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Post by Vassaggo on Feb 26, 2018 21:52:20 GMT
T'Challa was thrown off the edge of a waterfall and it was just a lucky fluke that he didn't die and was found (although the movie never explains how he was found in the mountains with no river around when he was thrown off the edge of a waterfall).That's never stated in the movie so you can't assume that. The only thing that's known for sure in the movie is that such a barbaric and savage ritual of choosing a King by bloodshed and mortal combat is part of Wakandan law and is normal for Wakandans. This is a valid criticism to the film, use more of these things to moan about, to some it's trivial but atleast it is a fair point, same for why doesn't T'Challa shut down Killmonger's BS about Klaue by pointing out Killmonger was the one who broke Klaue free from them, seeing how Killmonger turns up with the same ring T'Challa saw and wearing the same get up sans mask as he was wearing in said breakout, hell why does W'Kabi yield rather than fight Okoye at the end of the fight when he was ordering his men to crush the Dora Milaje using their shields prior to M'Baku's arrival, he has no qualms killing her then but now he does?
The film is not without issues so why the hell do you choose to hang your hat on such stupid crap like that in this thread? or the assumptive crap of your "plot hole" thread?
I've tried to point this out to him. It's always more effective if your trolling, sorry unbiased criticism is based in fact. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Feb 26, 2018 22:44:16 GMT
He had a valid war dog tattoo and his father’s ceremonial ring. Zuri also confirmed his existence by admitting his culpability in the Prince’s murder by T’Chaka. He could've stolen the tattoo and the ring like he stole the artifact from the museum. Killmonger was a thief so shouldn't dumb-ass T'Challa at least have a DNA test to make sure. Then again, we know from the barbaric and savage mortal combat ritual that Wakanda prefers a King who has the most brute strength over a King who is the smartest. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 26, 2018 22:54:19 GMT
He had a valid war dog tattoo and his father’s ceremonial ring. Zuri also confirmed his existence by admitting his culpability in the Prince’s murder by T’Chaka. He could've stolen the tattoo and the ring like he stole the artifact from the museum. Killmonger was a thief so shouldn't dumb-ass T'Challa at least have a DNA test to make sure. Then again, we know from the barbaric and savage mortal combat ritual that Wakanda prefers a King who has the most brute strength over a King who is the smartest. He wouldn't have known about Wakandan traditions without the secret notes his father left behind. The ring, the Tattoo, the knowledge of Wakanda AND the High Priest vouching for him is enough. And their traditions is because their very real God said to do so. Ignoring that won't change anything. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Feb 26, 2018 22:57:52 GMT
He could've stolen the tattoo and the ring like he stole the artifact from the museum. Killmonger was a thief so shouldn't dumb-ass T'Challa at least have a DNA test to make sure. Then again, we know from the barbaric and savage mortal combat ritual that Wakanda prefers a King who has the most brute strength over a King who is the smartest. He wouldn't have known about Wakandan traditions without the secret notes his father left behind. The ring, the Tattoo, the knowledge of Wakanda He could've stolen the notes as well. |
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Post by damngumby on Feb 26, 2018 23:09:40 GMT
I'm not a troll. I really am this stupid. I never doubted it for a moment. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 26, 2018 23:24:23 GMT
He had a valid war dog tattoo and his father’s ceremonial ring. Zuri also confirmed his existence by admitting his culpability in the Prince’s murder by T’Chaka. He could've stolen the tattoo and the ring like he stole the artifact from the museum. Killmonger was a thief so shouldn't dumb-ass T'Challa at least have a DNA test to make sure. Then again, we know from the barbaric and savage mortal combat ritual that Wakanda prefers a King who has the most brute strength over a King who is the smartest. How exactly do you steal a tattoo? T’Challa did not know that Erik was a thief. Accepting a challenge on the honor system doesn’t make you bloodthirsty or stupid. T’Challa likely accepted the challenge to defeat an interloper, royal or not, and remove all doubt of his claim to the throne. To decline would have weakened his position in the eyes of the council should Erik have been proven a rightful heir - which the movie established that he is. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Feb 27, 2018 0:11:11 GMT
He could've stolen the tattoo and the ring like he stole the artifact from the museum. Killmonger was a thief so shouldn't dumb-ass T'Challa at least have a DNA test to make sure. Then again, we know from the barbaric and savage mortal combat ritual that Wakanda prefers a King who has the most brute strength over a King who is the smartest. How exactly do you steal a tattoo? Anybody can copy a tattoo. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 27, 2018 0:12:15 GMT
He wouldn't have known about Wakandan traditions without the secret notes his father left behind. The ring, the Tattoo, the knowledge of Wakanda He could've stolen the notes as well. The odds are greater that he really is just T'Challa's cousin. Anyways, if they did a DNA test you'd just say he could've had it faked. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 27, 2018 0:12:36 GMT
How exactly do you steal a tattoo? Anybody can copy a tattoo. How would he have learned about Wakandan tattoos? |
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Post by DC-Fan on Feb 27, 2018 0:15:18 GMT
