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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 26, 2018 3:25:05 GMT
Bucky violently and brutally killed 2 civilians. Steve Rogers thinks that his best friend Bucky shouldn't be held responsible for those killings because he was brainwashed. But that's a matter for a jury to decide. If Steve Rogers thinks that Bucky shouldn't be held responsible because he was brainwashed, then he can have a lawyer argue that in front of a jury.
And in Civil War, it was 100% guaranteed that Bucky was getting a trial by jury. Because Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through the streets in public. So there were many witnesses who saw Bucky arrested, which would guarantee a trial for Bucky.
In White Nights, at the end of the movie Mikhail Baryshnikov and Isabella Rossellini were in a diplomatic car on their way to the US Embassy in Moscow while the Soviets were in pursuit when their car got in a traffic accident 1 block from the entrance to the US Embassy. One of the embassy representatives (Lionel Luthor) knew that there were press from around the world inside the US Embassy waiting for Baryshnikov to show up so he told Baryshnikov to walk towards the embassy and make sure that he was seen by the press. Because if the international press saw that Baryshnikov was alive, then there was no way the Soviets could cover that up.
Likewise in Civil War, since there were many witnesses who saw Bucky arrested in public, there was no way that the government could cover up Bucky's arrest. And since the press loves to cover big trials, the press would've demanded access to cover the trial of the most wanted terrorist in the world. So despite the claims by MCU fans that Bucky wasn't getting a trial, the fact was Bucky was 100% guaranteed a trial by jury.
Moreover, there was no reason at all for any conflict or any airport "fight" in Civil War. Because even if Bucky wasn't arrested in public, Steve Rogers could've easily guaranteed a trial for Bucky. All Steve Rogers had to do was call Tony Stark and say "Tony, we're friends and teammates. I'll surrender Bucky at a time and place of my choosing if you give me your word as a friend and an Avenger that Bucky will be arrested without any harm and that you'll pay for the best team of lawyers available to defend Bucky in court".
Then after Tony agrees to those terms, Steve chooses a public location for Bucky's surrender and then leaks the time and place for Bucky's surrender to the press so there'll be plenty of press to witness Bucky's public surrender. Then that would've guaranteed that the government couldn't cover up Bucky's arrest and would've guaranteed that Bucky would get a trial by jury.
But the reason Steve Rogers didn't do that was because Steve Rogers didn't want Bucky to have a trial. Why didn't Steve Rogers allow Bucky to have a trial? The only plausible explanation is that Steve Rogers believes that he and Bucky and the rest of the Avengers are superior to normal people and thus should rule over normal people like Kings rather than be judged by normal people.
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Post by sostie on Mar 26, 2018 9:09:58 GMT
Bucky violently and brutally killed 2 civilians. Steve Rogers thinks that his best friend Bucky......yada yada yada...the usual crap Hmmmm. How very interesting. You should seriously consider writing some screenplays. They'd be fucking shit of course, but will help getting it all out of your system,. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 26, 2018 15:25:01 GMT
This all assumes that Bucky would have been tried as a civilian which, the more I think about it, the less likely that seems. James Buchanan Barnes holds the rank of Sergeant in the US Army. He assassinated targets of strategic value to the US government on behalf of a foreign agency. Bucky would have likely been subject to the UCMJ or a Military Tribunarial.
Military courts are not well known for their tolerance and understanding of mitigating circumstances. Thier view, much like many civilian courts, is that coercion to kill isn't necessarily a good excuse as one should put the lives of others before one's own life.
And, although your fan-fiction is quite entertaining, there would have been no way for Tony to intervene financially in such a proceeding with a "team of layers." Furthermore, Military courts are well known for their ability to hinder access to the press and the public at large.
If Bucky were tried as a civilian, that would make it harder for the military and clandestine services to debrief him without infringing on his civil rights to some extent. It would be far more advantageous to them to try him as a soldier.
Unlike yourself, Steve probably realized all of this and decided to obstruct justice temporarily to gather as much intel and evidence in Bucky's favor before surrendering him to what would almost certainly be his death.
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Post by Daisy on Mar 26, 2018 15:57:54 GMT
For someone who rated Civil War 1/10, you sure do like to talk about it.
