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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 14:44:21 GMT
This Oz team are dirty cheating bastards. Last year's Ashes seriously questionable now. Seems wrong carrying on the SA test. The self confessed cheats didn't even want to stand down. Cricket Australia forced them to. Sponsors already said to be considering pulling out of Oz cricket. Eh, Aussies would have walloped us easily either way.
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Post by Father Jack on Mar 25, 2018 14:57:52 GMT
This Oz team are dirty cheating bastards. Last year's Ashes seriously questionable now. Seems wrong carrying on the SA test. The self confessed cheats didn't even want to stand down. Cricket Australia forced them to. Sponsors already said to be considering pulling out of Oz cricket. Eh, Aussies would have walloped us easily either way. We'll never know for sure. We'll never know for sure. The doubt is there now, it can't be put away.
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Post by weststigersbob on Mar 25, 2018 15:41:48 GMT
Are people seriously that naive to think that ball tampering doesn’t happen ?
The only thing that has happened here is that Australia got caught.
Every side, to varying degrees, tampers with the ball. This is absolutely no different at to when Marcus Trescothick slipped over and a handful of lollies came out of his pocket. Everybody knew exactly what they were for.
Smith will cop a week, probably won’t captain Australia again. And, honestly, anything more than that is dramatically over the top.
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Post by Father Jack on Mar 25, 2018 15:48:57 GMT
Are people seriously that naive to think that ball tampering doesn’t happen ? The only thing that has happened here is that Australia got caught. Every side, to varying degrees, tampers with the ball. This is absolutely no different at to when Marcus Trescothick slipped over and a handful of lollies came out of his pocket. Everybody knew exactly what they were for. Smith will cop a week, probably won’t captain Australia again. And, honestly, anything more than that is dramatically over the top. The Old Lance Armstrong 'Everybody cheats' excuse. For shame... it didn't cut the mustard for him then, and it doesn't for Cricket Australia now.
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Post by weststigersbob on Mar 25, 2018 16:56:07 GMT
Are people seriously that naive to think that ball tampering doesn’t happen ? The only thing that has happened here is that Australia got caught. Every side, to varying degrees, tampers with the ball. This is absolutely no different at to when Marcus Trescothick slipped over and a handful of lollies came out of his pocket. Everybody knew exactly what they were for. Smith will cop a week, probably won’t captain Australia again. And, honestly, anything more than that is dramatically over the top. The Old Lance Armstrong 'Everybody cheats' excuse. For shame... it didn't cut the mustard for him then, and it doesn't for Cricket Australia now. There is a massive difference between a systematic regime of injections of drugs to boost performance and a system of avoidance for it to go undetected to.......rubbing dirt on a ball. That being said, It’s not the Lance Armstrong defence at all. Its been admitted to, up front. It’s now about a suitable level of reaction and punishment for a minor crime, and the sanctimony that has occurred since this story broke. You do realise that that the opposing captain - Faf du Plessis - has been caught TWICE ball tampering. Where is the calls for South Africa to be kicked out of cricket ? Where is the comparison between Faf and Lance ? Where is the talk of lifetime bans ? Where is the talk of how this a national disgrace comparable to apartheid ? Could it be, simply, that because Australia has been so strident in the face of all forms of cheating that when they are caught with their hand in the cookie jar - there is a more of a reaction because of it ?
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Post by Father Jack on Mar 25, 2018 17:10:23 GMT
The Old Lance Armstrong 'Everybody cheats' excuse. For shame... it didn't cut the mustard for him then, and it doesn't for Cricket Australia now. There is a massive difference between a systematic regime of injections of drugs to boost performance and a system of avoidance for it to go undetected to.......rubbing dirt on a ball. That being said, It’s not the Lance Armstrong defence at all. Its been admitted to, up front. It’s now about a suitable level of reaction and punishment for a minor crime, and the sanctimony that has occurred since this story broke. You do realise that that the opposing captain - Faf du Plessis - has been caught TWICE ball tampering. Where is the calls for South Africa to be kicked out of cricket ? Where is the comparison between Faf and Lance ? Where is the talk of lifetime bans ? Where is the talk of how this a national disgrace comparable to apartheid ? Could it be, simply, that because Australia has been so strident in the face of all forms of cheating that when they are caught with their hand in the cookie jar - there is a more of a reaction because of it ? 📣BOO! Jim Maxwell is a broken man.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2018 18:55:36 GMT
I'm more interested in hearing what's an acceptable punishment for blatant ball-tampering than a half-defense of "everybody does it."