Anybody can copy a tattoo. How would he have learned about Wakandan tattoos? He could've learned them from the uncle's real son. Remember that the son was playing basketball outside when T'Chaka killed his father. So the son could've had close friends that he hangs out with. Any 1 of them could've found out the information from the son and copied the tattoo and stolen the notes. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Feb 27, 2018 0:17:09 GMT
How would he have learned about Wakandan tattoos? He could've learned them from the uncle's real son. No, the real son wouldn't have done something that stupid. Of course, you'd complain about the DNA test results too. This was better done than Ares in Wonder Woman. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 27, 2018 0:25:42 GMT
How exactly do you steal a tattoo? Anybody can copy a tattoo. Those Wakandan tattoos appeared to be semi-holographic with a similar glow to their vibranium tech. Are you certain it can be easily copied? |
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Post by dazz on Feb 27, 2018 1:35:00 GMT
Anybody can copy a tattoo. Those Wakandan tattoos appeared to be semi-holographic with a similar glow to their vibranium tech. Are you certain it can be easily copied? Too be fair DC-Fan brings up a point here, they just take Killmonger's word and assume no foul play is at hand in his claim, but as the MCU has established a degree of Wakandan culture is known to some, the chances of an orphaned child prince would possibly inform others of his culture and significances of certain cultural tradition s is not unfathomable, this is an issue that is easily solved if someone demanded Killmonger's claim be proven maybe the queen mother or Shuri demand his blood be tested, it is after all a nation capable of healing life threatening and paralysis causing gunshots overnight surely a blood test would be a piece of piss for them, and to get around this all T'Challa has to say is enough and he accepts the challenge even if the claimant is not yet proven to be of rightful blood.
As for copying the tat maybe by 92 standards it was unfakeable but by 2016-18 maybe it is possible, seeing how Killmonger had Klaue and Klaue had vibranium if vibranium was used in the tat Killmonger could have forged the tattoo also, the issue here is because we know Killmonger's claim is real it seems pointless but in terms of actual logic questioning his claim is what makes sense, so DC fan has a point and it's not outside of possibility that Killmonger could have been lying, this is the thing the films got logic or narrative issues throughout though not to a degree it ruins the film but like every CBM it has holes and some of them are more obvious than others, atleast DC-Fans switched to a valid issue to complain about... 
You earned this buddy.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 27, 2018 1:54:25 GMT
Those Wakandan tattoos appeared to be semi-holographic with a similar glow to their vibranium tech. Are you certain it can be easily copied? Too be fair DC-Fan brings up a point here, they just take Killmonger's word and assume no foul play is at hand in his claim, but as the MCU has established a degree of Wakandan culture is known to some, the chances of an orphaned child prince would possibly inform others of his culture and significances of certain cultural tradition s is not unfathomable, this is an issue that is easily solved if someone demanded Killmonger's claim be proven maybe the queen mother or Shuri demand his blood be tested, it is after all a nation capable of healing life threatening and paralysis causing gunshots overnight surely a blood test would be a piece of piss for them, and to get around this all T'Challa has to say is enough and he accepts the challenge even if the claimant is not yet proven to be of rightful blood.
As for copying the tat maybe by 92 standards it was unfakeable but by 2016-18 maybe it is possible, seeing how Killmonger had Klaue and Klaue had vibranium if vibranium was used in the tat Killmonger could have forged the tattoo also, the issue here is because we know Killmonger's claim is real it seems pointless but in terms of actual logic questioning his claim is what makes sense, so DC fan has a point and it's not outside of possibility that Killmonger could have been lying, this is the thing the films got logic or narrative issues throughout though not to a degree it ruins the film but like every CBM it has holes and some of them are more obvious than others, atleast DC-Fans switched to a valid issue to complain about...
You earned this buddy.
You’ve reasoned this out far better than DC-Fan did. As such one can entertain the idea that some form of testing would have been a good precaution. But, let’s look at the other side of this issue. So what if he was a fake? Honestly, if I were King I might be concerned that people would think he does have a real claim if I didn’t accept the challenge immediately. Accepting without full verification costs T’Challa nothing. Refusing on the grounds of “testing” results could be construed as weakness and it might invite more challenges. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Feb 27, 2018 3:08:57 GMT
Too be fair DC-Fan brings up a point here, they just take Killmonger's word and assume no foul play is at hand in his claim, but as the MCU has established a degree of Wakandan culture is known to some, the chances of an orphaned child prince would possibly inform others of his culture and significances of certain cultural tradition s is not unfathomable, this is an issue that is easily solved if someone demanded Killmonger's claim be proven maybe the queen mother or Shuri demand his blood be tested, it is after all a nation capable of healing life threatening and paralysis causing gunshots overnight surely a blood test would be a piece of piss for them, and to get around this all T'Challa has to say is enough and he accepts the challenge even if the claimant is not yet proven to be of rightful blood.
