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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jan 12, 2018 12:04:31 GMT
Another thing that needs to be pointed out:
Joss Whedon, who also co-wrote Justice League, said in the commentary for The Avengers that the whole mother ship was done simply for the Avengers to defeat the Alien army quickly.
He even joked about it being a lazy way out.
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Post by scabab on Jan 12, 2018 12:47:09 GMT
Exactly. If Steppenwolf was weaker than Doomsday than WW should've been able to fight him better. Steppenwolf may be weaker than Doomsday but Doomsday is just a mindless beast like the Hulk. Steppenwolf is a General so he'd have experience that would make up for it. He killed them in battle. You see it in the flashback sequence, all the other Gods attacked him together and Ares killed them. That's where the logic is weak. He overpowered other strong characters, that showed it on screen. We don't need to see him destroy a mountain to get the idea. Hela didn't do anything to show that she was strong. Therefore that makes the Asgardians weak? No because we saw her overpower Thor who we know is strong. The Fenrir Wolf didn't do anything but fight and give the Hulk trouble. As we know the Hulk is strong then we also know the Fenrir Wolf is strong. We know Thanos is strong simply because it was said he was the most powerful being in the Universe. If in Infinity War he simply beats up Thor and Iron Man then that doesn't mean they're weak it means Thanos is strong. If Black Adam showed up in one scene where he fought Superman to a draw then he doesn't need to do anything to show he's strong because we already know Superman is strong. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 13, 2018 0:01:18 GMT
Steppenwolf may be weaker than Doomsday but Doomsday is just a mindless beast like the Hulk. Steppenwolf is a General so he'd have experience that would make up for it. He didn't have much in the way of tactical genius either. His big plan was just "fine the three boxes and get them in one place together." Which makes them all weak. We do need to see something to get his power properly gauged. She slaughtered two Asgardians Armies all on her own. And they'll show it, properly. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 13, 2018 0:24:03 GMT
Well Steppenwolf clearly wasn't as strong as Doomsday because the former was easily beaten by Superman and the latter was giving Superman trouble. Exactly. If Steppenwolf was weaker than Doomsday than WW should've been able to fight him better. We still don't know HOW Ares killed all the other Gods, given how much stronger Zeus was implied to be than him. No, it just means we're told he's strong but nothing shows it on the screen. That it took those combined forces to stop him just makes the Amazons and Atlanteans look weak.Well said. That's something that's bothered me ever since seeing Justice League. The Amazons put up a good fight and pursuit to defend their mother box. The Atlanteans on the other hand were very weak and embarrassingly unprepared. If not for Aquaman Steppenwolf would have totally "stole" on them. |
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Post by scabab on Jan 13, 2018 10:51:04 GMT
He didn't have much in the way of tactical genius either. His big plan was just "fine the three boxes and get them in one place together." That has nothing to do with his power though. They were weak in comparison to Steppenwolf. No we dont. It was made perfectly clear from him overwhelming Wonder Woman and Aquaman at the same time. He doesn't need to destroy anything just so audiences would get the idea, it was obvious already. That just means the Asgardian Armies are really weak. They don't need to. They already said he was the most powerful. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 13, 2018 13:25:06 GMT
He didn't have much in the way of tactical genius either. His big plan was just "fine the three boxes and get them in one place together." That has nothing to do with his power though. He didn't show much in the way of power, either! You can't say a guy is strong without giving us a proper showing of his power. Look at the Borg in Star Trek, they were introduced causally trashing the Enterprise. Then when there was a REAL battle against them they wiped out 39 starships without any damage. After we'd seen how powerful Federation Starships usually are. THAT is how you build up an enemy. We have no clue how powerful Aquaman is, and Diana herself was vastly depowered from how she was in BvS and her own movie (where she was virtually invincible). The MCU had properly shown us the power of the Asgardians beforehand though with the prior movies and appearances on TV shows. The Amazons and Atlanteans, not so much. But they'll back it up with showing, not just telling. |
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Post by scabab on Jan 13, 2018 17:37:20 GMT
He didn't show much in the way of power, either! He beat up Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Aquaman, The Flash. It needed whole Armies to beat him. They needed Superman just because the others couldn't beat him. Of course you can. If one of those Four Horsemen henchmen in Infinity War were to give Hulk a run for his money then it'd be pretty apparent that the guy was powerful. She was never depowered. She only beat Ares from deflecting the Zeus's lightning back at Ares and it was Ares who summoned that lightning. Aquaman won't be weak either, he stopped a huge tunnel of water so that the Justice League could get away. All they've shown to be able to do is right 50/50 against Frost Giants and Dark Elves whose only showing is the same in return and get stomped by any notable character. All Hela did was beat up fodder the same as Steppenwolf. Likely by beating up another powerful Avenger character in the same way. |
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 13, 2018 18:01:55 GMT
I'd like to point out that Asgardians have been shown to easily push around cars, bend steel bars and crumple steel knives in their hands.
