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Post by ArArArchStanton on Dec 8, 2017 3:22:45 GMT
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, no. You mean the DBZ/Matrix Revolutions fight at the end? Or the cornfield brawl that had no narrative structure and just sort of kept going until it finally ended. If all you care about is crashing and punching I guess they did better, but a fight scene can be incredibly boring if it's just mindless action and exhibit A is Man of Steel. That's a bit harsh. I think there is a middle ground when it comes to Man of Steel's fight choreography. Yes, much of the fighting in that film was fatigue inducing but, some of the exchanges between Faora-Ul and Kal-El were very well done because they had occasional pauses that allowed you to process the action. BTW - The MCU could do worse than to invite Antje Traue into a key role. I'm really surprised that she hasn't had more mainstream work. Well I'm not saying everything about the fights is bad of course, but "fatigue inducing" as you say, pretty much sums it up. Every fight I'm just sitting there waiting for it to end because there's no progression. The ending fight with Zod is a great example where all of a sudden he just kills him. There was no real progression leading to that. Compare that to the Iron Man Hulk fight, where Tony tried things like leading him out of the city, or gassing him, before burying him in a building. In MOS it's just randoming fighting all over the placing with no real purpose until out of nowhere he just neck snaps him because there had to be an ending I guess. It's just mind numbing. |
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Post by scabab on Dec 8, 2017 3:38:33 GMT
Well, Steppenwolf wouldn't have attacked if Superman had been alive. He said so. They didn't try hard enough to make the others matter in terms of raw power. Superman shouldn't have been able to beat Steppenwolf on his own, it should've been all of them together. No he never said that. He sought out the Mother Boxes. after they reactivated shortly after Superman died. Then went to get them. Them all working together as a group to beat the villain is incredibly cliché. They had literally just done that very same thing with how they beat Doomsday and Enchantress. You wanted the same thing to happen three times in a row? He didn't have any neck armor, what was stopping her from chopping his head off?[/quote] The same thing that stopped Steppenwolf from chopping off Wonder Woman's neck, a weapon and the experience to stop that from happening. Yeah, what of it? Because she didn't attempt to. What inconsistency? Wonder Woman was weaker than Steppenwolf and Doomsday. Superman was stronger than Steppenwolf but weaker than Doomsday. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Dec 8, 2017 3:39:13 GMT
That's a bit harsh. I think there is a middle ground when it comes to Man of Steel's fight choreography. Yes, much of the fighting in that film was fatigue inducing but, some of the exchanges between Faora-Ul and Kal-El were very well done because they had occasional pauses that allowed you to process the action. BTW - The MCU could do worse than to invite Antje Traue into a key role. I'm really surprised that she hasn't had more mainstream work. Well I'm not saying everything about the fights is bad of course, but "fatigue inducing" as you say, pretty much sums it up. Every fight I'm just sitting there waiting for it to end because there's no progression. The ending fight with Zod is a great example where all of a sudden he just kills him. There was no real progression leading to that. Compare that to the Iron Man Hulk fight, where Tony tried things like leading him out of the city, or gassing him, before burying him in a building. In MOS it's just randoming fighting all over the placing with no real purpose until out of nowhere he just neck snaps him because there had to be an ending I guess. It's just mind numbing. Agreed, the "fourth act" of MoS was a pointless blitzkrieg of random violence and destruction. The only relief we get is It completely ruined the movie for me. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 8, 2017 4:16:07 GMT
No he never said that. He sought out the Mother Boxes. after they reactivated shortly after Superman died. Then went to get them. So Superman alive = Boxes staying dormant? Is it any worse than the team turning out to be useless if the Big Hero was around the whole time? He wasn't as fast as her though. Sure didn't seem that way. Didn't attempt to, or couldn't? She held her ground better against Doomsday and did more damage to him than Steppenwolf, who was weaker than DD. Compare this to his consistent Marvel keeps their characters powers. |
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Post by scabab on Dec 8, 2017 9:35:30 GMT