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 26, 2018 16:05:05 GMT
This all assumes that Bucky would have been tried as a civilian which, the more I think about it, the less likely that seems. James Buchanan Barnes holds the rank of Sergeant in the US Army. He assassinated targets of strategic value to the US government on behalf of a foreign agency. Bucky would have likely been subject to the UCMJ or a Military Tribunarial. Military courts are not well known for their tolerance and understanding of mitigating circumstances. Thier view, much like many civilian courts, is that coercion to kill isn't necessarily a good excuse as one should put the lives of others before one's own life. And, although your fan-fiction is quite entertaining, there would have been no way for Tony to intervene financially in such a proceeding with a "team of layers." Furthermore, Military courts are well known for their ability to hinder access to the press and the public at large. If Bucky were tried as a civilian, that would make it harder for the military and clandestine services to debrief him without infringing on his civil rights to some extent. It would be far more advantageous to them to try him as a soldier. 1st, it's possible that it would be a military tribunal, but Bucky knew when he signed up for the Army that he was subject to the UCMJ and thus any crimes he commits or laws he breaks as a member of the US Army, he could be subject to a court martial or military tribunal. 2nd, military tribunals are still subject to the rights guaranteed in the US Constitution and Bucky would still be entitled to be represented by a lawyer. And it doesn't even have to be a military lawyer. If Bucky wanted to be represented by a civilian lawyer, he has that right. So Tony Stark could've hired the best civilian lawyer available to defend Bucky. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 26, 2018 16:35:18 GMT
They weren't going to give him a trial, they said so. The were going to bend the law and just have him be incarcerated. In fact, they just wanted to kill him to start with.
This stuff happens in real life.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 26, 2018 16:36:50 GMT
This all assumes that Bucky would have been tried as a civilian which, the more I think about it, the less likely that seems. James Buchanan Barnes holds the rank of Sergeant in the US Army. He assassinated targets of strategic value to the US government on behalf of a foreign agency. Bucky would have likely been subject to the UCMJ or a Military Tribunarial. Military courts are not well known for their tolerance and understanding of mitigating circumstances. Thier view, much like many civilian courts, is that coercion to kill isn't necessarily a good excuse as one should put the lives of others before one's own life. And, although your fan-fiction is quite entertaining, there would have been no way for Tony to intervene financially in such a proceeding with a "team of layers." Furthermore, Military courts are well known for their ability to hinder access to the press and the public at large. If Bucky were tried as a civilian, that would make it harder for the military and clandestine services to debrief him without infringing on his civil rights to some extent. It would be far more advantageous to them to try him as a soldier. Military tribunals are still subject to the rights guaranteed in the US Constitution and Bucky would still be entitled to be represented by a lawyer. And it doesn't even have to be a military lawyer. If Bucky wanted to be represented by a civilian lawyer, he has that right. So Tony Stark could've hired the best civilian lawyer available to defend Bucky. He would have been able to choose a single lawyer, not a "team of lawyers." The idea of getting a high-profile lawyer to defend you in a commission isn't exactly equivalent to the civilian version of this scenario. The lawyer in question simply wouldn't have the same latitude as a private lawyer primarily due to reasons of national security - this is why it's not a very common occurrence. The UCMJ also allows for the hiring of a civilian lawyer in certain instances; however, it's also not very common because most civilian lawyers aren't equipped to handle the intricacies of military jurisprudence. But, let's say your scenario somehow did pan out and Bucky showed up to court with a phalanx of high-powered civilian lawyers all fully versed in military doctrine, customs, culture, and law. Let's also assume they found ways around the restrictions surrounding the presentation of evidence tied to concerns of national security. Let's also suppose that they could get the press unfettered access to the proceedings. Even under those circumstances, it may have still been worth it for Steve to get slapped with an obstruction charge to buy more time to locate evidence that, if made public, would at least exonerate Barnes in the court of public opinion if not in a legal proceeding. And, the most significant nail in the coffin of your argument is this; would Tony have paid the legal fees for the man who killed his parents? Zemo would have likely leaked the footage regardless of the outcome of his plan. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 26, 2018 16:48:59 GMT
Steve probably realized all of this and decided to obstruct justice temporarily to gather as much intel and evidence in Bucky's favor before surrendering him to what would almost certainly be his death. You've just confirmed my point that Steve Rogers does indeed want to be a tyrant. If any other soldier had violently and brutally killed 2 civilians and then claimed that he was brainwashed, he would still face a court martial or military tribunal. So why does Steve Rogers think that Bucky should get special treatment different than any other soldier?
