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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 21:44:12 GMT
cluded. I did, for a looong time, lol. I think to criticize these films, you can't really, unless you view them as all one thing. It's 3 films, but it's one story throughout it. On the other hand if someones like, well episode one is so much better than clones, they're missing the point, imo. Which is how I would wrongly judge these films.
Another problem, is like they say: Well the real reason behind why it's all so bad is because no one was there willing to challenge lucas and say that some of his ideas sucked. It's the same thing with Kubrick, everyone around his was also a bunch of yes men, no body is going to challenge Kubrick. but everybody praises all his films regardless(of that), so it seems like, having one person that has his own personal vision on the screen (or no one to criticize what he does when making a film)is only a bad thing if you don't like it, or words to that effect.
So yea they can still criticize the prequels, but just do with the correct criterea in mind first. That would make more sense? I think so. |
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Post by sostie on Apr 6, 2018 0:06:13 GMT
Seen as either individually or as one ongoing story, for me, they are not just bad Star Wars films, they are bad films full stop. Three bad films or one long bad film. No difference to me.
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Post by ck100 on Apr 6, 2018 0:10:59 GMT
They're flawed films for sure, but I don't think they're as bad as people make them out to be.
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Post by Popeye Doyle on Apr 6, 2018 0:16:34 GMT
The Phantom Menace remains an especially awful movie.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Apr 6, 2018 0:34:41 GMT
It's the same thing with Kubrick, everyone around his was also a bunch of yes men, no body is going to challenge Kubrick. but everybody praises all his films regardless(of that), so it seems like, having one person that has his own personal vision on the screen (or no one to criticize what he does when making a film)is only a bad thing if you don't like it, or words to that effect. Well...yeah. If a filmmaker is skilled enough to singularity craft a film like Kubrick, then all's well that ends well. The thing is, few filmmakers are, and George Lucas is not one of them. The original Star Wars ended up very different from his original vision, with a lot of help from people around him (not to mention an entirely copied plot from Kurosawa). The sequel, the best film in the series, is the one he was least involved with. So no, he should not have had full reign on the prequels simply because Kubrick makes it look easy, and the proof is in the pudding. As someone else said, they stink whether viewed together or separate. Three turds aren't better as one long turd. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 4:34:14 GMT
It's the same thing with Kubrick, everyone around his was also a bunch of yes men, no body is going to challenge Kubrick. but everybody praises all his films regardless(of that), so it seems like, having one person that has his own personal vision on the screen (or no one to criticize what he does when making a film)is only a bad thing if you don't like it, or words to that effect. Well...yeah. If a filmmaker is skilled enough to singularity craft a film like Kubrick, then all's well that ends well. The thing is, few filmmakers are, and George Lucas is not one of them. The original Star Wars ended up very different from his original vision, with a lot of help from people around him (not to mention an entirely copied plot from Kurosawa). The sequel, the best film in the series, is the one he was least involved with. So no, he should not have had full reign on the prequels simply because Kubrick makes it look easy, and the proof is in the pudding. As someone else said, they stink whether viewed together or separate. Three turds aren't better as one long turd. My only counter argument would be, the special editions of star wars, had far more problems than the prequels do. |
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Post by sostie on Apr 6, 2018 9:15:42 GMT
Well...yeah. If a filmmaker is skilled enough to singularity craft a film like Kubrick, then all's well that ends well. The thing is, few filmmakers are, and George Lucas is not one of them. The original Star Wars ended up very different from his original vision, with a lot of help from people around him (not to mention an entirely copied plot from Kurosawa). The sequel, the best film in the series, is the one he was least involved with. So no, he should not have had full reign on the prequels simply because Kubrick makes it look easy, and the proof is in the pudding. As someone else said, they stink whether viewed together or separate. Three turds aren't better as one long turd. My only counter argument would be, the special editions of star wars, had far more problems than the prequels do. They really didn't. Whatever changes were made to the original trilogy, I don't think they made the direction, script and acting any worse than they already were, or reduced them to the level of the prequels. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 10:46:16 GMT