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Post by dazz on Jan 13, 2018 21:47:47 GMT
Actually she wasn't depowered from BVS, what it actually was, was Superman was at full strength in JL, in BVS both he and Doomsday were severely weakened by the kryptonite gas, Superman specifically seeing how he got a triple dose of the stuff in less than like half an hour, even then it's not like Diana slugged it out with Doomsday she used her speed and skill to offset the beast's superior strength.
And yeah she was invincible in WW against WW1 era munitions but that was about it, she was far from invincible against Ludendorf who when confident in his strength went blow for blow with her, his cowardice and her confidence is what defeated him because as soo as he got scared he was fucked had they been on equal footing skill and confidence wise she could have just as easily lost, and Ares was more than physical match for her for most of their fight, part of WW's strength isn't her strength but her training nad will, she's basically the middle ground or balance between Batman & Superman, she's damn near unstoppable but far from invincible at the same time.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 13, 2018 21:59:03 GMT
He beat up Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Aquaman, The Flash. Which makes them either weak or poorly written. Armies of weaklings. Even the GL did nothing but die. Wonder Woman lasted against Doomsday, who was more powerful than Superman. Yet Steppenwolf loses easily to Superman which means he's weaker than Doomsday. But WW couldn't do anything to Steppenwolf and she also loses to Superman despite BvS showing us she was strong enough to deal with a being MORE powerful than Superman. You seeing the inconsistency here? MCU is much more consistent with its characters. Yeah, because they built up Hulk properly. I'm talking about her being able to create a forcefield that deflects all incoming attacks, being able to fight Doomsday on equal footing, etc. She didn't show ANY kind of power like that in JL against Steppenwolf, who was weaker than Doomsday. That isn't any proper gauge of power. Nothing else in JL shows his strength or speed or durability. We saw Sif's power in Agents of Shield in comparison to Humanity. All those "notable characters" you mention are shown to be vastly more powerful already. The Asgardian fodder was built up better than the Atlanteans and Amazons. Yeah, the correct way. |
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Post by dazz on Jan 13, 2018 22:00:45 GMT
Except as pointed out repeatedly too you they didn't know their was a mothership up there, they thought Loki was the one in control hence them actually trying to take Loki down through the fight, also unless you assume a hive mind taking out the leader only minimally impacts a army in any given battle, it impacts a war because it takes out the presumably smartest and craftiest enemy leader, but in a single battle the troops already know the forces their attacking and their plan of attack so taking out the leader during that battle wouldn't mean severely weakening the enemy.
Also Tony isn't a master tactician it's the opposite as shown repeatedly in the films Tony is a genius scientist & inventor but as a fighter or soldier he relies on his tech, in IM2 his plan as Rhoadie points out is insane he put he & Rhoadie into a kill box to be surrounded by enemies, this is why when the fighting starts Tony hands off command to Cap because Cap is a better tactician.
Given how if they shut the portal down it cuts off all reinforcements the enemy can call for there by stranding them with limited numbers against the Avengers who in terms of skill & strength are far superior, so it would mean they would be facing a fixed number of potential enemies which would only shrink as the battle continued, the plan was end the invading forces from invading and then take out whichever lemmings got through before hand, which was a sound strategy, and as pointed out blowing up them mothership was a lazy out to justify ending the battle on the high note, having them continue to fight after stopping the nuke and cutting off the enemy isn't a great climatic end, so Joss used the easier solution which was nuke = end, it was done as a tool for the narrative but makes a stupid plan of actual attack. |
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Post by dazz on Jan 13, 2018 22:03:12 GMT
Ok is something wrong here because when I'm trying to quote someone it appears to be not appearing wtf is the deal with this?