It's because Steve Rogers believes that he and Bucky and the rest of the Avengers are superior to normal people and therefore should rule over normal people like Kings instead of being judged by normal people. So thanks for confirming my point that Steve rogers does want to be a tyrant over the people.
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 26, 2018 16:53:09 GMT
They weren't going to give him a trial, they said so. The were going to bend the law and just have him be incarcerated. In fact, they just wanted to kill him to start with. 1st, the fact that they arrested Bucky and didn't kill him when they had the chance to proves your claim wrong.
2nd, the fact that Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through public streets means the press knows that the government has Bucky in custody so the government can't cover it up and therefore Bucky is 100% guaranteed a trial and once again your claim is proven wrong.
3rd, just because they said so in the movie doesn't make it so because that was just bad writing. In SMH, Iron man stopped the ferry boat from sinking simply by pushing the 2 halves of the boat together. Just because that was in the movie doesn't make it so that you can stop a boat split in half from sinking simply by pushing the 2 halves together. It was just bad writing and once again your claim is proven wrong.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 26, 2018 17:06:22 GMT
They weren't going to give him a trial, they said so. The were going to bend the law and just have him be incarcerated. In fact, they just wanted to kill him to start with. 1st, the fact that they arrested Bucky and didn't kill him when they had the chance to proves your claim wrong.
2nd, the fact that Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through public streets means the press knows that the government has Bucky in custody so the government can't cover it up and therefore Bucky is 100% guaranteed a trial and once again your claim is proven wrong.
3rd, just because they said so in the movie doesn't make it so because that was just bad writing. In SMH, Iron man stopped the ferry boat from sinking simply by pushing the 2 halves of the boat together. Just because that was in the movie doesn't make it so that you can stop a boat split in half from sinking simply by pushing the 2 halves together. It was just bad writing and once again your claim is proven wrong.
1) They only arrested him because the Avengers interfered and made sure the public saw everything. They were forced into not killing him.
2) Nope, they could easily cover it up once he was in custody. This happens in real life. Nothing would protect him then.
3) He pushed them together and the strength of the combined suits welded it back together long enough to evacuate people.
Superman in Superman III was able to weld a hole he made in an Oil Tanker's hold shut without igniting the oil. This isn't possible but happened, yet you defend that. If you defend that, then the Ferry thing is peanuts.
You're self-destructing Ken, just like DC.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 26, 2018 17:07:04 GMT
Steve probably realized all of this and decided to obstruct justice temporarily to gather as much intel and evidence in Bucky's favor before surrendering him to what would almost certainly be his death. You've just confirmed my point that Steve Rogers does indeed want to be a tyrant. If any other soldier had violently and brutally killed 2 civilians and then claimed that he was brainwashed, he would still face a court martial or military tribunal. So why does Steve Rogers think that Bucky should get special treatment different than any other soldier?
It's because Steve Rogers believes that he and Bucky and the rest of the Avengers are superior to normal people and therefore should rule over normal people like Kings instead of being judged by normal people. So thanks for confirming my point that Steve rogers does want to be a tyrant over the people.
I have not confirmed your point because you haven't made one. Not true, whether or not it would be a court martial or commission depends heavily on the circumstances and evidence presented. Please pay attention. Steve Rogers does not think the Avengers are superior to anyone. There is nothing in the film that supports that assertion. The only claim that you make that the film supports is that Steve Rogers is willing to break the law to help a friend. He was willing to sign the accords so long as some safe guards were put in place. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 26, 2018 22:41:18 GMT
1st, the fact that they arrested Bucky and didn't kill him when they had the chance to proves your claim wrong.
2nd, the fact that Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through public streets means the press knows that the government has Bucky in custody so the government can't cover it up and therefore Bucky is 100% guaranteed a trial and once again your claim is proven wrong.
3rd, just because they said so in the movie doesn't make it so because that was just bad writing. In SMH, Iron man stopped the ferry boat from sinking simply by pushing the 2 halves of the boat together. Just because that was in the movie doesn't make it so that you can stop a boat split in half from sinking simply by pushing the 2 halves together. It was just bad writing and once again your claim is proven wrong.
