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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 27, 2018 1:14:24 GMT
No, it does not depend on who Bucky surrenders to. Bucky stole Erskine's super soldier formula during the commissioning of the murders - the serum is classified and falls under the umbrella of national security. If you can't speak to Bucky's motive for the killings, which was to steal the serum, you can't fairly try him in open civilian court. Local jurisdictional authority would likely be superseded. Maria and Howard Stark were operating as agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. transporting highly classified government materials which Bucky stole and handed over to enemy agents. There's no way this isn't a Federal case. No, that's not true. The D.A. can still prosecute Bucky for the killings in state criminal court. You seem to have forgotten that there's a videotape of Bucky committing the killings. So the D.A. has all the evidence he needs to prove to a jury that Bucky committed the killings and doesn't need to enter into evidence the secret super soldier PED. The only question in the murder case is whether Bucky was "brainwashed" (as he and Cap claim) and if so, then whether that "brainwashing" is enough to either absolve Bucky of all responsibility for the killings or merely just reduce his responsibilities for the killings from murder to manslaughter. The video tape was in the possession of Zemo until near the end of the film. He had the only copy of the footage. How would the D.A. even have gotten it? Zemo wouldn’t have leaked it because that would have derailed his plans. Steve had to delay turning Bucky in until they could secure the footage to ensure Bucky’s fair trial. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 27, 2018 1:59:13 GMT
No, that's not true. The D.A. can still prosecute Bucky for the killings in state criminal court. You seem to have forgotten that there's a videotape of Bucky committing the killings. So the D.A. has all the evidence he needs to prove to a jury that Bucky committed the killings and doesn't need to enter into evidence the secret super soldier PED. The only question in the murder case is whether Bucky was "brainwashed" (as he and Cap claim) and if so, then whether that "brainwashing" is enough to either absolve Bucky of all responsibility for the killings or merely just reduce his responsibilities for the killings from murder to manslaughter. The video tape was in the possession of Zemo until near the end of the film. He had the only copy of the footage. How would the D.A. even have gotten it? Zemo wouldn’t have leaked it because that would have derailed his plans. Steve had to delay turning Bucky in until they could secure the footage to ensure Bucky’s fair trial. Zemo would've leaked the videotape. Zemo's whole plan was for Tony Stark to see the videotape of Bucky killing his parents. If Cap had brought Bucky in and surrendered, then Cap, Bucky, and Tony aren't at the base in Siberia. So Zemo would've had to leak the videotape in order for Tony to see the videotape. The videotape would've been uploaded to the Internet so the D.A. would've been able to download a copy of the videotape and that would give him all the evidence he needed to prove that Bucky committed the killings and wouldn't need to introduce any evidence of any secret super soldier PED. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 27, 2018 2:01:40 GMT
The video tape was in the possession of Zemo until near the end of the film. He had the only copy of the footage. How would the D.A. even have gotten it? Zemo wouldn’t have leaked it because that would have derailed his plans. Steve had to delay turning Bucky in until they could secure the footage to ensure Bucky’s fair trial. Zemo would've leaked the videotape. Zemo's whole plan was for Tony Stark to see the videotape of Bucky killing his parents. If Cap had brought Bucky in and surrendered, then Cap, Bucky, and Tony aren't at the base in Siberia. So Zemo would've had to leak the videotape in order for Tony to see the videotape. The videotape would've been uploaded to the Internet so the D.A. would've been able to download a copy of the videotape and that would give him all the evidence he needed to prove that Bucky committed the killings and wouldn't need to introduce any evidence of any secret super soldier PED. Zemo would not have leaked the tape prior to the Avengers killing one or more of their own team members or he would have leaked it way earlier in the film if that was the case and the DA would have had it then. But he never leaked it! |
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 27, 2018 2:05:37 GMT
Zemo would've leaked the videotape. Zemo's whole plan was for Tony Stark to see the videotape of Bucky killing his parents. If Cap had brought Bucky in and surrendered, then Cap, Bucky, and Tony aren't at the base in Siberia. So Zemo would've had to leak the videotape in order for Tony to see the videotape. The videotape would've been uploaded to the Internet so the D.A. would've been able to download a copy of the videotape and that would give him all the evidence he needed to prove that Bucky committed the killings and wouldn't need to introduce any evidence of any secret super soldier PED. Zemo would not have leaked the tape prior to the Avengers killing one or more of their own team members or he would have leaked it way earlier in the film if that was the case and the DA would have had it then. But he never leaked it! Zemo did leak the videotape prior to the Avengers killing 1 or more of their own team members. Which Avenger was killed before Zemo showed the videotape to Tony Stark? Also, if Cap and Bucky surrendered, then there would be no reason for Zemo to hold onto the videotape so it would be logical for Zemo to leak the videotape at that point so that Tony could see that Bucky killed his parents, which was the whole point of showing the videotape to Tony. But then, MCU has never been known to follow logic so maybe Zemo would do the most illogical thing ever just because the script needs it. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 27, 2018 2:18:20 GMT