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Post by scabab on Jan 13, 2018 23:45:53 GMT
Which makes them either weak or poorly written. So then Thor is weak because he was beaten by Hela. Thor was also weak for being overwhelmed by Ultron who also did nothing to show his power. Ultron actually was fairly weak as Iron Man destroyed his first body with a basic missile and even Captain America could hold his own against him. That's because he wasn't as powerful as Steppenwolf. She wasn't strong enough to deal with Doomsday. That's why Superman had to give his life to stop him. If Wonder Woman could have dealt with him then that need not happen. It isn't at all but I don't blame that due to the sheer amount more movies it has. It's fairly known that the MCU has some problematic power scaling. And they did the same for Wonder Woman. She never fought on equal footing with Doomsday. Steppenwolf also didn't use projectiles like Ares did making the deflection ability she has unnecessary. Steppenwolf wasn't throwing debris at her. That's Sif, she's not the oridinary Asgardian fodder. She also had trouble with a single Kree fodder. They weren't built up at all. They're only purpose and all they've been shown to do is find against Frost Giant and Dark Elf fodder and come off 50/50. Those Dark Elves were so weak that the one guy killed a couple by smacking them with a car. So it counts for Thanos if he beats up Thor but it doesn't count for Steppenwolf when he beats up Wonder Woman? Bit of favouritism there. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 13, 2018 23:55:29 GMT
Which makes them either weak or poorly written. So then Thor is weak because he was beaten by Hela. No, because she was built up properly. If Steppenwolf had massacred the Amazons or been shown killing a kryptonian in the past it would've made him a proper threat. Instead we get one bit where here's a little stunned by a lightning bolt. Thor was built up properly in his own movies and Ultron was shown getting stronger as time went on. Since we'd never seen a GL before we don't know what they can do in this world. No proper gauging. She could have, it's been argued pretty well. All Superman did was stick him with the spear which anyone could do and was unlucky that DD got one last hit in. Not as bad as DCEU. Why didn't she use all those Godly powers she had at the end of WW in JL, then? She was able to take a direct hit from DD's heat vision thing and dodge several of his attacks and restrain him with her lasso. Steppenwolf is weaker than a Kryptonian, so she should've been able to do all that to him too. She's on par with Elite Asgardian Soldiers at least, and we saw how tough Kree were with Ronan. Take someone like Heimdell or Sif, they're on par with the Elite Asgardian Soldiers (though Heimdell is more powerful than the usual Asgardian, admittedly). Not all the Dark Elves were equal, that's why they needed Kurse. Because Thor will probably get a better showing than WW did, but we'll have to see. |
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 14, 2018 0:15:01 GMT
I already said it before, an Asgardian farmer crumpled a tactical knife in his hand with contemptuous ease. Asgardians are obviously magnitudes stronger than Amazons.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 14, 2018 0:20:55 GMT
I already said it before, an Asgardian farmer crumpled a tactical knife in his hand with contemptuous ease. Asgardians are obviously magnitudes stronger than Amazons. Plus, Sif took a shotgun blast and was hardly stunned by it. |
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Post by scabab on Jan 14, 2018 1:51:36 GMT
No, because she was built up properly. No she wasn't either. On first appearance the first thing she did was overwhelm Thor and Loki. At that point was that not enough to make it clear she was strong? Or by your logic because they hadn't showed that she was strong then does it mean Thor and Loki are weak? That is what he did. Only in the sense that he got a new stronger body. With either body he did nothing to show he was powerful. We only know he's powerful from seeing him overwhelm other powerful characters. Same with Steppenwolf. That doesn't matter. Were familiar with what those characters are capable of in general from other media. We know they're powerful. Just like we all knew Thanos was powerful before he's done anything. That's not beating him with their own power though. Doomsday was first weakened after being hit by Batman's Krypton gas grenade and then he was stabbed through by a Kryptonite spear. That was the only reason he lost. It is, it's actually a lot worse and you can see all conversation on it on the appropriate places that are dedicated to such things like Vsbattles or Comic one. There's really no comparison but again Marvel has over quadruple the amount of films so it's understandable. There was only the one "godly power" which was when she was deflecting the debris. Just like in Batman vs Superman, there was no reason for it to be a thing. That's not fighting equally. She took the Heat Vision thanks to the bracelets which deflect energy and she didn't use the lasso on Steppenwolf. Ronan was exceptional amongst his kind like Thor though. Korath was Kree and Drax easily killed him but couldn't even budge Ronan and even Korath was some mercenary and not some fodder. But Kurse would also be like the equivalent of Thor or Ronan. The average Dark Elf is a match for the average Asgardian. The average one isn't anything special at all from what they've actually shown. |
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Post by scabab on Jan 14, 2018 1:52:32 GMT
I already said it before, an Asgardian farmer crumpled a tactical knife in his hand with contemptuous ease. Asgardians are obviously magnitudes stronger than Amazons. Of course they are. Even the average Asgardian should be more than Captain America can handle. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Jan 14, 2018 1:52:38 GMT
I already said it before, an Asgardian farmer crumpled a tactical knife in his hand with contemptuous ease. Asgardians are obviously magnitudes stronger than Amazons. Plus, Sif took a shotgun blast and was hardly stunned by it. Asgardians, they're hard to perish. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 14, 2018 2:29:52 GMT
No she wasn't either. On first appearance the first thing she did was overwhelm Thor and Loki. At that point was that not enough to make it clear she was strong? And her other appearances helped. Nothing suggested the Amazons or Atlanteans are really that tough, which means it's nothing significant for Steppenwolf to beat them. No, he beat some of them and quickly ran off after the Box. If they wanted to show us how tough he was, he should've taken a nuke to the face and not been affected. Something top-tier like that. Zeus' lightning isn't enough. Which is more than Steppenwolf got. It does. You can't just assume the GL is as powerful as comic GLs are. They'll then prove it with actions. Big difference. Being able to restrain him and dodge hits from him at that level (where he didn't seem affected at all by the grenade) still means she was depowered in JL. I don't see it. Uh, except against the Parademons or Steppenwolf's Axe. And WHY didn't she use the lasso again? And how do we know that Kree was just fodder? The Dark Elves lost the last war handily, remember? They had multiple Kurses even then and still lost. |
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