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Post by Isapop on Jan 29, 2018 17:35:43 GMT
It isn't even really viewed as being sentient. Ephesians 4:30 - "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God"
One must be sentient in order to feel grief. If the Holy Spirit can be grieved, isn't that scripture viewing the Holy Spirit as sentient?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 17:47:45 GMT
I would agree that he does not have the "appearance" of a human. I would say the same about the Father as well. I don't think the Father and the Spirit are things you can exactly "see." The Son is the member of the Trinity that is the visual representative of the Father. Okay. So then what is he? By the way, I think he actually did appear as a human, but I do not think that is his "true nature." He's an indwelling spirit.
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Post by cupcakes on Jan 29, 2018 17:50:54 GMT
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Post by Isapop on Jan 29, 2018 17:54:03 GMT
Not only is that illogical, it is also self-defeating. When a believer is unwilling to answer a valid question from a non-believer, it only demonstrates to all the weakness of the believer's position. But suit yourself.
It was not an argument; it was a question. And it was a question that any theology student might ask of his teacher. No, my question is just my question. And if I were going to shift the goal posts, that would become evident with any additional responses, and reflect poorly on me. But your projection is just a poor attempt to camouflage your unwillingness to deal with a valid question.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:01:04 GMT
I'm definitely in the camp that says the Holy Spirit has sentience. I'm not so sure I'm still in the camp that says the Force has sentience. Since TLJ came out, I no longer consider Disney Wars in my head canon, so the idea of the Force as a sentient character is back to being a debatable mystery. People have said the Holy Spirit has talked to them, which implies sentience. I haven't really made up my mind on it. Still collating. I have been spoken to by the Holy Spirit. It's happened twice. I can only hope it happens again.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:02:05 GMT
Okay. So then what is he? By the way, I think he actually did appear as a human, but I do not think that is his "true nature." He's an indwelling spirit. But this only occurs after the death of Christ. What was he before that?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:04:32 GMT
It was not an argument; it was a question. And it was a question that any theology student might ask of his teacher. No, my question is just my question. And if I were going to shift the goal posts, that would become evident with any additional responses, and reflect poorly on me. But your projection is just a poor attempt to camouflage your unwillingness to deal with a valid question. Wrong. I am unwilling to deal with questions from non-believers on this topic, thus, the reason I included it in my original post. How could I be camouflaging an unwillingness to deal with a valid question when I hadn't even been asked a question yet?
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Post by general313 on Jan 29, 2018 18:06:15 GMT
People have said the Holy Spirit has talked to them, which implies sentience. I haven't really made up my mind on it. Still collating. I have been spoken to by the Holy Spirit. It's happened twice. I can only hope it happens again. What was it like?
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Post by Isapop on Jan 29, 2018 18:09:21 GMT
It was not an argument; it was a question. And it was a question that any theology student might ask of his teacher. No, my question is just my question. And if I were going to shift the goal posts, that would become evident with any additional responses, and reflect poorly on me. But your projection is just a poor attempt to camouflage your unwillingness to deal with a valid question. Just one more note, regarding these words of yours: "I consider it perfectly logical to dismiss any argument from a non-believer". (Even though mine was a question.) YOU might regard it as perfectly logical, but it is in fact a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as "Ad hominem", where you judge an argument by the person who offers it rather the substance of the argument itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:11:23 GMT
He's an indwelling spirit. But this only occurs after the death of Christ. What was he before that? I think that's what he always was. He was the Spirit that existed within the Father and the Son. I don't think there was ever a "change" in his form of existence. He just exists within the Church now too. The Father and the Son shared with the Church the same Spirit that they previously shared with each other.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 29, 2018 18:14:30 GMT
Not only is that illogical, it is also self-defeating. When a believer is unwilling to answer a valid question from a non-believer, it only demonstrates to all the weakness of the believer's position. But suit yourself.
