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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2017 19:58:18 GMT
Stop talking like your side of the argument is fact. It isn't. Um... no, just having articles about something proves nothing. There are articles out there about how the MCU causes homosexuality, too.
And just as many people were already convinced that there is no problem to begin with. The FoX-Men and DCEU boards are over there, hater.
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Post by scabab on Sept 2, 2017 20:06:06 GMT
It sort of is a fact. If you go on Google and type in "Marvel villians are" the most searched for thing ends up being "Marvel villains are weak".
Collider - Marvel Movie Villains Are Weak and Need Serious Fixing
CinemaBlend - The Reason Marvel Villains Are Disappointing, According To Civil War's Writer
Yeah even the writer had to acknowledge it.
Screenrant - The Marvel Cinematic Universe's Movie Villain Problem
Digital Spy - Marvel has a villain problem and here's how to fix it
Variety - George R.R. Martin Has a Problem with Marvel's Movie Villain
So like it, don't like it, it's definitely a thing and for good reason.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 2, 2017 21:29:07 GMT
1) No, what's hard is making the hero an engaging character. 2) Nope, if the hero is engaging enough and entertaining enough then they can hold the interest of the reader/viewer. 3) Apply that to the hero first and foremost. There, that's all you need.^^ so said MCU and others when They created a runaway success, which infuriates people who are puzzled why there are superhero movies out there where the villain isn't the star of the show.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 2, 2017 21:30:25 GMT
There is. Thor is less liked than Loki, although they did do a good job making Thor more than a pristine do-gooder. Logan is probably the ONLY one of the X-Men to get proper characterization compared to how shafted the other X-Men were. And Batman was very much a secondary character IN HIS OWN SERIES. But then again, he was like that for decades in his own comics... Yeah people probably Loki but people still liked Thor. People liked Thor more than Captain America after his first movie, I still remember the polls for it and the Honest Trailers saying Captain America was peoples least favourite...not anymore though. Batman suffered a little bit in the original movies, not the Dark Knight movies because of the focus on the villains. Particularly Batman 89 but again that didn't stop people from still thinking Keaton is one of the best Batman. Doctor Octopus was a good villain in Spider-man 2 where Spider-man had a lot to work with too. There's countless examples outside of superhero movies. Usually they can give perhaps too much screentime to the other secondary characters instead of the villain himself. He suffered a lot in the Dark Knight movies. The villains are much more memorable than him....but then again the comics were like that too for decades. The Raimi Spidey movies are the rare case where the filmmaker cared about the hero actually being the star of the show.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 2, 2017 21:31:48 GMT
It sort of is a fact. If you go on Google and type in "Marvel villians are" the most searched for thing ends up being "Marvel villains are weak". Collider - Marvel Movie Villains Are Weak and Need Serious Fixing CinemaBlend - The Reason Marvel Villains Are Disappointing, According To Civil War's Writer Yeah even the writer had to acknowledge it. Screenrant - The Marvel Cinematic Universe's Movie Villain Problem Digital Spy - Marvel has a villain problem and here's how to fix it Variety - George R.R. Martin Has a Problem with Marvel's Movie Villain So like it, don't like it, it's definitely a thing and for good reason. George Martin said his problem was that the villains usually are guys with the same powers as the hero, not that he thought they were weak villains. And remember, thanks to FOX and DC's past attempts people were so used to the villain being the star with all the real characterization that when MCU did the opposite they were confused by it. That's the main source of the complaints.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Sept 2, 2017 21:46:14 GMT
Loki is feeble. You have to compare him to his inspiration-Terence Stamp in Superman 2--and Hiddleston is no Stamp. He's not even Sarah Douglas who did manage to get some menace in her "what kind of a creature are you?" scene (though her voice was partly dubbed).
All the Marvel villains (except Bridges) are bad. Bridges was good because he helped do his own dialogue and when Tony Stark is having his heart attack Stane is rubbing Stark's flaws in his face (if you weren't so selfish...) etc. It works. But only for that scene.