So Superman alive = Boxes staying dormant? Who knows. The boxes just happened to reactivate following his death. Yes it is when it's done time and time again. It's repetitive and cliche. The group coming together to stop to the main villain, it happened in all three Fantastic Four movies, the Ninja Turtles movies, Age of Ultron, Batman vs Superman, Suicide Squad, a couple of the X-men movies etc. It's been done. He was fast and skilled enough to stop it from happening or it would have happened. Based on what? She cut through Kryptonian Skin and didn't cut through the Armour but it seems like the skin is tougher than the Armour? Huh? Did she attempt to? I don't even remember. She did more damage only because Doomsday is a mindless monster who can't properly def Compare this to his consistent Marvel keeps their characters powers. [/quote] And it's far worse and this is brought up on the appropriate forums that are more dedicated to this kind of thing. Though more understandable because of the sheer amount of movies but they do include how Iron Man has seemingly gotten weaker over time, being able to shrug off tank missiles and give Thor a good even battle to getting beaten around by Captain America. Speaking of Captain America he apparently just gets stronger all the time. Going from having to exert effort to bend a bar to being able to stop a helicopter from taking off. Went from having trouble with Red Skull who can put a small dent in a metal shield to giving Ultron heaps of trouble and throwing him through a concrete block. Thor had plenty of trouble with Loki in comparison to Hulk who beat him with comic ease but then Hulk and Thor fight evenly. Even in the TV shows, Luke Cage got punched and he didn't move, the other guy just broke his hand but then in other shows and The Defenders he had trouble with a guy from the hand and got knocked out by Elektra who was just supposed to be a regular human. Elektra then fought evenly against Daredevil who is just a regular human and someone could fight two members of the hand. Then there's all the other stuff because of Agents of Shield and then making Kree out to be at the same level as an Asgardian which creates other problems and yeah it's got plenty of consistency issues. For now DC is far better off in that regard but there's only 5 movies so it's an unfair comparison. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 8, 2017 12:22:51 GMT
Who knows. The boxes just happened to reactivate following his death. And they screwed THAT up too, because the video of Cyborg being created clearly showed that one Box as active. Is it worse than one hero making practically all the others unneeded? At least in the "Team up to stop the villain" thing the team has a point to its existence. Here, all tension is gone as soon as Superman comes back. OR...there just wasn't much thought put into it and the writers just didn't care how powerful WW had been written in her own movie because they wanted Superman to be top dog. No matter what this did to Diana's power level. We didn't get anything from Steppenwolf that showed he had anything close to Kryptonian durability. Or strength, or speed. If we'd seen him get attacked by a Human Army and he annihilates them with super speed and we see him unaffected by a nuke blast we'd have an idea of his strength level. Did Steppenwolf show he has super speed to counter hers? I don't think he did. He shouldn't have been able to def against her at all. There's a trade off to every advancement he can make to his armor. One enhancement can mean growing weakness elsewhere. The ones that can shrug off old Tank weapons doesn't mean they can stand up to continue hits from Vibranium (Cap's Shield) and whatever Bucky's arm was made of. The Super Soldier treatment continues to make him stronger as time goes on. Thor got stronger in Ragnarok, it was part of the plot. She's Black Sky, not a normal human. Plus whatever the Hand did when they revived her. Plus Luke's thing is that he's untrained in his powers, he just relies on his invulnerability and everytime he runs into something that can bypass it (Iron Fist's punch, the Judas Bullet) he has problems. \ DD ain't normal either, that chemical splash that blinded him augmented the rest of him. Maybe, but you don't make someone practically all-powerful in their own movie (Wonder Woman) and then forget about that when you want to make another hero stronger (Superman). |
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 8, 2017 12:49:54 GMT
The action scenes in The Avengers (first movie) are superb. I'm very nitpicky with my action and I have very few complaints about those scenes in the first movie. The action scenes in Age of Ultron however were nowhere near as good. The airport sequence in Civil War was phenominal! But the rest of the action scenes in the Russo Cap movies have way too much shaky cam. And shaky cam action suuuuuuucccccckkkksss!!!!!!!!!!1 Hilarious. The Winter Soldier has the best action scenes in any comic book movie ever made. |