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Post by hoskotafe3 on Mar 25, 2018 20:27:40 GMT
I think I've made it pretty clear what I think the punishment should be. Lollies and such: a fine. Foreign object: 1 match ban.
The interesting one is Smith. In his case the tampering is secondary to the far bigger issue of his endorsing the most junior player in the side doing something illegal that he wasn't willing to do himself. For that, I'm not against stripping him of the captaincy entirely.
On the idea that this is due to Australia's stridence on the issue in the past: most of the criticism is coming from Australia, not the rest of the world. It's Australians calling for Smith and Warner to be stepped down, saying the team is a national disgrace and some asking for lifetime bans. From the rest of the world I'm seeing mainly bemusement at the shambolism of the whole operation.
Another problem for Smith is he was already seen as one of the biggest sooks in international cricket. And that's a big part of the reason why, in spite of record breaking runs and a 65 average, the Australian public has never really warmed to him. He's now also going to be seen as a cheat and a hypocrite by the Oz public.
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Mar 26, 2018 2:15:32 GMT
cricinfo says SMITH and WARNER could be banned for life. that is too harsh.
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Post by weststigersbob on Mar 26, 2018 4:09:06 GMT
I think I've made it pretty clear what I think the punishment should be. Lollies and such: a fine. Foreign object: 1 match ban. The interesting one is Smith. In his case the tampering is secondary to the far bigger issue of his endorsing the most junior player in the side doing something illegal that he wasn't willing to do himself. For that, I'm not against stripping him of the captaincy entirely. On the idea that this is due to Australia's stridence on the issue in the past: most of the criticism is coming from Australia, not the rest of the world. It's Australians calling for Smith and Warner to be stepped down, saying the team is a national disgrace and some asking for lifetime bans. From the rest of the world I'm seeing mainly bemusement at the shambolism of the whole operation. Another problem for Smith is he was already seen as one of the biggest sooks in international cricket. And that's a big part of the reason why, in spite of record breaking runs and a 65 average, the Australian public has never really warmed to him. He's now also going to be seen as a cheat and a hypocrite by the Oz public. The first 2 paragraphs - I 100% concur. My sentiments exactly. As for overreaction: It’s Australia and it’s Cricket. I’m not surprised by the reactions globally. I’ve seen quite a few Brits and Asians (horrible term) go completely off the reservation over this. Smith’s position as captain is completely untenable, as is Warner’s. But lifetime bans ? Please. As for the how the team and/or certain players are perceived: I think it’s about time Australia as a whole stops with the “We are squeaky clean” bullshit across the board, but especially in cricket. We play tough and hard, and right up to the edge of fairness and legality. Occasionally, premeditated or otherwise, that line gets stepped over. In this instance, it’s a toenail, not an entire foot. But let’s cut out the shit that we never cross the line, nor drop ten tonnes of shit on those that also occasionally slip.
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Mar 26, 2018 4:20:36 GMT
For the benefit of someone whose knowledge of cricket is limited to what he could glean from conversations with the natives on a couple of visits to India and Australia, could somebody explain what this tampering consists of, and how it confers an advantage to the team doing it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 4:40:23 GMT
And a serious question from another ignoramus here, why are bowlers allowed to rub the ball on their leg? Surely that is ball tampering too? The red stains on their white trousers are a bit of a giveaway, are they not?
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Post by weststigersbob on Mar 26, 2018 5:29:14 GMT
The following is the exact rules as per the Laws of Cricket :
41.3 THE MATCH BALL – CHANGING ITS CONDITION
41.3.1 The umpires shall make frequent and irregular inspections of the ball. In addition, they shall immediately inspect the ball if they suspect anyone of attempting to change the condition of the ball, except as permitted in 41.3.2.