Compared to Gene Hackman in Superman when he brings out the kryptonite or Stamp or Clarence Boddicker or Robert G Durant in Dark Man, the Marvel villains are just feeble.
I think Heath Ledger's Joker is overrated too though.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 2, 2017 22:00:04 GMT
Loki is feeble. You have to compare him to his inspiration-Terence Stamp in Superman 2--and Hiddleston is no Stamp. He's not even Sarah Douglas who did manage to get some menace in her "what kind of a creature are you?" scene (though her voice was partly dubbed). All the Marvel villains (except Bridges) are bad. Bridges was good because he helped do his own dialogue and when Tony Stark is having his heart attack Stane is rubbing Stark's flaws in his face (if you weren't so selfish...) etc. It works. But only for that scene. Compared to Gene Hackman in Superman when he brings out the kryptonite or Stamp or Clarence Boddicker or Robert G Durant in Dark Man, the Marvel villains are just feeble. So basically, stories where the villain was the real star of the show and drove everything. The traditional, and lazy, way out.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Sept 2, 2017 22:25:11 GMT
Loki is feeble. You have to compare him to his inspiration-Terence Stamp in Superman 2--and Hiddleston is no Stamp. He's not even Sarah Douglas who did manage to get some menace in her "what kind of a creature are you?" scene (though her voice was partly dubbed). All the Marvel villains (except Bridges) are bad. Bridges was good because he helped do his own dialogue and when Tony Stark is having his heart attack Stane is rubbing Stark's flaws in his face (if you weren't so selfish...) etc. It works. But only for that scene. Compared to Gene Hackman in Superman when he brings out the kryptonite or Stamp or Clarence Boddicker or Robert G Durant in Dark Man, the Marvel villains are just feeble. So basically, stories where the villain was the real star of the show and drove everything. The traditional, and lazy, way out. You MCU guys are amazing. You essentially want to make the world believe that MASURBATING or sex with a RUBBER DOLL are the only real ways, and that real sex with a human partner is lazy, traditional and corrupted. No wonder people laugh at you basement dwelling virgins. Your unilateral practices are tailor suited for MCU-lovers as you seem not to have a choice, but please don't embarrass yourself by trying to convert the rest of mankind in believing that utter nonsense.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 2, 2017 22:27:16 GMT
So basically, stories where the villain was the real star of the show and drove everything. The traditional, and lazy, way out. You MCU guys are amazing. You essentially want to make the world believe that MASURBATING or sex with a RUBBER DOLL are the only real ways, and that real sex with a human partner is lazy, traditional and corrupted. No wonder people laugh at you basement dwelling virgins. Your unilateral practices are tailor suited for MCU-lovers as you seem not to have a choice, but please don't embarrass yourself by trying to convert the rest of mankind in believing that utter nonsense. Calm down dude, you're going to bust a gut. Nothing wrong with the hero actually being the star of his/her own movie as opposed to being second fiddle to the villain.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Sept 2, 2017 22:38:22 GMT
You MCU guys are amazing. You essentially want to make the world believe that MASURBATING or sex with a RUBBER DOLL are the only real ways, and that real sex with a human partner is lazy, traditional and corrupted. No wonder people laugh at you basement dwelling virgins. Your unilateral practices are tailor suited for MCU-lovers as you seem not to have a choice, but please don't embarrass yourself by trying to convert the rest of mankind in believing that utter nonsense. Calm down dude, you're going to bust a gut. Nothing wrong with the hero actually being the star of his/her own movie as opposed to being second fiddle to the villain. Likewise dude, stay cool or you're gonna bust your rubber doll. Thumbelina and her four sisters make no house calls tonight I hear. Nothing wrong with the hero actually being the star of his/her own movie and being opposed by a well written villain.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 2, 2017 22:40:22 GMT
Calm down dude, you're going to bust a gut. Nothing wrong with the hero actually being the star of his/her own movie as opposed to being second fiddle to the villain. Nothing wrong with the hero actually being the star of his/her own movie and being opposed by a well written villain. Unfortunately, that's not what FOX and DC have given us. I'll stick with the MCU where they actually care about the hero.