1) They only arrested him because the Avengers interfered and made sure the public saw everything. They were forced into not killing him.
And since the public saw him arrested, the government would also be forced into giving him a trial by jury. 2) Nope, they could easily cover it up once he was in custody. This happens in real life. Nothing would protect him then. The international press would make sure there was no coverup and guarantee that Bucky got a trial by jury. It's just like in White Nights, where Baryshnikov just needed to be seen alive by the international press because then the Soviets couldn't cover it up. Likewise, Bucky being seen arrested in public is a 1005 guarantee that the government can't cover it up and a 100% guarantee that Bucky would get a trial by jury. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 26, 2018 22:43:52 GMT
1) They only arrested him because the Avengers interfered and made sure the public saw everything. They were forced into not killing him.
And since the public saw him arrested, the government would also be forced into giving him a trial by jury. 2) Nope, they could easily cover it up once he was in custody. This happens in real life. Nothing would protect him then. The international press would make sure there was no coverup and guarantee that Bucky got a trial by jury. It's just like in White Nights, where Baryshnikov just needed to be seen alive by the international press because then the Soviets couldn't cover it up. Likewise, Bucky being seen arrested in public is a 1005 guarantee that the government can't cover it up and a 100% guarantee that Bucky would get a trial by jury. No, the Government would find a way to cover it up and keep him incarcerated. This stuff happens in Real Life. And no, the International Press would NOT make sure there was no Cover-Up. White Nights wasn't exploring every avenue. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 26, 2018 22:50:49 GMT
You've just confirmed my point that Steve Rogers does indeed want to be a tyrant. If any other soldier had violently and brutally killed 2 civilians and then claimed that he was brainwashed, he would still face a court martial or military tribunal. So why does Steve Rogers think that Bucky should get special treatment different than any other soldier?
It's because Steve Rogers believes that he and Bucky and the rest of the Avengers are superior to normal people and therefore should rule over normal people like Kings instead of being judged by normal people. So thanks for confirming my point that Steve rogers does want to be a tyrant over the people.
I have not confirmed your point because you haven't made one. Not true, whether or not it would be a court martial or commission depends heavily on the circumstances and evidence presented. Please pay attention. Steve Rogers does not think the Avengers are superior to anyone. There is nothing in the film that supports that assertion. The only claim that you make that the film supports is that Steve Rogers is willing to break the law to help a friend. He was willing to sign the accords so long as some safe guards were put in place. 1st, it's not true that Bucky would even get a military trial instead of a civilian trial. Bucky killed 2 civilians so the people of New York could claim jurisdiction for prosecution of those killings. If Bucky surrenders to the NYPD or the New York State Police rather than to federal agents or the military, then the New York city D.A. or the Attorney General of New York (both civilians) would want Bucky tried in their criminal courts (because D.A's and Attorney Generals love to prosecute high-profile cases) so they would fight to get the trial in a New York criminal court rather than a federal military court. It depends on who Bucky surrenders to. Cap could arrange to have Bucky surrender to the NYPD or the New York State Police rather than to federal agents or the military. 2nd, Steve Rogers does think the Avengers are superior to normal people, which is why Steve Rogers wants special, preferential treatment for Bucky that's different than what any other normal soldier would get, namely that Bucky shouldn't stand trial for the killings because the Avengers are superior to normal people and should rule over normal people like Kings rather than be judged by normal people. And that's what you confirmed when you said that Steve Rogers "decided to obstruct justice", which is also a crime. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 26, 2018 23:53:47 GMT
1st, it's not true that Bucky would even get a military trial instead of a civilian trial. He wasn't going to get any trial. You're thinking of Superman, who feels he has the right to destroy government property. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Mar 26, 2018 23:57:03 GMT