41.3.2 It is an offence for any player to take any action which changes the condition of the ball.
Except in carrying out his/her normal duties, a batsman is not allowed to wilfully damage the ball. See also Law 5.5 (Damage to the ball).
A fielder may, however
41.3.2.1 polish the ball on his/her clothing provided that no artificial substance is used and that such polishing wastes no time.
41.3.2.2 remove mud from the ball under the supervision of an umpire.
41.3.2.3 dry a wet ball on a piece of cloth that has been approved by the umpires.
41.3.3 The umpires shall consider the condition of the ball to have been unfairly changed if any action by any player does not comply with the conditions in 41.3.2.
41.3.4 If the umpires consider that the condition of the ball has been unfairly changed by a member or members of either side, they shall ask the captain of the opposing side if he/she would like the ball to be replaced. If necessary, in the case of the batting side, the batsmen at the wicket may deputise for their captain.
41.3.4.1 If a replacement ball is requested, the umpires shall select and bring into use immediately, a ball which shall have wear comparable to that of the previous ball immediately prior to the contravention.
41.3.4.2 Regardless of whether a replacement ball has been chosen to be used, the bowler's end umpire shall
- award 5 Penalty runs to the opposing side.
- if appropriate, inform the batsmen at the wicket and the captain of the fielding side that the ball has been changed and the reason for their action.
- inform the captain of the batting side as soon as practicable of what has occurred.
The umpires together shall report the occurrence as soon as possible after the match to the Executive of the offending side and to any Governing Body responsible for the match, who shall take such action as is considered appropriate against the captain, any other individuals concerned and, if appropriate, the team.
The umpires together shall report the occurrence as soon as possible after the match to the Executive of the offending side and to any Governing Body responsible for the match, who shall take such action as is considered appropriate against the captain, any other individuals concerned and, if appropriate, the team.
41.3.5 If the umpires agree that in the match there has been any further instance by that team of unfairly changing the condition of the ball, they shall
41.3.5.1 repeat the procedure in 41.3.4.1 and 41.3.4.2.
If the further offence is committed by the fielding side, additionally the bowler's end umpire shall
41.3.5.2 - direct the captain of the fielding side to suspend immediately from bowling the bowler who delivered the preceding ball; he/she shall not be allowed to bowl again in the match.
- inform the batsmen at the wicket and, as soon as practicable, the captain of the batting side of the reason for the action.
if necessary, the over shall be completed by another bowler, who shall neither have bowled any part of the previous over, nor be allowed to bowl any part of the next over.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 5:42:59 GMT
My own opinion, I would issue lifetime bans for any kind of premeditated cheating in sport, that's doping, ball tampering etc. But obviously you need to warn competitors first, it wouldn't be fair to ban someone for life before you've given them ample warning that "this is what's going to happen if you do x". The cheats should also face the criminal justice system, I think charging them for fraud would be fair. I don't see why not, the guy who cheated on "Who Wants To Be a Millionaire?" got a 6 month suspended sentence for fraud, so if you can get done on a gameshow why not in sport too?
The more opportunistic cheating, like diving, I would also come down hard on, lengthy bans, 6-8 matches, then for persistent offenders who maybe get caught 4 or 5 times over an eight year period, lifetime ban, you're out, career finished.
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Post by Father Jack on Mar 26, 2018 7:43:08 GMT
For the benefit of someone whose knowledge of cricket is limited to what he could glean from conversations with the natives on a couple of visits to India and Australia, could somebody explain what this tampering consists of, and how it confers an advantage to the team doing it? A piece of sticky tape used to put some 'tack' on one side of the ball. This then picks up tiny grit off the pitch, creating an artificial rough hemisphere on the ball. This creates enough drag to get the ball to swing more than it should. You're allowed to polish one side of the ball on your clothes. Anything else is ball tampering. This instance is compounded by the fact that this time it is a pre-meditated team leadership deliberate conspiracy to cheat. Believed that the team coach (Darren Lehmann) realised they had been rumbled, relayed a message to the 12th man to tell the bowler to hide the evidence. The bowler then tried to hide the tape down his underpants.
