway.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 22:28:06 GMT
More bulls$%# being spewed. Both Magneto and Shaw in First Class won. Shaw because he got the humans to fire the nukes which is what his plan was all along. Shaw also successfully moulded Eric into becoming a less sadistic version of himself and joining his brotherhood cause. That also at the failure of Charles' reasoning and plea not to kill Shaw because it wouldnt be a long term solution and hel end up just like him. And Zemo didnt win jack. Steve and Tony clearly were fine at the end. Tony should have been mad that the dispute between Cap on the accords left his best friend paralysed (which was a copout because they didn't have the balls to kill him and make the story actually have stakes). Not to mention Stark finding out Cap hid the truth of his parents death. But what kind of tone does Civil War conclude with? Laughing from Rhodey, Stark acting sombre, a Tony Stank joke and a general upbeat feeling. They watered down the CW story which is what Disney are best at doing. And Xmen characters die, period. Cylops, Jean, Logan, Xavier. Boy are you going to be eating crow when Cylops, Jean, Logan, and Prof X show up in future Fox movies. Most of them will be in theaters next November. So much for those "stakes" that only Marvel is expected to have. Fake complaint. You obviously missed the part in Civil War where Nemo was smiling because he knew he won. You'll also need to skip the part in the next movie that Cap and Tony meet face to face where they have to work out the tension between them. That's the only way you'll be able to maintain the "everything was fine at the end of Civil War" fantasy. Cyclops, Jean etc are not the same as the original characters who had their own auora and arcs. Big difference that you fail to recognise. Zemo can smile but the fact is hes not crumbled an empire thats dead forever. His words not mine. The Avengers will be reunite - fact. Hence the stakes in Civil War were fake. No one died. No one hates each other's guts. Panther and WS made up. Rhodey was fine getting paralysed. Vision and Wanda were cool. Hawkeye-Romanov were on friendly terms. Zemo failed.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Nov 27, 2017 22:38:02 GMT
Back to the original topic for a moment. What's the Marvel formula again?
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 22:43:03 GMT
Logan could have easily been rated PG-13 and it would have been just as successful. They could have made the violence less graphic, changed the language, removed the pointless nudity scene and no one would have known the difference. The darker themes presented in Logan was not suitable for children.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 22:52:07 GMT
Back to the original topic for a moment. What's the Marvel formula again? The general gist is: Lighthearted tone Forgettable weak villains Shying away from drama Excess low brow slapstick comedy Low stakes Quips and one liners during big action scenes Playing it safe on serious issues like addiction Sitcom feel to most of the movies Heros share very similar origins, attitudes and personalities
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Nov 27, 2017 23:00:20 GMT
Boy are you going to be eating crow when Cylops, Jean, Logan, and Prof X show up in future Fox movies. Most of them will be in theaters next November. So much for those "stakes" that only Marvel is expected to have. Fake complaint. You obviously missed the part in Civil War where Nemo was smiling because he knew he won. You'll also need to skip the part in the next movie that Cap and Tony meet face to face where they have to work out the tension between them. That's the only way you'll be able to maintain the "everything was fine at the end of Civil War" fantasy. Cyclops, Jean etc are not the same as the original characters who had their own auora and arcs. Big difference that you fail to recognise. Zemo can smile but the fact is hes not crumbled an empire thats dead forever. His words not mine. The Avengers will be reunite - fact. Hence the stakes in Civil War were fake. No one died. No one hates each other's guts. Panther and WS made up. Rhodey was fine getting paralysed. Vision and Wanda were cool. Hawkeye-Romanov were on friendly terms. Zemo failed. Er, no. Tony still hasn't forgave Steve, and Panther wrongfully accused Winter Soldier of killing his father, that's why they're on good terms now. Vision and Wanda will be a couple, not sure why you're complaining, and Hawkeye and Black Widow have always been friends. There's still a trust that's been lost, and the Avengers need to regain that trust. Zemo won. You know, for a film that's simple, you seem to completely misunderstand it.
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Post by justanaveragejoe on Nov 27, 2017 23:06:19 GMT
Back to the original topic for a moment. What's the Marvel formula again? The general gist is: Lighthearted tone Forgettable weak villains Shying away from drama Excess low brow slapstick comedy Low stakes Quips and one liners during big action scenes Playing it safe on serious issues like addiction Sitcom feel to most of the movies Heros share very similar origins, attitudes and personalities That looks more like nitpicks from MCU haters than a formula.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 23:10:02 GMT
Cyclops, Jean etc are not the same as the original characters who had their own auora and arcs. Big difference that you fail to recognise. It's not a major difference, at all. Please, in the comic everything that happened in Civil War was undone too. You're complaining they didn't end the MCU in Civil War and kill everyone? At least they're reconcile due to character development instead of needing time travel to reset everything.
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Post by formersamhmd on Nov 27, 2017 23:10:54 GMT
Logan could have easily been rated PG-13 and it would have been just as successful. They could have made the violence less graphic, changed the language, removed the pointless nudity scene and no one would have known the difference. The darker themes presented in Logan was not suitable for children. Like what? Getting old and dying?
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 23:12:13 GMT
Cyclops, Jean etc are not the same as the original characters who had their own auora and arcs. Big difference that you fail to recognise. Zemo can smile but the fact is hes not crumbled an empire thats dead forever. His words not mine. The Avengers will be reunite - fact. Hence the stakes in Civil War were fake. No one died. No one hates each other's guts. Panther and WS made up. Rhodey was fine getting paralysed. Vision and Wanda were cool. Hawkeye-Romanov were on friendly terms. Zemo failed. Er, no. Tony still hasn't forgave Steve, and Panther wrongfully accused Winter Soldier of killing his father, that's why they're on good terms now. Vision and Wanda will be a couple, not sure why you're complaining, and Hawkeye and Black Widow have always been friends. There's still a trust that's been lost, and the Avengers need to regain that trust. Zemo won. You know, for a film that's simple, you seem to completely misunderstand it. The Avengers will reform- Zemo hasnt won. He simply caused a little more friction between Stark and Cap, which was always present since Avengers 1. Everyone else is cool. Winning would be Vision killing Rhodey to cause a real irrepairable division. Stark then blaming Cap and holding him responsible along with his team. Verbally disbanding the Avengers and pulling out his money thats funding it. Ordering shield to hunt down and bring in Cap and Bucky to get justice for Rhodey and his parents. Just giving weight to the whole issue. I left Civil War underwhelmed and thinking, yeah tony and cap may have a tense moment in the next film, but differences will be put aside fairly quickly. By killing Rhodey this quest for redemption would be almost impossible, giving genuine intrigue to audiences on how Cap and Stark will be able to reconcile. As it stands, its fairly predictable.
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Post by charzhino on Nov 27, 2017 23:13:35 GMT
The general gist is: Lighthearted tone Forgettable weak villains Shying away from drama Excess low brow slapstick comedy Low stakes Quips and one liners during big action scenes Playing it safe on serious issues like addiction Sitcom feel to most of the movies Heros share very similar origins, attitudes and personalities That looks more like nitpicks from MCU haters than a formula. Its not nitpicks when its generalised statements is it? Go ahead, pick 5 random movies and all these would probably apply.
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