I consider it perfectly logical to dismiss any argument from a non-believer when it pertains to a very specific, complicated thing like I am asking. And if by "unwilling to answer a valid question from a non-believer" you meant "unwilling to answer several dozen questions whilst the goal line shifts more and more off topic," then I'm not concerned with how it makes me look. If you actually had one question, I would answer it, but you don't. No matter what I answer with (since I am believer and since my answer will come from that perspective), you will only continue to ask questions until either you're sick of typing, I'm sick of typing or your question has driven us wildly off-topic. Most likely the latter two. I'm looking for edifying communication. I am not interested in your challenges. As a theist, I do not understand this stance, Other peoples viewpoints and discussions are valuable to help me with my faith, especially opposing views. Why would you post here an not expect to get challenged? and why is being challenged not edifying?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:14:57 GMT
I have been spoken to by the Holy Spirit. It's happened twice. I can only hope it happens again. What was it like? The first time, a little jarring. I contemplated it for weeks. And then I obeyed the command I was given. The second time it was awesome, because it was not jarring; it was familiar. And I obeyed the command that time immediately.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 29, 2018 18:15:53 GMT
The first time, a little jarring. I contemplated it for weeks. And then I obeyed the command I was given. The second time it was awesome, because it was not jarring; it was familiar. And I obeyed the command that time immediately. How did you know for certain it was the holy spirit?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:17:05 GMT
It was not an argument; it was a question. And it was a question that any theology student might ask of his teacher. No, my question is just my question. And if I were going to shift the goal posts, that would become evident with any additional responses, and reflect poorly on me. But your projection is just a poor attempt to camouflage your unwillingness to deal with a valid question. Just one more note, regarding these words of yours: "I consider it perfectly logical to dismiss any argument from a non-believer". (Even though mine was a question.) YOU might regard it as perfectly logical, but it is in fact a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as "Ad hominem", where you judge an argument by the person who offers it rather the substance of the argument itself.
Uh huh. Please answer the question: how could I be camouflaging an unwillingness to deal with a valid question when I hadn't been asked a question yet?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:19:31 GMT
The first time, a little jarring. I contemplated it for weeks. And then I obeyed the command I was given. The second time it was awesome, because it was not jarring; it was familiar. And I obeyed the command that time immediately. How did you know for certain it was the holy spirit? Initially, the context. Later, the results.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 29, 2018 18:22:12 GMT
How did you know for certain it was the holy spirit? Initially, the context. Later, the results. Was there any sort of independant review you could do? I am asking this because all sorts of people have done all sorts of horrible things because 'God told them to' I wonder how much of the evidence you had was impacted by personal bias. Are you willing to discuss the evidence in more detail?
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Post by Vegas on Jan 29, 2018 18:23:28 GMT
It isn't even really viewed as being sentient. Ephesians 4:30 - "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God"
One must be sentient in order to feel grief. If the Holy Spirit can be grieved, isn't that scripture viewing the Holy Spirit as sentient?
Not a bad argument... But: One also says that a person grieves the judicial system... ..That doesn't really make it a living thing. The whole chapter is about unifying the Christian congregation as a whole... How to be united. The verses in question deal with slander and other grievances.: The Holy Spirit is the power that is supposed to keep the congregation together... any act of defiance can be a grievance to that power. It doesn't really have to be sentient and feel grief to be grieved.
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Post by Isapop on Jan 29, 2018 18:24:44 GMT
Just one more note, regarding these words of yours: "I consider it perfectly logical to dismiss any argument from a non-believer". (Even though mine was a question.) YOU might regard it as perfectly logical, but it is in fact a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as "Ad hominem", where you judge an argument by the person who offers it rather the substance of the argument itself.
Uh huh. Please answer the question: how could I be camouflaging an unwillingness to deal with a valid question when I hadn't been asked a question yet? That's obvious. You set up your defense in advance, hoping to ward off any question from a non-believer, whether or not the question might be valid.
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Post by general313 on Jan 29, 2018 18:35:24 GMT
The first time, a little jarring. I contemplated it for weeks. And then I obeyed the command I was given. The second time it was awesome, because it was not jarring; it was familiar. And I obeyed the command that time immediately. Did you actually hear a voice or was it more of a non-verbal sort of communication?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 18:39:44 GMT
Uh huh. Please answer the question: how could I be camouflaging an unwillingness to deal with a valid question when I hadn't been asked a question yet? That's obvious. You set up your defense in advance, hoping to ward off any question from a non-believer, whether or not the question might be valid. Hmmm...sounds like I had some reason to predict something. Nonetheless, ha, you are correct. I did indeed hope to ward off questions from non-believers. And yet, here we are. And it's not that I mind quelling the curiosity of the respectful non-believer. I just don't see what a non-believer can add to the discussion when this is a notion so complicated that most believers can't or won't qualify.
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