Zemo would not have leaked the tape prior to the Avengers killing one or more of their own team members or he would have leaked it way earlier in the film if that was the case and the DA would have had it then. But he never leaked it! Zemo did leak the videotape prior to the Avengers killing 1 or more of their own team members. Which Avenger was killed before Zemo showed the videotape to Tony Stark? Also, if Cap and Bucky surrendered, then there would be no reason for Zemo to hold onto the videotape so it would be logical for Zemo to leak the videotape at that point so that Tony could see that Bucky killed his parents, which was the whole point of showing the videotape to Tony. But then, MCU has never been known to follow logic so maybe Zemo would do the most illogical thing ever just because the script needs it. He only showed the tape then because he wouldn't have had a chance to escape and release it later. You really need to pay attention and stop asking to be spoonfed, ken. And anyways Bucky was just going to be kept locked up without a real trial. He was never going to be treated fairly. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 27, 2018 2:22:35 GMT
Zemo did leak the videotape prior to the Avengers killing 1 or more of their own team members. Which Avenger was killed before Zemo showed the videotape to Tony Stark? Also, if Cap and Bucky surrendered, then there would be no reason for Zemo to hold onto the videotape so it would be logical for Zemo to leak the videotape at that point so that Tony could see that Bucky killed his parents, which was the whole point of showing the videotape to Tony. But then, MCU has never been known to follow logic so maybe Zemo would do the most illogical thing ever just because the script needs it. He only showed the tape then because he wouldn't have had a chance to escape and release it later. You really need to pay attention and stop asking to be spoonfed, ken. And anyways Bucky was just going to be kept locked up without a real trial. He was never going to be treated fairly. , see, Sam was clearly paying attention. Zemo NEVER leaked the tape! Zemo is steady NOT leaking! He didn't leak the tape because he had not completed his plan. He tried to kill himself without leaking the tape. That means only Cap, Bucky and T'Challa had access to the tape afterwards. They would have not leaked it either. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 31, 2018 3:14:56 GMT
Military tribunals are still subject to the rights guaranteed in the US Constitution and Bucky would still be entitled to be represented by a lawyer. And it doesn't even have to be a military lawyer. If Bucky wanted to be represented by a civilian lawyer, he has that right. So Tony Stark could've hired the best civilian lawyer available to defend Bucky. the most significant nail in the coffin of your argument is this; would Tony have paid the legal fees for the man who killed his parents? Nope, it's not a nail in the coffin. Cap and Bucky claim that Bucky was brainwashed. If true, then that would mean someone brainwashed and ordered Bucky to kill Howard and Maria Stark. That would mean Bucky was just an assassin carrying out someone else's orders. So if true, then whoever brainwashed and ordered Bucky to kill Howard and Maria Stark are also guilty of their murders. Wouldn't Tony want all of the responsible parties caught and punished for killing his parents? Cap could say "Tony, here's the deal. Bucky will surrender peacefully and you agree to hire the best lawyer available for Bucky and in return, Bucky will provide evidence and testimony against the people who brainwashed and ordered him to kill your parents." |
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 3:34:58 GMT
the most significant nail in the coffin of your argument is this; would Tony have paid the legal fees for the man who killed his parents? Nope, it's not a nail in the coffin. Cap and Bucky claim that Bucky was brainwashed. If true, then that would mean someone brainwashed and ordered Bucky to kill Howard and Maria Stark. That would mean Bucky was just an assassin carrying out someone else's orders. So if true, then whoever brainwashed and ordered Bucky to kill Howard and Maria Stark are also guilty of their murders. Wouldn't Tony want all of the responsible parties caught and punished for killing his parents? Cap could say "Tony, here's the deal. Bucky will surrender peacefully and you agree to hire the best lawyer available for Bucky and in return, Bucky will provide evidence and testimony against the people who brainwashed and ordered him to kill your parents." All the truly responsible people were dead, Bucky was the only one left and in Tony's mental state (as he is written as a flawed human, rather than a 1-Note do-gooder like Superman) he'd go after whoever he could. So yeah, once again your argument fails. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 3:35:40 GMT
Zemo would not have leaked the tape prior to the Avengers killing one or more of their own team members or he would have leaked it way earlier in the film if that was the case and the DA would have had it then. But he never leaked it! Zemo did leak the videotape prior to the Avengers killing 1 or more of their own team members. Only because by then he had no choice. Seriously, pay attention to things before you start your ramblings. |
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Post by politicidal on Apr 1, 2018 18:37:53 GMT
#BuckysLifeMatters!