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Post by scabab on Sept 2, 2017 22:40:42 GMT
The villain should never be short changed though. The people problem with the MCU villains is that it's just been done too many.
After so many forgettable villains you kinda want something more. If they could just set the standard for what they did with the Vulture then that'd be a good start.
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 2, 2017 22:49:51 GMT
The villain should never be short changed though. The people problem with the MCU villains is that it's just been done too many. After so many forgettable villains you kinda want something more. If they could just set the standard for what they did with the Vulture then that'd be a good start. But at the same time, the villain should never overshadow the hero. I want to see a Captain America or X-men movie, not see a Zemo or Magneto movie with the hero merely in it. To me, that's the difference between the X-men movies and the MCU. Magneto has overshadowed everyone in those movies. And it's not about great acting or a charismatic actor. They just made the movie lean more over into his direction. For all their faults at least the DCEU has actually gone in that direction in making the movies more about the heroes, also. I'm glad that the MCU villains are "forgettable"*, I'm not there for them. When they make a Whiplash movie, then I'll be there for him. *Are they really forgettable? I remember everything about them.
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 2, 2017 22:54:48 GMT
Nothing wrong with the hero actually being the star of his/her own movie and being opposed by a well written villain. Unfortunately, that's not what FOX and DC have given us. I'll stick with the MCU where they actually care about the hero. The DCEU have been making the movies more about the heroes. The problem is more that the movies themselves aren't good. Lex Luthor had very little in BvS and didn't even have to be in the movie since Batman and Superman would have been fighting each other anyway. But at the same time, you can say that Batman was the villain. If that's the case then they made that movie about the villain. Zod mostly supplemented Kal El and his history. He was there to fill in backstory on his heritage (even if it was kinda scewed). Wonder Woman's villain was just a weasel that really didn't do much, if anything.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 2, 2017 22:57:30 GMT
The villain should never be short changed though. The people problem with the MCU villains is that it's just been done too many. After so many forgettable villains you kinda want something more. If they could just set the standard for what they did with the Vulture then that'd be a good start. The Vulture got the time and development he did because the movie could afford to give him that time. We didn't get a whole origin for Spidey, we're dropping into him after his story has begun. Therefore there's no need to spend time on his origin, trying to make money off it, Ben getting killed, etc. The other characters, they needed their movie to be about them so they could be properly introduced to the audience (Iron Man, Cap, Guardians, Ant-Man, Thor). Thor had it lucky that his villain is also an important continuing character so he wasn't going to be killed off at the end and was allowed to come back and be developed more. As opposed to FOX or DC, where even right from the start the villains are clearly the stars of the show.
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Post by scabab on Sept 2, 2017 23:01:08 GMT
The villain should never be short changed though. The people problem with the MCU villains is that it's just been done too many. After so many forgettable villains you kinda want something more. If they could just set the standard for what they did with the Vulture then that'd be a good start. But at the same time, the villain should never overshadow the hero. I want to see a Captain America or X-men movie, not see a Zemo or Magneto movie with the hero merely in it. To me, that's the difference between the X-men movies and the MCU. Magneto has overshadowed everyone in those movies. And it's not about great acting or a charismatic actor. They just made the movie lean more over into his direction. For all their faults at least the DCEU has actually gone in that direction in making the movies more about the heroes, also. I'm glad that the MCU villains are "forgettable"*, I'm not there for them. When they make a Whiplash movie, then I'll be there for him. *Are they really forgettable? I remember everything about them. You can have a solid Captain America movie and still had a good villain, they achieved that with Winter Soldier just fine didn't they? Infact it only strengthened Captain America's character. Thor had the best villain with Loki who had more screentime than probably any of the other villains but was Thor any worse of a character than Ant-man or Doctor Strange who had so so villains? Spider-man didn't suffer by Vulture being a good villain. The DCEU actually had a good villain with Zod. He was a really solid villain. Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman kinda had the same villain problem as the Marvel movies. Wonder Woman was a good film but Ares was not that great of a villain at all unfortunately.
