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Post by Skaathar on May 19, 2018 17:10:36 GMT
I'm not defending Caps actions in regards to Bucky. I agree that he went WAY too far in defending him. At a certain point he should have allowed Bucky to be apprehended; after all, brainwashed or not, he did kill people.
On the other hand I can also see why Steve would want to help the guy. Bucky is his best friend and the one guy who stood up for him all the time. And the brainwashing thing is a pretty strong mitigating circumstance. One could make a strong argument, especially with the proof available, that a brainwashed person is not the villain in the piece, but rather the ones who DID the brainwashing.
That's what I liked about the movie... the notion that right and wrong weren't black and white, but rather shades of grey. And that's a difficult thing for a "black and white" guy like Cap to have to deal with.
For me the deepest part of the movie is when Tony asks if he knew, and Cap, being who he is, has to answer honestly, and says yes. Dude, Bucky wasn't going to be "apprehended". The orders were to shoot him on sight. The only reason he got taken in was because Cap, BP and Falcon already got involved and drew too much attention. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 19, 2018 17:12:52 GMT
I'm not defending Caps actions in regards to Bucky. I agree that he went WAY too far in defending him. At a certain point he should have allowed Bucky to be apprehended; after all, brainwashed or not, he did kill people.
On the other hand I can also see why Steve would want to help the guy. Bucky is his best friend and the one guy who stood up for him all the time. And the brainwashing thing is a pretty strong mitigating circumstance. One could make a strong argument, especially with the proof available, that a brainwashed person is not the villain in the piece, but rather the ones who DID the brainwashing.
That's what I liked about the movie... the notion that right and wrong weren't black and white, but rather shades of grey. And that's a difficult thing for a "black and white" guy like Cap to have to deal with.
For me the deepest part of the movie is when Tony asks if he knew, and Cap, being who he is, has to answer honestly, and says yes. Dude, Bucky wasn't going to be "apprehended". The orders were to shoot him on sight. The only reason he got taken in was because Cap, BP and Falcon already got involved and drew too much attention. But he DID get taken in. And at that point they would have HAD to give him some kind of due process. Neither Cap or Black Panther would let it go at that point. |
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Post by Skaathar on May 19, 2018 17:15:03 GMT
Dude, Bucky wasn't going to be "apprehended". The orders were to shoot him on sight. The only reason he got taken in was because Cap, BP and Falcon already got involved and drew too much attention. But he DID get taken in. And at that point they would have HAD to give him some kind of due process. Neither Cap or Black Panther would let it go at that point. Yes he did get taken in, and Cap didn't try to go against that decusion or break him out or anything. So not sure what you're talking about. |
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Post by DC-Fan on May 19, 2018 19:26:12 GMT
I'm not defending Caps actions in regards to Bucky. I agree that he went WAY too far in defending him. At a certain point he should have allowed Bucky to be apprehended; after all, brainwashed or not, he did kill people. Exactly! Bucky killed 2 people in a violent and brutal manner. A murder case wouldn't be the Family of Howard and Maria Stark vs Bucky Barnes or the Estate of Howard and Maria Stark vs Bucky Barnes. murder trial would be the People vs Bucky Barnes. Because murder is a crime against the people. So the people should be the ones who decide if Bucky is guilty of murder or manslaughter or not guilty due to mitigating circumstances. But Steve Rogers deprived the people of that right because Steve Rogers doesn't believe that the Avengers are more powerful than the People and should rule over the People like Kings rather than be judged by or have to answer to the People. On the other hand I can also see why Steve would want to help the guy. Bucky is his best friend and the one guy who stood up for him all the time. And Steve can help Bucky by making sure that Bucky has a good lawyer and by testifying for Bucky in court. the brainwashing thing is a pretty strong mitigating circumstance. One could make a strong argument, especially with the proof available, that a brainwashed person is not the villain in the piece, but rather the ones who DID the brainwashing. And that's all for a jury of the People to decide. Bucky's lawyers can argue that in court, but it should be the People that decide, not Steve Rogers unilaterally deciding that. That's what I liked about the movie... the notion that right and wrong weren't black and white It was black and white. Bucky killed 2 people. Either a jury of the people decide (as guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution) his guilt or 1 man would decide (which is often the 1st step towards dicatatorship and tyranny). So it was black and white - do you favor democracy or do you favor dictatorship and tyranny? |
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Post by DC-Fan on May 19, 2018 19:31:20 GMT
I'm not defending Caps actions in regards to Bucky. I agree that he went WAY too far in defending him. At a certain point he should have allowed Bucky to be apprehended; after all, brainwashed or not, he did kill people.
