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Post by cupcakes on Jan 23, 2018 17:42:41 GMT
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Post by Isapop on Jan 23, 2018 17:43:47 GMT
The particulars, bolded or not, are not that important here. My earlier, more general, comment to the OP matters more, which was:
This is Satan: "I am going to mislead as many as I can away from God." This is God: "I'll go ahead and let Satan mislead as many as he can, and punish everyone he deceives."
What there do you say is "incorrect per the text being discussed" and how (if anything)?
Check.So, God, instead of simply vanquishing Satan (well within His power) so that he can not mislead people, God lets Satan continue to (as you put it) express his free will, while God works the other side of the street. I'm not incorrect at all.So, in your theology, God "allows" sinners misled by Satan to go into Hell. Most people regard going to Hell as punishment, even if you don't care to use that word. And since it happens because God has decreed that it SHALL happen, then it's fair to call it God's punishment. My attribution to God, then, may be brief, but still on target.
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Post by Vegas on Jan 23, 2018 17:51:25 GMT
You mean The Watchtower's story, their take on the Bible. No I don't. It's the story. Read a book before you cry about it for years.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 23, 2018 17:57:52 GMT
Is this where i should just keep hounding you for an answer or should I do it in another thread to make it more authentic? Answer to what? Your implausible assertion that you're not aware of my post on your own (and short) thread? You want to take up the question again? Then pull up your thread. So easy even I can do it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 18:24:07 GMT
Check.So, God, instead of simply vanquishing Satan (well within His power) so that he can not mislead people, God lets Satan continue to (as you put it) express his free will, while God works the other side of the street. That is correct. That's your opinion and it's an opinion that doesn't hold up well given proper scrutiny of the text. Not my theology: what the text explicitly states. Yes, this notion is otherwise correct. Understandable. No, it is not fair because this statement is inaccurate. God did not decree that Adam or Eve would go to hell for punishment of sin. He said they would surely die. Then, explicitly, the punishment he does dole out is painful childbirth and a cursed earth that requires some toil. He never once says he has decided they should go to hell. And this is precisely why your attribution to God is still off target.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 23, 2018 18:39:17 GMT
Is this where i should just keep hounding you for an answer or should I do it in another thread to make it more authentic? Answer to what? Your implausible assertion that you're not aware of my post on your own (and short) thread? You want to take up the question again? Then pull up your thread. So easy even I can do it.
I don;t make threads to check them. Further, I have stated at least, without exaggeration, 50 gabillion times that I am under no obligation to respond to anything at anytime so to get all whiny about it does nothing and especially since I know without even looking that whatever you posted is probably silly anyway. I hate wasting time on silly stuff unless I'm the one creating it. But because I'm nice, I'll go look at it sometime today and resist making laughing emoticons as I school you once again on God, religion, life, JW's, and anything else you lack knowledge in.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 23, 2018 18:41:13 GMT
Check.So, God, instead of simply vanquishing Satan (well within His power) so that he can not mislead people, God lets Satan continue to (as you put it) express his free will, while God works the other side of the street. That is correct. That's your opinion and it's an opinion that doesn't hold up well given proper scrutiny of the text. Not my theology: what the text explicitly states. Yes, this notion is otherwise correct. Understandable. No, it is not fair because this statement is inaccurate. God did not decree that Adam or Eve would go to hell for punishment of sin. He said they would surely die. Then, explicitly, the punishment he does dole out is painful childbirth and a cursed earth that requires some toil. He never once says he has decided they should go to hell. And this is precisely why your attribution to God is still off target. You just said it is correct that God "allows" sinners (not speaking of A&E specifically) misled by Satan to go into Hell. That can only happen if God approves it, and cannot happen if God chooses to prevent it. The fate of sinners in under God's ultimate control. Dress it up any way you like, it still amounts to God's punishment.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 23, 2018 18:47:53 GMT
Answer to what? Your implausible assertion that you're not aware of my post on your own (and short) thread? You want to take up the question again? Then pull up your thread. So easy even I can do it.