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Post by DC-Fan on May 18, 2018 2:45:44 GMT
Military tribunals are still subject to the rights guaranteed in the US Constitution and Bucky would still be entitled to be represented by a lawyer. And it doesn't even have to be a military lawyer. If Bucky wanted to be represented by a civilian lawyer, he has that right. So Tony Stark could've hired the best civilian lawyer available to defend Bucky. Bucky stole Erskine's super soldier formula during the commissioning of the murders - the serum is classified and falls under the umbrella of national security. If you can't speak to Bucky's motive for the killings, which was to steal the serum, you can't fairly try him in open civilian court. Let's also assume they found ways around the restrictions surrounding the presentation of evidence tied to concerns of national security. There are no national security concerns. Black Widow already released all the HYDRA files in Winter Soldier so the super soldier serum isn't a secret since the whole world knows about it. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 18, 2018 5:23:30 GMT
Bucky stole Erskine's super soldier formula during the commissioning of the murders - the serum is classified and falls under the umbrella of national security. If you can't speak to Bucky's motive for the killings, which was to steal the serum, you can't fairly try him in open civilian court. Let's also assume they found ways around the restrictions surrounding the presentation of evidence tied to concerns of national security. There are no national security concerns. Black Widow already released all the HYDRA files in Winter Soldier so the super soldier serum isn't a secret since the whole world knows about it. That was an unofficial leak not coorborated or sanctioned by the government. The SSS is still a secret until officially revealed to the public via the Freedom of Information Act. And Nat’s leaks don’t have the Erskine formula - only he knew it. Hydra’s version was corrupted. There is still a security concern at play.+ DC characters suck ass and are failing hard right now. Wonder Woman can’t prop them up forever. She needs relief. Make it happen. |
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Post by Skaathar on May 18, 2018 5:24:20 GMT
Looks like someone didn't watch the movies again. Bucky was never to be brought to trial. The orders were to kill him on sight. The only reason that he was even brought in was because Cap and Black Panther were in the way. And once Bucky escaped, Cap was then on a countdown timer to stop the rest of the winter soldiers from being activated.
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Post by damngumby on May 18, 2018 12:26:03 GMT
Looks like someone didn't watch the movies again. Bucky was never to be brought to trial. The orders were to kill him on sight. The only reason that he was even brought in was because Cap and Black Panther were in the way. And once Bucky escaped, Cap was then on a countdown timer to stop the rest of the winter soldiers from being activated. This is just another one of DC-Frauds dumb arguments that he refuses to let go. In a world of enhanced humans, secret councils and underwater super prisons, there is zero chance Bucky would have been turned over to the criminal justice system for due process. Zero Let me repeat that so even the Fraud can understand ... ZEROZ ... E ... R ... OAny of this sinking in yet, cupcake? Even in this world, we have places like Guantanamo Bay to deal with people the authorities consider to be too dangerous to treat like a common criminal. If the Fraud can not (or will not) explain why due process is circumvented with the Guantanamo Bay terrorists of this world, but it wouldn't with Bucky in the Avengers world, then he loses the argument. For good.... and please refrain from linking to vandalized Wikipedia articles to support your argument. Thank you. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 18, 2018 15:20:41 GMT
In the world portrayed in the MCU, there was zero chance Bucky was going to get a fair trial. Zero. It was so obvious, even a dumb kid could figure it out. Why can’t you? Because unlike you, comrade, DC-Fan's allegiance is to the Republic -- to democracy! |
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Post by Power Ranger on May 18, 2018 15:26:16 GMT
If Bucky was sent to Guantanamo, he wouldn’t get a trial. But Cap has no problem detaining Batroc despite the fact that he ended up at a black ops prison.