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Post by scabab on Dec 8, 2017 13:34:23 GMT
And they screwed THAT up too, because the video of Cyborg being created clearly showed that one Box as active. Wasn't that after Superman died though? I'm not even saying for sure they did only reactivate after Superman I don't remember the details. However they reactivated and then Steppenwolf came to Earth to get them. He didn't only come to Earth because Superman was died who he wouldn't even know about anyway. Well no because didn't suddenly stop the Motherboard from being a threat. Plus he showed up at pretty much a couple minutes before it was all over, so all tension being gone after he showed up isn't saying anything. Or Superman was always more powerful than Wonder Woman from the very beginning as he has usually always been portrayed and you're just on the wrong line of thinking. We do have an idea of his strength level. It took an army of Amazons, Atlanteans, God's and Green Lanterns in order to beat him. Why would we need to see a mere human army to suddenly think "Oh I guess he's strong"? He was mowing the Amazons down easily. He fought against Wonder Woman and Aquaman at the same time and was winning. Ripped Cyborg in half. It was even said that he once survived a battle with a Doomsday. We have plenty of ideas. He's immensely powerful, just not compared to Superman. He was able to grab a missile and those things move ridiculously fast. It wasn't just the Shield, he was getting rocked all over the place by his punches. He was in trouble and Friday said he couldn't beat him in hand to hand. Now that Iron Man suit can withstand a Tank missile being blasted at it. Captain America was originally as strong as Red Skull who only put a small dent in a non Vibranium shield. When was that said? That was after, with the whole lightning thing. Before that, like when they fought in The Avengers they were equal. So if Hulk was able to beat Loki instantly as though it was nothing then Thor should have been able to do the exact same and yet the two times that they fought he's struggled somewhat. But Daredevil isn't. Nobu wasn't, he was just a highly skilled human but Elektra was killed by him but knocked out Luke Cage, who in his own show withstood a grenade launcher. Yeah but otherwise he's just a really fit and well trained man. He's not superhuman or anything. So if Elektra can knock out Luke Cage who has superhuman durability then why didn't she knock out Daredevil who is just a regular human? Well that's exactly what they've done with Thor. They made him out to be all powerful in his own movie when he summoned up a huge storm and killed The Destroyer. Then in The Avengers he had trouble with Loki who Hulk then beat so easily it was funny, making Thor look weak. Then in Age of Ultron, Ultron was beating up Thor, was choking him out with one hand. Then shortly after Hulk shows up in front of Ultron and he's like "Oh shit" which was supposed to be like a little funny moment showing that he actually had some fear when it came to the Hulk, which again just makes Thor look weak. Even more so that Thor was losing against Ultron only to be saved by Vision who proceeded to fight him evenly. Thor has played second (even third) fiddle in both these Avengers movies even though in the comics he's the most powerful of the lot or at least on the same level as Hulk. Thor Ragnarok restored that image to a large extent, he's clearly the most powerful of the lot now, though I'm concerned it will be overlooked big time in Infinity War. Superman was always the most powerful one of the lot in DC though. They've said that many times. Wonder Woman, Aquaman and even Shazam when they get around to him should not be on Superman's level. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 8, 2017 14:04:49 GMT
Wasn't that after Superman died though? Nope, it was in the videos Batman and WW watched in BvS long before the DD fight. Remember his lines in the trailers about how the world had no real defenders, including "Kryptonians" in there too? You know what I mean though, he took out Steppenwolf easily. With the implication being that there'd have been little danger if he hadn't been dead the whole time. Sure didn't seem that way in BvS. An army in Ancient times. He killed the Lantern easily but we never saw the Lantern do anything so there's no power gauge. The Amazons were never that strong as they got killed easily by WWI Germans, the Atlanteans have no feats yet. The Amazons weren't that tough to begin with. For comparison, look at Hela massacring two Asgardian Armies in Ragnarok. We have little idea how tough Aquaman is, same with Cyborg. And WW came off as weak compared to her fight with Ares and Doomsday. If she'd tried to chop his head off and her sword