I have not confirmed your point because you haven't made one. Not true, whether or not it would be a court martial or commission depends heavily on the circumstances and evidence presented. Please pay attention. Steve Rogers does not think the Avengers are superior to anyone. There is nothing in the film that supports that assertion. The only claim that you make that the film supports is that Steve Rogers is willing to break the law to help a friend. He was willing to sign the accords so long as some safe guards were put in place. 1st, it's not true that Bucky would even get a military trial instead of a civilian trial. Bucky killed 2 civilians so the people of New York could claim jurisdiction for prosecution of those killings. If Bucky surrenders to the NYPD or the New York State Police rather than to federal agents or the military, then the New York city D.A. or the Attorney General of New York (both civilians) would want Bucky tried in their criminal courts (because D.A's and Attorney Generals love to prosecute high-profile cases) so they would fight to get the trial in a New York criminal court rather than a federal military court. It depends on who Bucky surrenders to. Cap could arrange to have Bucky surrender to the NYPD or the New York State Police rather than to federal agents or the military. 2nd, Steve Rogers does think the Avengers are superior to normal people, which is why Steve Rogers wants special, preferential treatment for Bucky that's different than what any other normal soldier would get, namely that Bucky shouldn't stand trial for the killings because the Avengers are superior to normal people and should rule over normal people like Kings rather than be judged by normal people. And that's what you confirmed when you said that Steve Rogers "decided to obstruct justice", which is also a crime. No, it does not depend on who Bucky surrenders to. Bucky stole Erskine's super soldier formula during the commissioning of the murders - the serum is classified and falls under the umbrella of national security. If you can't speak to Bucky's motive for the killings, which was to steal the serum, you can't fairly try him in open civilian court. Local jurisdictional authority would likely be superseded. Maria and Howard Stark were operating as agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. transporting highly classified government materials which Bucky stole and handed over to enemy agents. There's no way this isn't a Federal case. |
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Post by damngumby on Mar 27, 2018 0:07:41 GMT
In the world portrayed in the MCU, there was zero chance Bucky was going to get a fair trial. Zero. It was so obvious, even a dumb kid could figure it out. Why can’t you?
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 27, 2018 0:18:54 GMT
1st, it's not true that Bucky would even get a military trial instead of a civilian trial. Bucky killed 2 civilians so the people of New York could claim jurisdiction for prosecution of those killings. If Bucky surrenders to the NYPD or the New York State Police rather than to federal agents or the military, then the New York city D.A. or the Attorney General of New York (both civilians) would want Bucky tried in their criminal courts (because D.A's and Attorney Generals love to prosecute high-profile cases) so they would fight to get the trial in a New York criminal court rather than a federal military court. It depends on who Bucky surrenders to. Cap could arrange to have Bucky surrender to the NYPD or the New York State Police rather than to federal agents or the military. 2nd, Steve Rogers does think the Avengers are superior to normal people, which is why Steve Rogers wants special, preferential treatment for Bucky that's different than what any other normal soldier would get, namely that Bucky shouldn't stand trial for the killings because the Avengers are superior to normal people and should rule over normal people like Kings rather than be judged by normal people. And that's what you confirmed when you said that Steve Rogers "decided to obstruct justice", which is also a crime. No, it does not depend on who Bucky surrenders to. Bucky stole Erskine's super soldier formula during the commissioning of the murders - the serum is classified and falls under the umbrella of national security. If you can't speak to Bucky's motive for the killings, which was to steal the serum, you can't fairly try him in open civilian court. Local jurisdictional authority would likely be superseded. Maria and Howard Stark were operating as agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. transporting highly classified government materials which Bucky stole and handed over to enemy agents. There's no way this isn't a Federal case. No, that's not true. The D.A. can still prosecute Bucky for the killings in state criminal court. You seem to have forgotten that there's a videotape of Bucky committing the killings. So the D.A. has all the evidence he needs to prove to a jury that Bucky committed the killings and doesn't need to enter into evidence the secret super soldier PED. The only question in the murder case is whether Bucky was "brainwashed" (as he and Cap claim) and if so, then whether that "brainwashing" is enough to either absolve Bucky of all responsibility for the killings or merely just reduce his responsibilities for the killings from murder to manslaughter. |
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Post by DC-Fan on Mar 27, 2018 0:19:59 GMT
1st, it's not true that Bucky would even get a military trial instead of a civilian trial. He wasn't going to get any trial. Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through public streets so the public knows that the government had Bucky in custody so Bucky was 100% guaranteed a trial by jury. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 27, 2018 0:23:36 GMT
He wasn't going to get any trial. Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through public streets so the public knows that the government had Bucky in custody so Bucky was 100% guaranteed a trial by jury. Nope, it would've been covered up. Just like how Bruce Wayne helped Amanda Waller get away with Murder. |
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