On the other hand I can also see why Steve would want to help the guy. Bucky is his best friend and the one guy who stood up for him all the time. And the brainwashing thing is a pretty strong mitigating circumstance. One could make a strong argument, especially with the proof available, that a brainwashed person is not the villain in the piece, but rather the ones who DID the brainwashing.
That's what I liked about the movie... the notion that right and wrong weren't black and white, but rather shades of grey. And that's a difficult thing for a "black and white" guy like Cap to have to deal with.
For me the deepest part of the movie is when Tony asks if he knew, and Cap, being who he is, has to answer honestly, and says yes. Dude, Bucky wasn't going to be "apprehended". The orders were to shoot him on sight. The only reason he got taken in was because Cap, BP and Falcon already got involved and drew too much attention. . That's the key phrase. You MCU fans can make whatever bullshit claims and excuses you want, but the moment that Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through the streets in public, the whole world knew they had Bucky in custody and the media would've demanded access to cover the trial of the most wanted terrorist in the world. There was no way the government could cover it up because there was too much attention so Bucky was guaranteed 100% to get a trial by jury. At that point, all the claims and excuses by Steve Rogers become bullshit because Bucky has been arrested in public and is guaranteed to get a trial by jury. So there's no reason to aid and abet Bucky to flee from the law. But Steve Rogers aided ad abetting Bucky to flee because Steve Rogers didn't want a trial for Bucky because Steve Rogers believes that the Avengers are more powerful than the people and should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by or have to answer to the people. |
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Post by DC-Fan on May 19, 2018 19:33:11 GMT
Dude, Bucky wasn't going to be "apprehended". The orders were to shoot him on sight. The only reason he got taken in was because Cap, BP and Falcon already got involved and drew too much attention. But he DID get taken in. And at that point they would have HAD to give him some kind of due process. Neither Cap or Black Panther would let it go at that point. Agreed. That's the point. He DID get taken in, ALIVE. So all that "shoot to kill" claim becomes nonsense and irrelevant at that point. He's been arrested in public, he's in custody, and the whole world knows it, and the media will demand access to cover the trial of the most wanted terrorist in the world. So at that point, Bucky is 100% guaranteed of getting a trial by jury. The reason Cap didn't let it go was because Cap didn't want the people to decide Bucky's fate because Cap believes that the Avengers are more powerful than the people and should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by or have to answer to the people. |
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Post by damngumby on May 19, 2018 20:36:33 GMT
But he DID get taken in. And at that point they would have HAD to give him some kind of due process. Neither Cap or Black Panther would let it go at that point. Agreed. That's the point. Like the due process those Avengers got when they were locked away in that secret underwater prison? ... or the real terrorists in Guantanamo Bay who will never see the insides of a court room? Anyone who legitimately thinks Bucky would have got some due process is being galactically naive. The illegitimate thinking in this thread is just the last gasps of a troll trying to prolong the life of a failed argument. |
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Post by Skaathar on May 19, 2018 20:55:33 GMT
Dude, Bucky wasn't going to be "apprehended". The orders were to shoot him on sight. The only reason he got taken in was because Cap, BP and Falcon already got involved and drew too much attention. . That's the key phrase. You MCU fans can make whatever bullshit claims and excuses you want, but the moment that Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through the streets in public, the whole world knew they had Bucky in custody and the media would've demanded access to cover the trial of the most wanted terrorist in the world. There was no way the government could cover it up because there was too much attention so Bucky was guaranteed 100% to get a trial by jury. At that point, all the claims and excuses by Steve Rogers become bullshit because Bucky has been arrested in public and is guaranteed to get a trial by jury. So there's no reason to aid and abet Bucky to flee from the law. But Steve Rogers aided ad abetting Bucky to flee because Steve Rogers didn't want a trial for Bucky because Steve Rogers believes that the Avengers are more powerful than the people and should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by or have to answer to the people. Uh, yes smart guy, Bucky got taken in BECAUSE Cap interfered. If Cap didn't then Bucky would have been shot on sight. After that, Cap didn't aid Bucky because he wanted him out jail, they ran because they were trying to take out the other winter soldiers. One day you really need to watch these movies first before trolling them. |
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Post by DC-Fan on May 20, 2018 2:04:08 GMT