You did create it. It was your thread and your challenge.I didn't say you are obligated to respond. I said that your silence stands as a tacit concession that your challenge was met. And it does.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 19:56:38 GMT
That is correct. That's your opinion and it's an opinion that doesn't hold up well given proper scrutiny of the text. Not my theology: what the text explicitly states. Yes, this notion is otherwise correct. Understandable. No, it is not fair because this statement is inaccurate. God did not decree that Adam or Eve would go to hell for punishment of sin. He said they would surely die. Then, explicitly, the punishment he does dole out is painful childbirth and a cursed earth that requires some toil. He never once says he has decided they should go to hell. And this is precisely why your attribution to God is still off target. You just said it is correct that God "allows" sinners (not speaking of A&E specifically) misled by Satan to go into Hell. That can only happen if God approves it, and cannot happen if God chooses to prevent it. The fate of sinners in under God's ultimate control. Agree with that, but as a caveat, God - being omnipotent and all - could choose to prevent it, however, he will not make that choice; rather, he allows Satan to make that choice and also/simultaneously, it would be adverse to his very nature to make said choice. I made your comment more specific by adding the bolded part. Now I agree with it.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 23, 2018 20:07:13 GMT
You just said it is correct that God "allows" sinners (not speaking of A&E specifically) misled by Satan to go into Hell. That can only happen if God approves it, and cannot happen if God chooses to prevent it. The fate of sinners in under God's ultimate control. Agree with that, but as a caveat, God - being omnipotent and all - could choose to prevent it, however, he will not make that choice; rather, he allows Satan to make that choice and also/simultaneously, it would be adverse to his very nature to make said choice. I made your comment more specific by adding the bolded part. Now I agree with it. It's not true though, if you believe in a hell that human souls go to, then that is Gods punishment for those souls.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 20:50:39 GMT
Agree with that, but as a caveat, God - being omnipotent and all - could choose to prevent it, however, he will not make that choice; rather, he allows Satan to make that choice and also/simultaneously, it would be adverse to his very nature to make said choice. I made your comment more specific by adding the bolded part. Now I agree with it. It's not true though, if you believe in a hell that human souls go to, then that is Gods punishment for those souls. It's not as simple as it's made to sound. God did not create hell as punishment for humans, per the text. He created hell for Satan and his angels. When Adam and Eve fell, they forfeited their place within the confines of Holiness. When this happened, they fell under the authority of Satan. Think of this as - literally - two warring kingdoms. Let's suppose a merchant's family lived within the borders of a benevolent kingdom. Within the confines of that territory and under its laws, he was allowed to produce, sell, and prosper in peace. One day, the merchant decides to move his family outside the territory of the benevolent kingdom and into the territory of a bordering enemy. He does this, by the way, because the king of the enemy kingdom has shown him that there many more people to sell his wares to, thus the merchant is enticed by greater wealth and greater power. He makes this decision despite warnings from his current king that the evil king the merchant is about to pledge to will bring him nothing but death. Once the merchant and his family land in this malevolent kingdom, he learns its laws: all the progress of his toils are taken by the king or destroyed by the king's men. The merchant's family members are enslaved and routinely beaten. When the merchant's wife complains, who should she complain to? Her husband for choosing to move or the benevolent king for not locking her husband up in chains and instead, allowing him to pursue his wishes? Wouldn't it be illogical of her to blame the benevolent king for not putting the merchant in chains in order to save him from chains?
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Post by gadreel on Jan 23, 2018 21:03:11 GMT
It's not true though, if you believe in a hell that human souls go to, then that is Gods punishment for those souls. It's not as simple as it's made to sound. God did not create hell as punishment for humans, per the text. He created hell for Satan and his angels. When Adam and Eve fell, they forfeited their place within the confines of Holiness. When this happened, they fell under the authority of Satan. Think of this as - literally - two warring kingdoms. Let's suppose a merchant's family lived within the borders of a benevolent kingdom. Within the confines of that territory and under its laws, he was allowed to produce, sell, and prosper in peace. One day, the merchant decides to move his family outside the territory of the benevolent kingdom and into the territory of a bordering enemy. He does this, by the way, because the king of the enemy kingdom has shown him that there many more people to sell his wares to, thus the merchant is enticed by greater wealth and greater power. He makes this decision despite warnings from his current king that the evil king the merchant is about to pledge to will bring him nothing but death. Once the merchant and his family land in this malevolent kingdom, he learns its laws: all the progress of his toils are taken by the king or destroyed by the king's men. The merchant's family members are enslaved and routinely beaten. When the merchant's wife complains, who should she complain to? Her husband for choosing to move or the benevolent king for not locking her husband up in chains and instead, allowing him to pursue his wishes? Wouldn't it be illogical of her to blame the benevolent king for not putting the merchant in chains in order to save him from chains? In your theology who decides if a human soul goes to hell?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 21:10:19 GMT
It's not as simple as it's made to sound. God did not create hell as punishment for humans, per the text. He created hell for Satan and his angels. When Adam and Eve fell, they forfeited their place within the confines of Holiness. When this happened, they fell under the authority of Satan. Think of this as - literally - two warring kingdoms. Let's suppose a merchant's family lived within the borders of a benevolent kingdom. Within the confines of that territory and under its laws, he was allowed to produce, sell, and prosper in peace. One day, the merchant decides to move his family outside the territory of the benevolent kingdom and into the territory of a bordering enemy. He does this, by the way, because the king of the enemy kingdom has shown him that there many more people to sell his wares to, thus the merchant is enticed by greater wealth and greater power. He makes this decision despite warnings from his current king that the evil king the merchant is about to pledge to will bring him nothing but death. Once the merchant and his family land in this malevolent kingdom, he learns its laws: all the progress of his toils are taken by the king or destroyed by the king's men. The merchant's family members are enslaved and routinely beaten. When the merchant's wife complains, who should she complain to? Her husband for choosing to move or the benevolent king for not locking her husband up in chains and instead, allowing him to pursue his wishes? Wouldn't it be illogical of her to blame the benevolent king for not putting the merchant in chains in order to save him from chains? In your theology who decides if a human soul goes to hell? Satan supplies the sufficient force to enact it. Each human who goes to hell chooses not to stop it from happening. God chooses not to stop it from happening.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 23, 2018 21:20:34 GMT
You did create it. It was your thread and your challenge.I didn't say you are obligated to respond. I said that your silence stands as a tacit concession that your challenge was met. And it does. My thread wasn't silly. heck you're taking it very seriously. I was just saying if I'm going to involve myself in something silly, i would want to start it. See the difference? Probably not...