broke, that would've been something. So can the Hulk, no one thinks he has super speed. It was the same armor from the Airport fight, it's believable that he'd taken some damage by then and wasn't at full strength. And that was his first big battle, wasn't it? Years have passed since then. Comics, I think. Nothing in the movie says otherwise. That, and Thor wasn't really trying to fight Hulk in Ragnarok to hurt him. Loki knows how Thor fights, and has his cunning and stuff. Luke was also knocked out by a shotgun blast in JJ. Plus I think Nobu was more than a normal human. I think he is. Luke can be knocked out, and he doesn't have much skill. He relies on his toughness and always has trouble when faced with something he can't shrug off. That wasn't really being all-powerful, that was just fighting intelligently and not trying to fight the Destroyer head on. Ultron may have reacted that way, but neither of them were able to damage him (until the very end when Ultron wasn't in a Vibranium body anymore). Plus the movie showed Thor was superior to all the other Avengers in speed. When we saw Quicksilver's POV everyone was frozen except Thor. Vision DOES have an Infinity Stone's energies in him. Shazam should be on his level, I think. And the JL storylines have always managed to do stories with him that don't make the rest of the League unnecessary. But this is getting to my other point about how DC's always had a harder time making their characters like Superman not make all other redundant. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 8, 2017 17:41:57 GMT
Well the final big scale battle sequence between the Heroes and the fodder army was done better in The Avengers movies. I'd take the Justice League's fight with Superman over Thor's fairly mediocre fight with Hulk and maaaaybe above Thor's fight with Iron Man as well. The JL's fight with Superman was undercut by how underpowered some of them were against him (Wonder Woman) when they were previously shown to be on that level (her fight with Doomsday). Agree AND disagree. Yes, they were under-powered compared to him (that was the point of bringing him back), but Wonder Woman was the one who WAS powerful enough to stand up to him, or else that head-butt would have crushed her skull in. Of them all she's the one who got good shots at him.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 8, 2017 17:43:18 GMT
I loved the action Avengers too. And maybe they do wreck the ones in Justice League, maybe. But every action/fight sequence in Man of Steel destroys Avengers. And even the one at the end of BvS is right up there. Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, no. You mean the DBZ/Matrix Revolutions fight at the end? Or the cornfield brawl that had no narrative structure and just sort of kept going until it finally ended. If all you care about is crashing and punching I guess they did better, but a fight scene can be incredibly boring if it's just mindless action and exhibit A is Man of Steel. I expect no other opinion from you. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 8, 2017 18:05:22 GMT
The JL's fight with Superman was undercut by how underpowered some of them were against him (Wonder Woman) when they were previously shown to be on that level (her fight with Doomsday). Agree AND disagree. Yes, they were under-powered compared to him (that was the point of bringing him back), but Wonder Woman was the one who WAS powerful enough to stand up to him, or else that head-butt would have crushed her skull in. Of them all she's the one who got good shots at him.
I think that's just because no one bleeds in Zack Snyder's works. I mean, in Sucker Punch he had someone be lobotomized by a spike through the eye and there was no blood. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 8, 2017 18:28:51 GMT
Agree AND disagree. Yes, they were under-powered compared to him (that was the point of bringing him back), but Wonder Woman was the one who WAS powerful enough to stand up to him, or else that head-butt would have crushed her skull in. Of them all she's the one who got good shots at him.
I think that's just because no one bleeds in Zack Snyder's works. I mean, in Sucker Punch he had someone be lobotomized by a spike through the eye and there was no blood. hmmmmm... I think I remember lots of blood in Dawn of the Dead and 300. And wasn't there blood in Sucker Punch when they kill a guy towards the end? I guess you mean the DCEU movies.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 8, 2017 18:30:57 GMT
I think that's just because no one bleeds in Zack Snyder's works. I mean, in Sucker Punch he had someone be lobotomized by a spike through the eye and there was no blood. hmmmmm... I think I remember lots of blood in Dawn of the Dead and 300. And wasn't there blood in Sucker Punch when they kill a guy towards the end? I guess you mean the DCEU movies.