Agreed. That's the point. Like the due process those Avengers got when they were locked away in that secret underwater prison? ... or the real terrorists in Guantanamo Bay who will never see the insides of a court room? Anyone who legitimately thinks Bucky would have got some due process is being galactically naive. The illegitimate thinking in this thread is just the last gasps of a troll trying to prolong the life of a failed argument. Name a prisoner who was held in Guantanomo Bay. You can't, because none of those prisoners were famous enough for the media or anyone to give a shit about. If an unknown person was on trial for killing his ex-wife and another guy, the media wouldn't give a shit about it. But when O.J. Simpson is on trial for killing his ex-wife and another guy, the media has daily coverage of the trial. Because the media loves to cover BIG trials of FAMOUS people. Bucky is the MOST WANTED terrorist in the world so the media would want to cover his trial and would demand access to cover the trial. So like I said before, given the fact that Bucky was arrested in public after a chase through public streets and thus the whole world knows that the MOST WANTED terrorist in the world is in custody, that was a 100% guarantee that Bucky was getting a trial by jury. But Steve Rogers didn't want Bucky to have a trial by jury because Steve Rogers believes that the Avengers are more powerful than the people and should rule over the people like Kings rather than be judged by or have to answer to the people. |
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Post by Skaathar on May 20, 2018 5:26:01 GMT
DC-Fan are you ignoring me?
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Post by damngumby on May 20, 2018 10:31:26 GMT
Name a prisoner who was held in Guantanomo Bay. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Probably the most “famous” terrorist next to Osama bin Laden. Remember seeing this guys mug in all the papers when he was captured? Link
I just did. |
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Post by damngumby on May 21, 2018 2:58:16 GMT
Name a prisoner who was held in Guantanomo Bay. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Probably the most “famous” terrorist next to Osama bin Laden. Remember seeing this guys mug in all the papers when he was captured? Link
I just did. Well, that shut him up!  |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 21, 2018 14:06:56 GMT
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Probably the most “famous” terrorist next to Osama bin Laden. Remember seeing this guys mug in all the papers when he was captured? Link
I just did. Well, that shut him up! Nah, you're just desperate for anything after being humiliated, disgraced, and openly disliked by everyone here. Innit? |
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Post by damngumby on May 22, 2018 8:06:33 GMT
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Probably the most “famous” terrorist next to Osama bin Laden. Remember seeing this guys mug in all the papers when he was captured? Link
I just did. Well, that shut him up! Now that DC-Fraud has tapped out on this topic, I think he owes Steve Rogers an apology for perpetuating a falsehood based on such flimsy evidence. |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 22, 2018 17:21:05 GMT
But he DID get taken in. And at that point they would have HAD to give him some kind of due process. Neither Cap or Black Panther would let it go at that point. Yes he did get taken in, and Cap didn't try to go against that decusion or break him out or anything. So not sure what you're talking about. That's because you don't know how to read, or because you choose what part of what you read to focus on while disregarding the rest. The key words in what I wrote were: "due process" and that was in response to you're saying that they never intended to give him such, but rather that they just intended to kill him. Did I explain it well enough for you this time? |
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Post by Skaathar on May 22, 2018 19:58:11 GMT
Yes he did get taken in, and Cap didn't try to go against that decusion or break him out or anything. So not sure what you're talking about. That's because you don't know how to read, or because you choose what part of what you read to focus on while disregarding the rest. The key words in what I wrote were: "due process" and that was in response to you're saying that they never intended to give him such, but rather that they just intended to kill him. Did I explain it well enough for you this time? Ok... that didn't exactly address my original statement which was that they planned to shoot Bucky on sight. The only reason why they were now considering to give him due process was BECAUSE Cap interfered. If Cap never interfered they would have just shot Bucky. |
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Post by DC-Fan on May 23, 2018 2:10:58 GMT
