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Post by gadreel on Feb 6, 2018 17:53:07 GMT
So the parents who are suffering in a famine are not victims? Wow. This question: As for why he does not swoop them all up in a giant whirlwind and transplant them to Willy Wonka's Chocalate Factory where the ground is edible: that's the effect of free will. Beyond the fact that God does not make up the minds of these folks for them, He does constantly work to help salve the stings of their own poor choices, thus, He works within his Body to bring forth generous charity. Yup, that is the pretty standard response, and to be fair it is a hard one, God is capable (in your espoused theology) of making everyone's life perfect, but does not because he wants them to have free will. I wish there was a better argument, it is one of the major flaws of a benevolent omniscient omnipotent God. I still don't know why a being that could know every eventuality would have any requirement to change it's plan though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 17:59:53 GMT
As for why he does not swoop them all up in a giant whirlwind and transplant them to Willy Wonka's Chocalate Factory where the ground is edible: that's the effect of free will. Beyond the fact that God does not make up the minds of these folks for them, He does constantly work to help salve the stings of their own poor choices, thus, He works within his Body to bring forth generous charity. I still don't know why a being that could know every eventuality would have any requirement to change it's plan though. Because He is not purely a logical being. God is emotional.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 6, 2018 18:23:56 GMT
I still don't know why a being that could know every eventuality would have any requirement to change it's plan though. Because He is not purely a logical being. God is emotional. But the act of changing his plan implies that he could not foresee how his plan would work out, unless you are saying that part of Gods omniscience is not knowing how he will feel in the future, which seems strange as God™ is out of time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 19:23:30 GMT
Because He is not purely a logical being. God is emotional. But the act of changing his plan implies that he could not foresee how his plan would work out No, not necessarily. It simply implies that part of his character liked how the plan would have worked out and part of his character - the one we are told per scriptures is his greatest - overruled his first emotional response. No, but that's an interesting idea and the first time I've ever specifically considered that. Hmmmm...well done. Indeed it is and indeed He is. "Changing," is indeed a strange phenomenon to occur where time does not elapse. I readily admit my mind can only grasp at the notion in flashes, much like I can only understand an eternal future in flashes. An eternal beginning is wholly beyond my comprehension, but that's another story.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 6, 2018 19:26:18 GMT
But the act of changing his plan implies that he could not foresee how his plan would work out No, not necessarily. It simply implies that part of his character liked how the plan would have worked out and part of his character - the one we are told per scriptures is his greatest - overruled his first emotional response. No, but that's an interesting idea and the first time I've ever specifically considered that. Hmmmm...well done. Indeed it is and indeed He is. "Changing," is indeed a strange phenomenon to occur where time does not elapse. I readily admit my mind can only grasp at the notion in flashes, much like I can only understand an eternal future in flashes. An eternal beginning is wholly beyond my comprehension, but that's another story. If god is perfect, as we are led to understand in scripture, then it should not change, neither form, nor purpose, nor emotions. A perfect being is immutable.
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 6, 2018 20:02:05 GMT
tpfkar So the parents who are suffering in a famine are not victims? Wow. This question: As for why he does not swoop them all up in a giant whirlwind and transplant them to Willy Wonka's Chocalate Factory where the ground is edible: that's the effect of free will. Beyond the fact that God does not make up the minds of these folks for them, He does constantly work to help salve the stings of their own poor choices, thus, He works within his Body to bring forth generous charity. Why doesn't he just make all with the requisite traits, as he so obviously does some? God & Paul
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 20:08:07 GMT
No, not necessarily. It simply implies that part of his character liked how the plan would have worked out and part of his character - the one we are told per scriptures is his greatest - overruled his first emotional response. No, but that's an interesting idea and the first time I've ever specifically considered that. Hmmmm...well done. Indeed it is and indeed He is. "Changing," is indeed a strange phenomenon to occur where time does not elapse. I readily admit my mind can only grasp at the notion in flashes, much like I can only understand an eternal future in flashes. An eternal beginning is wholly beyond my comprehension, but that's another story. If god is perfect, as we are led to understand in scripture, then it should not change, neither form, nor purpose, nor emotions. A perfect being is immutable. Can't say that I agree with that. The very fact that one of his characteristics is forgiveness belies the opposite.
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 21:15:03 GMT
tpfkar As for why he does not swoop them all up in a giant whirlwind and transplant them to Willy Wonka's Chocalate Factory where the ground is edible: that's the effect of free will. Beyond the fact that God does not make up the minds of these folks for them, He does constantly work to help salve the stings of their own poor choices, thus, He works within his Body to bring forth generous charity. Why doesn't he just make all with the requisite traits, as he so obviously does some? God & PaulWhere would be the fun in that? Having set up an obstacle course for humans where it is endemic that they fail owing allegedly to the original 'sin' of Adam and Eve, God gets to pick out the good guys (ie those who fall for his overtures and promises of eternal life through his son Jesus) It is a tiered system of worthiness as adjudged by God on judgement day.