As for copying the tat maybe by 92 standards it was unfakeable but by 2016-18 maybe it is possible, seeing how Killmonger had Klaue and Klaue had vibranium if vibranium was used in the tat Killmonger could have forged the tattoo also, the issue here is because we know Killmonger's claim is real it seems pointless but in terms of actual logic questioning his claim is what makes sense, so DC fan has a point and it's not outside of possibility that Killmonger could have been lying, this is the thing the films got logic or narrative issues throughout though not to a degree it ruins the film but like every CBM it has holes and some of them are more obvious than others, atleast DC-Fans switched to a valid issue to complain about...
You earned this buddy.
Accepting without full verification costs T’Challa nothing. Refusing on the grounds of “testing” results could be construed as weakness and it might invite more challenges. It's the opposite. Accepting Killmonger's claim without any verification invites anyone else to make a similar claim, knowing that they won't be called to verify the claim with DNA testing. So anyone can claim "Your uncle had another son that even the King didn't know about and I'm the 2nd son". |
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Post by dazz on Feb 27, 2018 3:12:00 GMT
Too be fair DC-Fan brings up a point here, they just take Killmonger's word and assume no foul play is at hand in his claim, but as the MCU has established a degree of Wakandan culture is known to some, the chances of an orphaned child prince would possibly inform others of his culture and significances of certain cultural tradition s is not unfathomable, this is an issue that is easily solved if someone demanded Killmonger's claim be proven maybe the queen mother or Shuri demand his blood be tested, it is after all a nation capable of healing life threatening and paralysis causing gunshots overnight surely a blood test would be a piece of piss for them, and to get around this all T'Challa has to say is enough and he accepts the challenge even if the claimant is not yet proven to be of rightful blood.
As for copying the tat maybe by 92 standards it was unfakeable but by 2016-18 maybe it is possible, seeing how Killmonger had Klaue and Klaue had vibranium if vibranium was used in the tat Killmonger could have forged the tattoo also, the issue here is because we know Killmonger's claim is real it seems pointless but in terms of actual logic questioning his claim is what makes sense, so DC fan has a point and it's not outside of possibility that Killmonger could have been lying, this is the thing the films got logic or narrative issues throughout though not to a degree it ruins the film but like every CBM it has holes and some of them are more obvious than others, atleast DC-Fans switched to a valid issue to complain about...
You earned this buddy.
You’ve reasoned this out far better than DC-Fan did. As such one can entertain the idea that some form of testing would have been a good precaution. But, let’s look at the other side of this issue. So what if he was a fake? Honestly, if I were King I might be concerned that people would think he does have a real claim if I didn’t accept the challenge immediately. Accepting without full verification costs T’Challa nothing. Refusing on the grounds of “testing” results could be construed as weakness and it might invite more challenges. Oh I agree that's why I said have Shuri or his mother demand his lineage be proven but T'Challa accept the challenge, even have him say he takes what Zuri says to be true, then have a short scene where his mother &/or Shuri question his choice but he says he will not refuse a challenge, and that if he fails but Killmonger is proven a liar Shuri knows what to do, play it off a little give T'Challa a little more confidence, give us another moment between brother & sister and give a reason behind T'Challa's rashness, it would take a minute and add a little more to the fight and stop T'Challa's behaviour seeming needlessly foolish.
One thing I think though they should have had more meaning behind T'Challa's agreeing to the fight, like he agree's but doesn't intend to kill Killmonger instead wanting to defeat him but welcome his cousin home after, make T'Challa maybe a little more naïve and making choices based on the wrong intention, such as he wants to amend the mistake of his father rather than protect the interest of Wakanda, so that when he fights Killmonger later and deals the fatale blow it shows him accepting his role more, and also his offer to help Killmonger and show him the sunset for Killmonger to refuse him and rather die a king than live as his prisoner can have more impact and give T'Challa more purpose in the film, as it was and has been pointed out by others far smarter & more eloquent than myself T'Challa is the weakest part of the film which isn't saying much as so many parts of the film are great, but his arc is kind of whether he is or isn't king but not about what being King means to him, and I think this would have added more to his arc but I dunno maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by DC-Fan on Feb 27, 2018 3:15:22 GMT
Those Wakandan tattoos appeared to be semi-holographic with a similar glow to their vibranium tech. Are you certain it can be easily copied? Too be fair DC-Fan brings up a point here, they just take Killmonger's word and assume no foul play is at hand in his claim, but as the MCU has established a degree of Wakandan culture is known to some, the chances of an orphaned child prince would possibly inform others of his culture and significances of certain cultural tradition s is not unfathomable, this is an issue that is easily solved if someone demanded Killmonger's claim be proven maybe the queen mother or Shuri demand his blood be tested, it is after all a nation capable of healing life threatening and paralysis causing gunshots overnight surely a blood test would be a piece of piss for them, and to get around this all T'Challa has to say is enough and he accepts the challenge even if the claimant is not yet proven to be of rightful blood.