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Post by damngumby on May 18, 2018 15:51:23 GMT
In the world portrayed in the MCU, there was zero chance Bucky was going to get a fair trial. Zero. It was so obvious, even a dumb kid could figure it out. Why can’t you? Because unlike you, comrade, DC-Fan 's allegiance is to the Republic -- to democracy! That's an interesting theory for why DC-Fraud can't figure out the obvious ... when even a dumb kid could. Allegiance to democracy makes you stupid? Is that your final answer? |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 18, 2018 16:27:05 GMT
Because unlike you, comrade, DC-Fan 's allegiance is to the Republic -- to democracy! That's an interesting theory for why DC-Fraud can't figure out the obvious ... when even a dumb kid could. Allegiance to democracy makes you stupid? Is that your final answer? Chomsky |
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on May 19, 2018 7:05:55 GMT
Bucky violently and brutally killed 2 civilians. Steve Rogers thinks that his best friend Bucky shouldn't be held responsible for those killings because he was brainwashed. But that's a matter for a jury to decide. If Steve Rogers thinks that Bucky shouldn't be held responsible because he was brainwashed, then he can have a lawyer argue that in front of a jury. And in Civil War, it was 100% guaranteed that Bucky was getting a trial by jury. Because Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through the streets in public. So there were many witnesses who saw Bucky arrested, which would guarantee a trial for Bucky. In White Nights, at the end of the movie Mikhail Baryshnikov and Isabella Rossellini were in a diplomatic car on their way to the US Embassy in Moscow while the Soviets were in pursuit when their car got in a traffic accident 1 block from the entrance to the US Embassy. One of the embassy representatives (Lionel Luthor) knew that there were press from around the world inside the US Embassy waiting for Baryshnikov to show up so he told Baryshnikov to walk towards the embassy and make sure that he was seen by the press. Because if the international press saw that Baryshnikov was alive, then there was no way the Soviets could cover that up. Likewise in Civil War, since there were many witnesses who saw Bucky arrested in public, there was no way that the government could cover up Bucky's arrest. And since the press loves to cover big trials, the press would've demanded access to cover the trial of the most wanted terrorist in the world. So despite the claims by MCU fans that Bucky wasn't getting a trial, the fact was Bucky was 100% guaranteed a trial by jury. Moreover, there was no reason at all for any conflict or any airport "fight" in Civil War. Because even if Bucky wasn't arrested in public, Steve Rogers could've easily guaranteed a trial for Bucky. All Steve Rogers had to do was call Tony Stark and say "Tony, we're friends and teammates. I'll surrender Bucky at a time and place of my choosing if you give me your word as a friend and an Avenger that Bucky will be arrested without any harm and that you'll pay for the best team of lawyers available to defend Bucky in court". Then after Tony agrees to those terms, Steve chooses a public location for Bucky's surrender and then leaks the time and place for Bucky's surrender to the press so there'll be plenty of press to witness Bucky's public surrender. Then that would've guaranteed that the government couldn't cover up Bucky's arrest and would've guaranteed that Bucky would get a trial by jury. But the reason Steve Rogers didn't do that was because Steve Rogers didn't want Bucky to have a trial. Why didn't Steve Rogers allow Bucky to have a trial? The only plausible explanation is that Steve Rogers believes that he and Bucky and the rest of the Avengers are superior to normal people and thus should rule over normal people like Kings rather than be judged by normal people. So lazy to respond to all of this, but I'd have to say because Civil War just.. doesn't make a lot of sense. I love the MCU, but you won't find me re-watching Civil War too often. I re-watch the airport sequence ALL THE TIME because it's one of my favorite comic book movie sequences of ever, up there with No Man's Land, in my opinion.
But it never made much sense to me what Steve did. Not that I disagreed with him, I just didn't understand how there wasn't another way. It seems like Tony and the rest of the Avengers would've helped him if he was willing to sign the Sokovia Accords. Like "Hey, I'll sign and convince the others, if you help me prove Bucky's innocence." Seems like a good solution.
I also thought that Tony's actions didn't make any sense because it seems like there is no way he wouldn't do exactly the same for Rhodey if in the same position.
I don't know what it is about Civil War.. there are many moments I like.. but I just felt like the storyline and the character behaviors didn't hold together well at all.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 19, 2018 17:07:12 GMT
I'm not defending Caps actions in regards to Bucky. I agree that he went WAY too far in defending him. At a certain point he should have allowed Bucky to be apprehended; after all, brainwashed or not, he did kill people.
On the other hand I can also see why Steve would want to help the guy. Bucky is his best friend and the one guy who stood up for him all the time. And the brainwashing thing is a pretty strong mitigating circumstance. One could make a strong argument, especially with the proof available, that a brainwashed person is not the villain in the piece, but rather the ones who DID the brainwashing.
That's what I liked about the movie... the notion that right and wrong weren't black and white, but rather shades of grey. And that's a difficult thing for a "black and white" guy like Cap to have to deal with.
For me the deepest part of the movie is when Tony asks if he knew, and Cap, being who he is, has to answer honestly, and says yes. |
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