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Post by gadreel on Jan 23, 2018 21:26:08 GMT
In your theology who decides if a human soul goes to hell? Satan supplies the sufficient force to enact it. Each human who goes to hell chooses not to stop it from happening. God chooses not to stop it from happening. So in your theology, through inaction Satan has power over God. Why does God not want to stop it?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 21:53:44 GMT
Satan supplies the sufficient force to enact it. Each human who goes to hell chooses not to stop it from happening. God chooses not to stop it from happening. So in your theology, through inaction Satan has power over God. Why does God not want to stop it? As a sidebar, I don't consider it my theology. I just consider it the blunt contents of the text. But since I know why you are referring to it that way, I will continue to use the phrase. In my theology Satan has power over humanity. God does want to stop it. God chooses not to stop it in total because: free will. Simultaneously, God chooses to reach out to every individual and convince that individual to choose to allow him to stop it, which, also, relates to the respect he has for free will.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 23, 2018 22:02:16 GMT
So in your theology, through inaction Satan has power over God. Why does God not want to stop it? As a sidebar, I don't consider it my theology. I just consider it the blunt contents of the text. But since I know why you are referring to it that way, I will continue to use the phrase. In my theology Satan has power over humanity. God does want to stop it. God chooses not to stop it in total because: free will. Simultaneously, God chooses to reach out to every individual and convince that individual to choose to allow him to stop it, which, also, relates to the respect he has for free will. Surely a benevolent God would see that his subjects did poorly this time around and give them a chance to fix it, that is to say withhold reward as opposed to deliver punishment. Which is what God is doing through inaction. In that way God would still be allowing free will, but not eternally punishing someone for messing up on their first go.
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Post by goz on Jan 23, 2018 22:22:59 GMT
I find that comment both interesting and perceptive. Could you perhaps expand on your view? IMHO this is what life in general is about. It does not preclude either striving for advancement by improving your position in life or errors in judgement which lessens it or fate, which can have a more random effect. My only argument with the statement would be if you attribute those things to a higher power.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 22:39:33 GMT
I find that comment both interesting and perceptive. Could you perhaps expand on your view? IMHO this is what life in general is about. It does not preclude either striving for advancement by improving your position in life or errors in judgement which lessens it or fate, which can have a more random effect. My only argument with the statement would be if you attribute those things to a higher power. All stations in life, even "the rich man's," come with burdens. We cannot choose what society we are born into and we do not choose how we initially fit into that society. And, admittedly, the most controversial part of life according to a Bible apologist such as I is that we cannot control that we are born into a sinful nature. None of us chose that. We'd probably choose otherwise if we could It just is. So when it comes to the parts of life that "just are," it is God's important message to us to tarry in the roles and nature we were born into, remain patient and vigilant, and to make the most good out of it. Obviously a king can do more good than a pauper, but if your destiny is to be a pauper, choose to be the best pauper you can be. One of the best examples of this is, of course, The Parable of the Talents. As for attribution, I personally attribute mine to God and the people in my life who have supported my journey, putting me in place to invest my "talents." The only credit I can give myself is my role in the choosing, and, even that is diminished considering I have an angelic presence cohabiting my conscience, leading me towards certain decisions.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 22:49:14 GMT
As a sidebar, I don't consider it my theology. I just consider it the blunt contents of the text. But since I know why you are referring to it that way, I will continue to use the phrase. In my theology Satan has power over humanity. God does want to stop it. God chooses not to stop it in total because: free will. Simultaneously, God chooses to reach out to every individual and convince that individual to choose to allow him to stop it, which, also, relates to the respect he has for free will. Surely a benevolent God would see that his subjects did poorly this time around and give them a chance to fix it, that is to say withhold reward as opposed to deliver punishment. Which is what God is doing through inaction. In that way God would still be allowing free will, but not eternally punishing someone for messing up on their first go. But this is precisely what the story of the Bible is about. Satan and his angels were told to do one thing. They chose poorly and did the opposite. Then when given authority over the earth and hell, they again chose poorly and did everything they could to ruin humanity. Likewise, Adam and Eve were given an ultimatum. They chose poorly. Then God said, "I'll give you one more chance" and I'll let my Son be the one who does most of the suffering in order to make good on this second chance. So you're absolutely right. A benevolent God did see that some of his subjects did poorly the first time around and gave them a chance to fix it. And he did so - in the case of humans - by withholding a reward (Eden, eternal life in the flesh) and by offering only the smallest of punishments (two forms of hard labor).
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