Yes he did get taken in, and Cap didn't try to go against that decusion or break him out or anything. So not sure what you're talking about. That's because you don't know how to read, or because you choose what part of what you read to focus on while disregarding the rest. The key words in what I wrote were: "due process" and that was in response to you're saying that they never intended to give him such, but rather that they just intended to kill him. Did I explain it well enough for you this time? Agreed. Notice how MCU fans here are still trying to focus the argument on what happened prior to Bucky being arrested and taken into custody. But what happened prior to Bucky's arrest (whether or not the government intended to shoot on sight) became completely irrelevant the moment that Bucky was arrested and taken into custody. At that point, the whole world knows that Bucky has been arrested and is in custody so the government can't shoot him and has to give him due process, which is what I've been trying to explain to all the MCU fans for a long time but MCU fans are slow at getting things. So my question still remains unanswered by MCU fans: Since Bucky was 100% guaranteed due process and a trial by jury, why didn't Steve Rogers just allow Bucky to have a trial? The answer is obviously because Steve Rogers believes that since the Avenges are more powerful than the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings instead of being judged by or having to answer to the people. Steve Rogers' behavior is no different than Richard Nixon's behavior on WaterGate. Nixon believed that since he's POTUS, he didn't have to turn over the tapes. Nixon believed that he didn't have to answer to the people, and that's exactly the same belief that Steve Rogers has. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on May 23, 2018 4:59:04 GMT
That's because you don't know how to read, or because you choose what part of what you read to focus on while disregarding the rest. The key words in what I wrote were: "due process" and that was in response to you're saying that they never intended to give him such, but rather that they just intended to kill him. Did I explain it well enough for you this time? So my question still remains unanswered by MCU fans: Since Bucky was 100% guaranteed due process and a trial by jury, why didn't Steve Rogers just allow Bucky to have a trial? Because none of this is real and your way makes for a boring-ass movie. Hee hee hee... |
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Post by Skaathar on May 23, 2018 6:43:37 GMT
That's because you don't know how to read, or because you choose what part of what you read to focus on while disregarding the rest. The key words in what I wrote were: "due process" and that was in response to you're saying that they never intended to give him such, but rather that they just intended to kill him. Did I explain it well enough for you this time? Agreed. Notice how MCU fans here are still trying to focus the argument on what happened prior to Bucky being arrested and taken into custody. But what happened prior to Bucky's arrest (whether or not the government intended to shoot on sight) became completely irrelevant the moment that Bucky was arrested and taken into custody. At that point, the whole world knows that Bucky has been arrested and is in custody so the government can't shoot him and has to give him due process, which is what I've been trying to explain to all the MCU fans for a long time but MCU fans are slow at getting things. So my question still remains unanswered by MCU fans: Since Bucky was 100% guaranteed due process and a trial by jury, why didn't Steve Rogers just allow Bucky to have a trial? The answer is obviously because Steve Rogers believes that since the Avenges are more powerful than the people, the Avengers should rule over the people like Kings instead of being judged by or having to answer to the people. Steve Rogers' behavior is no different than Richard Nixon's behavior on WaterGate. Nixon believed that since he's POTUS, he didn't have to turn over the tapes. Nixon believed that he didn't have to answer to the people, and that's exactly the same belief that Steve Rogers has. Oh I've been answering your question for the last few pages now, but you seem to be ignoring me because you know you can't refute my points. Once Bucky was captured Cap didn't try to stop Bucky from getting a trial. He didn't try to break him out or anything, heck he even tried to STOP Bucky from escaping. After that he found out about the other winter soldiers and his main priority was about stopping them from being woken up, and unfortunately he needed Bucky for that. So at no point did Cap actually try and stop Bucky from getting a trial or due process, which means your entire OP is false and nothing but a troll attempt. Now, are you going to continue ignoring me? |
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Post by sostie on May 23, 2018 9:00:58 GMT
That's because you don't know how to read, or because you choose what part of what you read to focus on while disregarding the rest. The key words in what I wrote were: "due process" and that was in response to you're saying that they never intended to give him such, but rather that they just intended to kill him. Did I explain it well enough for you this time? So my question still remains unanswered by MCU fans: Since Bucky was 100% guaranteed due process and a trial by jury, why didn't Steve Rogers just allow Bucky to have a trial? In what country would he have had his trial? Not USA, at that point his murder of the Starks had not been revealed. So where? Austria? Romania? Because there are a lot of countries that do NOT have trial by jury, so your so called 100% guarantee is bullshit. |
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