The blood in 300 was all colored out so it didn't look like blood. And I've never seen Dawn of the Dead. And there was little to no blood in Sucker Punch. Snyder seems against it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 18:31:22 GMT
The action scenes in The Avengers (first movie) are superb. I'm very nitpicky with my action and I have very few complaints about those scenes in the first movie. The action scenes in Age of Ultron however were nowhere near as good. The airport sequence in Civil War was phenominal! But the rest of the action scenes in the Russo Cap movies have way too much shaky cam. And shaky cam action suuuuuuucccccckkkksss!!!!!!!!!!1 Hilarious. The Winter Soldier has the best action scenes in any comic book movie ever made. Shaky cam suuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!7!!!!8!!!!9 |
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Post by DSDSquared on Dec 8, 2017 18:38:05 GMT
Hilarious. The Winter Soldier has the best action scenes in any comic book movie ever made. Shaky cam suuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!7!!!!8!!!!9 The highway fight, the elevator fight, the entire boat scene in the beginning, etc. The Winter Soldier had some amazing action sequences and the best of the MCU. |
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Post by scabab on Dec 8, 2017 23:32:00 GMT
Nope, it was in the videos Batman and WW watched in BvS long before the DD fight. We don't know how long before it was. In any case Steppenwolf didn't avoid coming to Earth because of Superman. So if it wasn't for the others everyone would have died. That doesn't mean he only came to Earth because there were no Kryptonians. There just happened to not be any of them or Green Lanterns when he arrived. Not from Steppenwolf physically no but he would have still got the Mother Boxes which were a threat in it itself Ancient Times or not, it was an Army of Thousands. Green Lantern isn't going to be inferior to a Tank. If just the Amazons were enough then there wouldn't have been need for all the others. Aquaman is comparable to Wonder Woman and we know how tough Wonder Woman is. Wonder Woman coming across as weak when we know she isn't tells us Steppenwolf is strong it's not complicated. You wouldn't say Thor was a pansy because he was beaten around by that Kurse scrub, you'd say Kurse was powerful. When did the Hulk grab a missile in the movies? And he does have super speed as he's faster than any regular human. There was nothing to imply that. The suit did not look damaged nor was said to be operating at less than full power. So if the movie didn't mention it then it counts as an inconsistency. If you include that then you have to include that in the comics Superman was brought back stronger because of the mother boxes. That, and Thor wasn't really trying to fight Hulk in Ragnarok to hurt him. That helps him when it comes to trucking him with mirages. In their physical fight however Loki was able to put up a fight against Thor but was utterly overwhelmed by Hulk. If Thor and Hulk are equal and Hulk can beat Loki so easily by smashing him off the floor then Thor should not have struggled as he did. Which was point blank under his chin. In Luke Cage he was shot at with machine guns and casually walked through it. Somehow Elektra can throw a kick with the force of a shotgun yet then not kill Daredevil when he repeatedly hits him. I think he is. Skill wouldn't matter. It was shown that regular humans can't hurt him with attacks like Iron Fist. Diamondback couldn't even knock him out and he had Hammer Tech that made him strong enough to throw Motorcycles. Elektra however is like Iron Fist, a highly skilled fighter but a regular human who somehow knocked him out. He created a hurricane. Then drove The Destroyers blast right back into its face causing it to explode. But in a deleted scene Thor and Vision fought and they were equal there. Then when it came to Ultron, Vision seemed superior. Point being they did the same where they made Thor look weak only to make Vision look better. Maybe in some media but then you have Injustice where you had the evil Superman and he killed Shazam easily and none of the other heroes did anything about it out of fear of him. If anyone is portrayed as being a notch above the rest it's Superman. There was that Justice League cartoon where Darkseid would be the villain and would give no end of trouble to the Justice League but only Superman could really fight him back. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 8, 2017 23:57:48 GMT