As for copying the tat maybe by 92 standards it was unfakeable but by 2016-18 maybe it is possible, seeing how Killmonger had Klaue and Klaue had vibranium if vibranium was used in the tat Killmonger could have forged the tattoo also, the issue here is because we know Killmonger's claim is real it seems pointless but in terms of actual logic questioning his claim is what makes sense, so DC fan has a point and it's not outside of possibility that Killmonger could have been lying, this is the thing the films got logic or narrative issues throughout though not to a degree it ruins the film but like every CBM it has holes and some of them are more obvious than others, atleast DC-Fans switched to a valid issue to complain about...
You earned this buddy.
Yes, it's a very valid plothole. It never occurred to dumb-ass T'Challa to think, "Well, Klaue worked with my uncle 25 years ago and this guy just helped Klaue escape from our custody. Maybe Klaue came up with this scheme to have this imposter pretend to be my cousin and challenge for the throne and this imposter feels that he doesn't need Klaue anymore so he kills Klaue and goes ahead with Klaue's fake scheme for him to challenge for the throne." But like I said, Wakandans prefer a King who has the most brute strength rather than a King who is the smartest so they get a dumb-ass like T'Challa, who just says "OK. We'll take your word for it. No DNA test needed." |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Feb 27, 2018 3:16:21 GMT
Accepting without full verification costs T’Challa nothing. Refusing on the grounds of “testing” results could be construed as weakness and it might invite more challenges. It's the opposite. Accepting Killmonger's claim without any verification invites anyone else to make a similar claim, knowing that they won't be called to verify the claim with DNA testing. So anyone can claim "Your uncle had another son that even the King didn't know about and I'm the 2nd son". No, weakness and hesitation invites challenge and conflict. A fast acceptance and takedown would be far more likely to discourage future frivolous challenges. That's human nature. Nobody is seen as strong because they waited a couple days for the Maury Povich style paternity test. Now can we talk about your racism and bias against African culture and black people? I think we need some clarity around that issue. |
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Post by dazz on Feb 27, 2018 3:20:49 GMT
Accepting without full verification costs T’Challa nothing. Refusing on the grounds of “testing” results could be construed as weakness and it might invite more challenges. It's the opposite. Accepting Killmonger's claim without any verification invites anyone else to make a similar claim, knowing that they won't be called to verify the claim with DNA testing. So anyone can claim "Your uncle had another son that even the King didn't know about and I'm the 2nd son". Again valid point, as it is the challenge is meant to seemingly only be applicable by members of royal blood, so the tribal leaders or members of the ruling family, if anyone can claim what's the point of the royal bloodline?
Only counter to this is if his blood had been tested and it not match then he would not be recognised as king and Shuri as next in line would be queen, we saw that once T'Challa was shown alive how quick the Dora Milaje recognised the fallacy of his claim to be king, a failed blood test would amount to the same thing, even with T'Challa alive they didn't turn though until Killmonger refused to honour the challenge there by dqing himself and in their mind making T'Challa their king once more, but had his blood not matched he wouldn't be heir to the throne regardless of victory or not, but as no blood test was done at all had he been lying there was no way for them to rove it, and he was allowed to do as he pleased.
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Post by DC-Fan on Feb 27, 2018 3:26:09 GMT
It's the opposite. Accepting Killmonger's claim without any verification invites anyone else to make a similar claim, knowing that they won't be called to verify the claim with DNA testing. So anyone can claim "Your uncle had another son that even the King didn't know about and I'm the 2nd son". No, weakness and hesitation invites challenge and conflict. A fast acceptance and takedown would be far more likely to discourage future frivolous challenges. That's human nature. Nobody is seen as strong because they waited a couple days for the Maury Povich style paternity test. Nope, you're wrong again. Fast acceptance without any verification invites more challenges. Stricter verification eliminates more challenges. If an unmarried Wakandan woman claims that a married Wakandan man is the father of her child and wants child support but he isn't really the father of her child, accepting her claim without verification would invite every other woman to make similar unsubstantiated claims. By verifying the claim, it would result in fewer claims because they know they'll be exposed as fakes. |
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