This is worse than anything that happened in the prequels.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 6, 2018 11:36:20 GMT
So yea they can still criticize the prequels, but just do with the correct criterea in mind first. That would make more sense? I think so. thanks, very astute observation that. I never encountered a prequel hater who did not use false, fallacious or random arguments when asked to elaborate, and I admit having a lot of fun kicking their uninformed asses. My favorites: " The politics sucks": In fact Palpatine' rise to power is one of the best written and relevant political scheme ever. Him using the occupation of his people to become chancellor and systematically undermining & destroying democratic processes and institutions in unrivaled in the genre. Also, Palpatine is considered one of the best movie villains, and he WINS which is extremely rare. " Its all CGI" These films stem from the waning 90s, the CGI-ratio was high then but ii moderate compared to modern productions. Eg the prequel spacships were mostly models and backgrounds miniatures (in the new SW films ships are all CGI). In Phantom Menace alone there were more miniatures and sets built than for the entire OT. There are ample of documentaries debunking this uninformed CGI myth. " Iz all about taxes and trade disputes", special ADHS statment, both aspects were not even relevant to the plot and were never discussed. The word "tax" is heard once in the background (!), and "trivial trade dispute" is mentione once (in the first movie). In fact a great many conflicts and wars are due to taxation issue (not just tea), and it's a pertinent economical issue with groups and capitalism. Also, classic stories often used taxes as bone of contention (Robin Hood) " The story is so messy" Well, whenever you ask complainers to elaborate you will find personal incredulity, lack of education and comprehension skills. In fact Lucas is rightfully considered as one of the best storytellers, and other than with the OT or the ST this story is thought-through and well structured. E.g., Anakin's attachments conflicts are set up and materialize in II and are projected in III. Plapatines plot is systematic and brilliant: we see the Empire grow out of the Republic like a dark side cancer (Balance of teh Force). It's visionary, original and creative storytelling. "Its just not Star Wars": Other than most franchises and, alas, the ST Lucas is not content with formulaic repetition and riding retro. He basically expands the world building by bringing in new elements each time - be it art designs (ships etc), cultures, concepts etc. " The acting was bad" That is just as subjective as obtuse , there are brilliant performances and more mediocre ones. SW was never really the place to look for academy nominated acting (though they of course got one). " The execution was bad": sigh, yeah like what? The art design, the music, the editing, cinematography, the acting ... no they are mostly angry that Lucas pioneered digital filmmaking. Seriously, we are living in a time when blockbusters are basically unimaginative rehashes, remakes or juvenile formula exercises. The Star Wars ST is another sorry example for that. I take Luca's dystopian vision of the downfall of democracy and its people anytime over that. Especially when it comes with incredible art design, epic world building and music. |
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 6, 2018 13:30:29 GMT
The saving grace I have for them is this: we'll never ever have to wonder what if George Lucas had been around to film a trilogy, Star Wars prequels, of his very own 100%.
They're there, he did it, it's done. For better or worse.
Until Disney, they felt counterweight to the OT greatness. Now, there'll be at least a dozen more canon episodes even if Disney were to slow down. I-III will forever be the GL trilogy for me.
I re-watched ROTS within weeks of TFA & I could not help but love how richly detailed it all looked & felt, compared to Disney empty vistas albeit with real props. The Opera scene was the clincher for me, panning overhead night urban vista with gaggles of ppl/creatures milling about.
I rank ROTS ahead of ROTJ, & AOTC surely ahead of TLJ.
To my earlier point about counterbalance... the more new Disney SW episodes we get, the less 'required' GL's PT will feel. They won't have to be as load bearing/heavy lifting as when we had to access upon ROTS & their conclusion. Now they can exist with weight off their shoulders.
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Post by THawk on Apr 6, 2018 13:35:10 GMT
I thought the heavy criticism of the acting in the prequels was especially absurd. It's as if they never watched the OT and the type of acting there. it may not be your cup of tea, but it was in line with the style of the OT.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 6, 2018 13:40:10 GMT
This is worse than anything that happened in the prequels. Special Edition scene added by Lucas. A sign of things to come in the prequels. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 6, 2018 13:55:57 GMT
The correct criteria is kinda irrelvant.
My opinion is the films would have been much better focused on Obiwan and his struggles with the dark side of the Force - i.e being loyal to his master's teachings or his brotherhood with Anakin rather than the Jedi council. Then the story would have ended as a victorious one.