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 6, 2018 21:28:23 GMT
tpfkar Why doesn't he just make all with the requisite traits, as he so obviously does some? God & PaulWhere would be the fun in that? Having set up an obstacle course for humans where it is endemic that they fail owing allegedly to the original 'sin' of Adam and Eve, God gets to pick out the good guys (ie those who fall for his overtures and promises of eternal life through his son Jesus) It is a tiered system of worthiness as adjudged by God on judgement day. And arbitrarily tainting some and not others. Vagabond
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 22:15:02 GMT
tpfkar Where would be the fun in that? Having set up an obstacle course for humans where it is endemic that they fail owing allegedly to the original 'sin' of Adam and Eve, God gets to pick out the good guys (ie those who fall for his overtures and promises of eternal life through his son Jesus) It is a tiered system of worthiness as adjudged by God on judgement day. And arbitrarily tainting some and not others. VagabondNo, it is not arbitrary. That is the thing! Credit is given MOST to those over whom there is the most power through belief.
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Post by cupcakes on Feb 6, 2018 22:21:32 GMT
tpfkar And arbitrarily tainting some and not others. VagabondNo, it is not arbitrary. That is the thing! Credit is given MOST to those over whom there is the most power through belief. Then they have been given the attribute of having the most belief. The Lord's Prayer
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Post by goz on Feb 6, 2018 22:33:04 GMT
tpfkar No, it is not arbitrary. That is the thing! Credit is given MOST to those over whom there is the most power through belief. Then they have been given the attribute of having the most belief. The Lord's PrayerWell, it would really be a case of what God deems as a 'necessary' or pass mark of belief, I guess!
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Post by general313 on Feb 6, 2018 23:08:03 GMT
So Gad, in asking these questions of a born again Christian who obviously has a different perception of a deterministic 'benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God™' to you, we were recently discussing your perception of God as a creator, what and why is your view so different to Winter's, since you are both Christians> Well I don't really know what his is, he has not answered. I believe that the creator God™ is a bit more removed than most people think, that it started creation and set up certain parameters (what we would call the natural laws) and let the simulation run (for lack of a better word). This is the God™ described in the Old Testament as opposed to the personal saviour God™ described in the New Testament, I am much more cagey about describing what I think of the personal saviour god, at this point I am really talking about God s a creator. Would you say that your ideas align with Deism? I don't know a lot of details but I understand they view God as a mostly remote observer. Apparently the U.S. founding fathers were mostly deists and atheists.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 6, 2018 23:41:38 GMT
If god is perfect, as we are led to understand in scripture, then it should not change, neither form, nor purpose, nor emotions. A perfect being is immutable. Can't say that I agree with that. The very fact that one of his characteristics is forgiveness belies the opposite. Then he cannot be perfect, either he is perfect and a change will make him imperfect, or he was not perfect to begin with. There can be no other way. Just to be clear though forgiveness does not imply change, it implies acceptance of change in others.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 23:51:29 GMT
Can't say that I agree with that. The very fact that one of his characteristics is forgiveness belies the opposite. Just to be clear though forgiveness does not imply change, it implies acceptance of change in others. Sure it does. Before we asked for forgiveness, He held our actions in contempt. Once we as for forgiveness, he no longer holds our actions in contempt.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 6, 2018 23:56:21 GMT
Just to be clear though forgiveness does not imply change, it implies acceptance of change in others. Sure it does. Before we asked for forgiveness, He held our actions in contempt. Once we as for forgiveness, he no longer holds our actions in contempt. Then please refer to the issue of a perfect being changing.
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Post by gadreel on Feb 6, 2018 23:59:24 GMT
Well I don't really know what his is, he has not answered. I believe that the creator God™ is a bit more removed than most people think, that it started creation and set up certain parameters (what we would call the natural laws) and let the simulation run (for lack of a better word). This is the God™ described in the Old Testament as opposed to the personal saviour God™ described in the New Testament, I am much more cagey about describing what I think of the personal saviour god, at this point I am really talking about God s a creator. Would you say that your ideas align with Deism? I don't know a lot of details but I understand they view God as a mostly remote observer. Apparently the U.S. founding fathers were mostly deists and atheists. Yeah yes and no. I have tried to make it clear that i percieve two faces of God, the creator and the personal saviour. I am discussing the creator here, but yeah largely speaking I believe that they creation force (god™) started the whole thing off and for any number of reasons is not or will not change the parameters of creation. This means we have thunderstorms and death and disease. I actually think my views align more with Christianity in the hermetic or mystical sense.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 0:03:21 GMT
Sure it does. Before we asked for forgiveness, He held our actions in contempt. Once we ask for forgiveness, he no longer holds our actions in contempt. Then please refer to the issue of a perfect being changing. <smh> I just did when I said, "Sure it does. Before we asked for forgiveness, He held our actions in contempt. Once we ask for forgiveness, he no longer holds our actions in contempt. "
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Post by gadreel on Feb 7, 2018 0:12:55 GMT
Then please refer to the issue of a perfect being changing. <smh> I just did when I said, "Sure it does. Before we asked for forgiveness, He held our actions in contempt. Once we ask for forgiveness, he no longer holds our actions in contempt. " I meant this issue:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 15:54:29 GMT
<smh> I just did when I said, "Sure it does. Before we asked for forgiveness, He held our actions in contempt. Once we ask for forgiveness, he no longer holds our actions in contempt. " I meant this issue: I'm not sure how evolution equates to imperfection. He's not a computer or a robot with some kind of programming that we can say is going haywire if it changes. He's an emotional, sentient being who operates within a similar construct as any other sentient, emotional being. Let's say I were to decide to give some money to charity. Let's say I decide I'm going to write a check for $500. That would be good. Let's say I change my mind and decide to give $1,000 instead. That's better. But does it negate the goodness of my original plan?
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