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Post by DC-Fan on Sept 2, 2017 23:02:07 GMT
Marvel could definitely improve their villains, but their great heroes more than make up for it. Marvel could mend this issue by spreading one villain out over two to three movies. This could still allow the heroes to take center stage, but the villain could be fleshed out over 4-5 hours worth of movie footage instead of 2. Villains can be overrated in movies, but they also make the inevitable pay off when the heroes win far more satisfying. Marvel doesn't have any great heroes because all their villains suck. You can't have any great heroes without great villains.
If you watch WWE TV shows nowadays, they sometimes have marquee matchups on TV - strong heroes vs strong villains. But it wasn't always like this, especially back in the 80s. They would seldom have marquee matchups on TV. Instead, they would usually have a strong hero wrestle a fall guy like the Brooklyn Brawler and have the hero beat the crap out of the Brooklyn Brawler. But fans eventually got tired of those 1-sided matchups so they had to have more marquee matchups (strong heroes vs strong villains) on TV.
That's MCU's problem. They don't have any great villains so all of their heroes look weak because they're never challenged or pushed to the limit. A hero isn't great unless he has a formidable villain to challenge him and push him to the limit. Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker is just a farmboy and not a Jedi Knight who help defeat the Empire and liberate the galaxy.
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Post by formersamhmd on Sept 2, 2017 23:06:47 GMT
Marvel could definitely improve their villains, but their great heroes more than make up for it. Marvel could mend this issue by spreading one villain out over two to three movies. This could still allow the heroes to take center stage, but the villain could be fleshed out over 4-5 hours worth of movie footage instead of 2. Villains can be overrated in movies, but they also make the inevitable pay off when the heroes win far more satisfying. Marvel doesn't have any great heroes because all their villains suck. You can't have any great heroes without great villains. Utter BS, the excuse of every lazy writer ever.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2017 23:15:37 GMT
But at the same time, the villain should never overshadow the hero. I want to see a Captain America or X-men movie, not see a Zemo or Magneto movie with the hero merely in it. To me, that's the difference between the X-men movies and the MCU. Magneto has overshadowed everyone in those movies. And it's not about great acting or a charismatic actor. They just made the movie lean more over into his direction. For all their faults at least the DCEU has actually gone in that direction in making the movies more about the heroes, also. I'm glad that the MCU villains are "forgettable"*, I'm not there for them. When they make a Whiplash movie, then I'll be there for him. *Are they really forgettable? I remember everything about them. You can have a solid Captain America movie and still had a good villain, they achieved that with Winter Soldier just fine didn't they? Infact it only strengthened Captain America's character. Thor had the best villain with Loki who had more screentime than probably any of the other villains but was Thor any worse of a character than Ant-man or Doctor Strange who had so so villains? Spider-man didn't suffer by Vulture being a good villain. The DCEU actually had a good villain with Zod. He was a really solid villain. Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman kinda had the same villain problem as the Marvel movies. Wonder Woman was a good film but Ares was not that great of a villain at all unfortunately. Fine. The Marvel Cinematic Universe is terrible. Completely inferior quality. Everyone who ever liked the series should feel ashamed of themselves for ever having any fondness for it. There. Happy?
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Sept 2, 2017 23:28:53 GMT
So basically, stories where the villain was the real star of the show and drove everything. The traditional, and lazy, way out. No I think Superman was the star of Superman, and that despite having a big star like Hackman there.
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