We don't know how long before it was. It was from that database he stole from Luthor, so it had to have happened like months before BvS. Quite a coincidence he only came after Superman did, hm? And Luthor TOLD us someone was coming at the end of BvS directly because of this? I think it does, since it was tied to what Luthor was talking about at the end of BvS. I'm not sure he would've gotten the 3rd Box if Supes was around. An Army of Thousands of primitives, many of whom he just turned into Parademons. And the GL showed next to no power, we can't just take it on assumption he was powerful. Says who? Yes, because they showed us how powerful Thor was beforehand and it took a BLACK HOLE to stop Kurse. Canon tie-in comic. It had Ant-Man running around inside it, messing it up and Tony had no time to stop for repairs. Internal damage. When was that stated anywhere? Yes. Thor wasn't trying to kill Loki either. Point being he can still be knocked out. Focused kick stronger than unfocused punches? I dunno. Like I said, Elektra was Black Sky and they were stated to be superhuman. Yeah, he turned its power against it. Intelligent. If Superman had killed Zod by covering his eyes and making his heat vision backfire in his head, it'd also be a case of Zod's power being turned against him. Possibly why it was deleted, it didn't match up. Injustice is one AU, maybe there Shazam was just weaker? I've never played it. Justice League Unlimited or Justice League War? |
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Post by scabab on Dec 9, 2017 2:01:01 GMT
Quite a coincidence he only came after Superman did, hm? No not particularly at all. If he only came as a result of Superman dying then they'd have made a specific point of that in the movie. They didn't, nor did Steppenwolf make any comment when he saw Superman that would imply its either. So it's all assumption. Only if Superman knew about the box and he wouldn't have without others characters involvement. Primitives who matched off against the German soldiers with guns. Green Lanterns are supposed to be powerful, that's kind of the point. The comparable way in which they both stood up to Steppenwolf. One did not hold up notably worse than the other. And they showed how powerful Wonder Woman was before in beating a God who killed all other Gods. That would have nothing to do with Captain America wailing on it and rocking him around. His armour wasn't any less weaker just because Ant-man messed about with it. Hell if I know, there's thousands of comics I couldn't name a specific issue, I don't even read them anymore. I just know it was mentioned as having happened before in the comic. Yes. He didn't have to, he should have been able to lay him out in seconds like the Hulk. Of course he can. He was knocked out by a point blank Shotgun and a Rocket fired directly at him....and then Elektra kicking him. A focused kick wouldn't be as deadly as a rocket. The punched wouldn't be unforced either, when she first fought Daredevil in the Hallway, before she was even reminded of who she was, she hit Daredevil multiple times, punched him through a glass window. So yeah somehow Daredevil with oridinary human toughness can withstand many attacks but Luke Cage with superhuman toughness gets knocked out with one attack. Which as I said didn't help her when it came to Daredevil who immediately stood back up when punched in the chest when he didn't even have the armour on. And also powerful as it required Thor to force back The Destroyers own power. Point being that out of all Superheroes, Superman was again portrayed at the top. The one only who was supposed to be able to beat the Evil Superman was the main Superman. You wouldn't get a storyline like that where Green Lantern was at the top and Superman was one his underlings too afraid to stand up to him. More so the series though I couldn't separate the original from Unlimited. It also happened to an extent in Justice League War where Darkseid only really started to get pushed back after Superman returned. Also in that movie he was overpowering Batman and Green Lantern. In another movie he overpowered The Flash and Wonder Woman. He's meant to be the strongest of them all, Justice League also made that clear. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 9, 2017 3:09:12 GMT
No not particularly at all. If he only came as a result of Superman dying then they'd have made a specific point of that in the movie. They didn't Pretty sure the implication was clear. I'm sure he'd have found out on his own, and even if he had to ask...that just means that the other characters were there to provide exposition. Like the Collector in GOTG explaining the Infinity Stones. They didn't really match them, they were losing against a very small force. Then SHOW, don't tell. Or, WW's power levels were deliberately messed up to keep her from upstaging Superman. She really only won because Ares was dumb enough to think the lightning would work. But the point is that the powers she showed against Ares didn't match up with the power she showed in JL. What they were doing was aiming for the Arc Reactor with close range blows, and the prior damage done to the interior would've been enough to mess with the power systems powering the suit in the first place. Unless he was afraid if he did he'd kill him. Hey, that's Black Sky for you. Didn't know who she was = Not fighting at full ability. I'll have to watch Defenders again, see exactly what happened. But that was an AU, we've had AUs where Shazam WAS as powerful as Superman. Kingdom Come, for example. Ion? We're likely always going to get some stories that put him on top, and other writers doing the same with their characters...DC's never been consistent in that regard. |
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