No one cared about Anakin and with good reason.
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Post by politicidal on Apr 6, 2018 13:59:21 GMT
I never hated them. Found things wrong with them. But not the universal foaming-at-the-mouth loathing I've seen it instill in some people.
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Post by DSDSquared on Apr 6, 2018 14:03:11 GMT
The prequels are actually very well written, they are just poorly executed. The wooden acting in most of the scenes and they are terribly put together. Revenge of the Sith is pretty well done. Attack of the Clones is easily the worst. Still, I would argue that the prequel trilogy has a better story than any other Star Wars story, including the OT. That does not mean they are better movies.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 6, 2018 14:29:03 GMT
The saving grace I have for them is this: we'll never ever have to wonder what if George Lucas had been around to film a trilogy, Star Wars prequels, of his very own 100%. They're there, he did it, it's done. For better or worse. Until Disney, they felt counterweight to the OT greatness. Now, there'll be at least a dozen more canon episodes even if Disney were to slow down. I-III will forever be the GL trilogy for me. I re-watched ROTS within weeks of TFA & I could not help but love how richly detailed it all looked & felt, compared to Disney empty vistas albeit with real props. The Opera scene was the clincher for me, panning overhead night urban vista with gaggles of ppl/creatures milling about. I rank ROTS ahead of ROTJ, & AOTC surely ahead of TLJ. To my earlier point about counterbalance... the more new Disney SW episodes we get, the less 'required' GL's PT will feel. They won't have to be as load bearing/heavy lifting as when we had to access upon ROTS & their conclusion. Now they can exist with weight off their shoulders. Are you drunk? |
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Post by DSDSquared on Apr 6, 2018 14:31:59 GMT
The saving grace I have for them is this: we'll never ever have to wonder what if George Lucas had been around to film a trilogy, Star Wars prequels, of his very own 100%. They're there, he did it, it's done. For better or worse. Until Disney, they felt counterweight to the OT greatness. Now, there'll be at least a dozen more canon episodes even if Disney were to slow down. I-III will forever be the GL trilogy for me. I re-watched ROTS within weeks of TFA & I could not help but love how richly detailed it all looked & felt, compared to Disney empty vistas albeit with real props. The Opera scene was the clincher for me, panning overhead night urban vista with gaggles of ppl/creatures milling about. I rank ROTS ahead of ROTJ, & AOTC surely ahead of TLJ. To my earlier point about counterbalance... the more new Disney SW episodes we get, the less 'required' GL's PT will feel. They won't have to be as load bearing/heavy lifting as when we had to access upon ROTS & their conclusion. Now they can exist with weight off their shoulders. Are you drunk? The prequels had their problems, but the opera scene is one of the best scenes in any Star Wars film. It is the best scene of the PT. |
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Post by Spike Del Rey on Apr 6, 2018 14:39:46 GMT
The Phantom Menace is the only complete turd in the PT. Attack of the Clones started out bad, but once Obi-Wan went to inspect the clone facility it really picked up; and IMHO the second half is a pretty kickass action movie. Revenge of the Sith has a few problems, but overall is really well-done, and I rank it ahead of Return of the Jedi, not to mention all of the new Disney stuff.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 6, 2018 14:40:56 GMT
The prequels had their problems, but the opera scene is one of the best scenes in any Star Wars film. It is the best scene of the PT. I might not say that myself, yet scenes like it did make the PT feel like a proxy animated film. Again, for better or worse. I think it worked well for those panning shots & pulled back vistas... not so much when focused on characters like the AOTC droid factory which felt a bit too cheeky. |
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 6, 2018 14:43:19 GMT
1. Star Wars
2. Rogue One
3. Empire
4. Sith
5. Jedi
6. Force Awakens
7. Clones
8. Last Jedi
9. Phantom
I used to completist watch I-VI, now I only ever watch the PT on its own I-III. As mentioned, I feel it's more its own thing now. Same for IV-VI, though my favourite combo is Rogue One-Star Wars IV as R1 makes like a fun bonus prologue to SW like The Hobbit for LOTR (books not movies! lols)
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