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Post by weststigersbob on Mar 26, 2018 13:16:08 GMT
For the benefit of someone whose knowledge of cricket is limited to what he could glean from conversations with the natives on a couple of visits to India and Australia, could somebody explain what this tampering consists of, and how it confers an advantage to the team doing it? A piece of sticky tape used to put some 'tack' on one side of the ball. This then picks up tiny grit off the pitch, creating an artificial rough hemisphere on the ball. This creates enough drag to get the ball to swing more than it should. You're allowed to polish one side of the ball on your clothes. Anything else is ball tampering. This instance is compounded by the fact that this time it is a pre-meditated team leadership deliberate conspiracy to cheat. Believed that the team coach (Darren Lehmann) realised they had been rumbled, relayed a message to the 12th man to tell the bowler to hide the evidence. The bowler then tried to hide the tape down his underpants. The tape was used to pick up dirt and debris and form a type of “sandpaper”, which was rubbed against one side of the ball. The effect of having one hemisphere of the ball roughened and the other hemisphere polished smooth is to enhance the ball curving through the air when bowled. The pre-meditated deliberate conspiracy is total bollocks. All ball tampering is a conspiracy. Everyone on the team and all the coaches know it’s happening. To pretend otherwise is naive in the extreme. Do you honestly think that players ‘go rogue’ and tamper with the ball, especially without the knowledge of the bowlers ? Please. In this instance, instead of allowing a singular player (Bancroft) to fall on his own sword, Smith and Warner owned up to it. That’s the truly bizarre thing. Usually it’s lie lie, deny deny.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2018 0:10:16 GMT
The more opportunistic cheating, like diving, I would also come down hard on, lengthy bans, 6-8 matches, then for persistent offenders who maybe get caught 4 or 5 times over an eight year period, lifetime ban, you're out, career finished. If your diving earned a penalty that was converted, and it's only evident after the game that it was a blatant dive, that goal is retrospectively disallowed and the result amended accordingly. So that douche who just did a swan dive that we saw in the other thread, I think that was the winning goal in a 2-1 result, so the result is changed to a draw and he gets banned for six games.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2018 0:10:52 GMT
cricinfo says SMITH and WARNER could be banned for life. that is too harsh. Sidenote: Warner's a headcase isn't he? Great bat, but he needs to switch to decaf.
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Post by hoskotafe3 on Mar 27, 2018 1:46:25 GMT
"They are all cheating.
You can't have special pleading that my cheating isn't as bad as your cheating. That's ridiculous.
You knowingly break the rules of fair competition to cheat your opponents, the fans, and people having a punt. Whether that's by doping or ball tampering is irrelevant."
That's your opinion, and thank God you're not a judge if you use the same approach to criminal law.
Ball tampering in cricket is on the same grading as offering an obscene gesture. Maximum fine is a one game suspension. There are many crimes in cricket that are more perceived as being more serious than ball tampering. People have been banned for life for throwing matches and sent to jail fot spot fixing. Ball tampering doesn't carry the same penalty because it's a significantly lesser offence. To equate it with doping is, frankly, ludicrous.
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Post by hoskotafe3 on Mar 27, 2018 1:58:56 GMT
Warner is a little boy who never grew up. His antics, particularly from someone who only fires one gamw in eveey 4 or 5, impress no one. No way will he and Smith receive life time bans, but I'm beginning to think we may not see Smith until the Australian summer at the earliest, and possibly not until this time next year.
The public backlash has been so big that they'll try to provide a major scalp and changing the coach probably won't cut it. With a TV deal being negotiated CA will be as harsh as they need to in order to appease broadcasters, particularly with CA claiming that broadcasters were low balling them with initial offers. They need to raise their stocks fast, and if a 12 month ban on Smith, Warner or both will achieve this then it will happen.
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