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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 15, 2022 1:12:04 GMT
And now, an interesting question for all of you:
Which 'Weapon X' procedure depiction is correct? Origins (no blood on his body) or X2 (blood on his body)? I think that having his regenerative powers in FULL mode during the insert of adamantium in his body, would imply that his wounds just closed themselves at a faster speed. So there was very little time to bleed? What do you think?
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 14, 2022 22:53:13 GMT
Its a fun solo movie. Nothing more nothing less. Gets too much hate
Your nickname reminds me that Jason Stryker is on the movie too. Under ice. He looks like a 14 years old kid. I guess that years of torture and experimentation made him age a lot in the 15 years timespan between Origins and X2.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 14, 2022 22:40:14 GMT
JEAN GREY's arc ESSAY Part I.
Firstly, the movie Jean Grey/Phoenix exists in a different continuity to the comic's, as do all the characters who appear in the movies, so there are several creative differences between them (eg - Havok being the older brother of Cyclops, when its vice-versa in the comics, Mystique growing up with Charles etc).
While the comic Phoenix is a separate entity to Jean Grey, The movie Phoenix is Jean's full potential, and Xavier's inadvertently created The Phoenix persona as a separate personality because of his mental blocks, at least that was true in the original timeline...
So here's the movie explanation of Jean Grey/Phoenix.
As seen in a flashback in "Last Stand" shows Jean as a young girl, using her vast powers of telekinesis to lift multiple cars in the neighborhood, and even to cause water to flow upwards instead of downwards, displaying how incredibly powerful she is at a pre-teen age.
Sometime before the events of the first film, Charles decides to erect mental blocks in Jean's mind, to siphon away the majority of her powers (we do not know the exact event that lead to him choosing this option, but expresses to Wolverine in "The Last Stand" that he had a terrible choice and made the lesser of two evils).
As seen in "X-Men" Jean is a low powered mutant with dual abilities of telekinesis and telepathy. She is notably the weakest member of the X-Men, barely able to levitate a chair or book across the room, with her greatest feat in the movie - stopping Toad midair. After her ill advised use of Cerebro or her exposure to Magneto's mutation machine, Jean appears to be visibly shaken and it is thought that her powers have increased.
During "X2" Jean has grown considerably in power, her own powers are now becoming so powerful, Xavier's control is starting to weaken. Jeans powers cause her to hear the thoughts of hundreds of people, causing several minutes of electric failure and mayhem in the localized area, as well as psychic precognition, and later the ability to stop mutants like Nightcrawler using his powers. When the X-jet is attacked by the government, Jean attempts to destroy the two missiles on route to destroy the ship, as Jean struggles to concentrate on her target, her eyes are engulfed in flames and one is destroyed, as she frantically tries to destroy the second, her powers fail and the Jet is hit, sending the team plummeting towards to ground... As the film continues, Jean displays a greater use of her telepathy, allowing her to find out were Stryker's base is from Nightlcrawler and to anticipate and attack from a mid controlled Cyclops, thereby saving Magneto and Mystique. Jean and Cyclops do battle, with the latter blasting Jean with full power - Jean is able to project a telekinetic shield that protects her from the blast but pushes her further and further back, as she begs Scott not to do this, the Phoenix persona overtakes Jean and absorbs the full power of Scott's optic blasts and scatters the beam, causing massive damage in the surrounding area, releasing Scott from the mid control and having the unwanted effect of causing the damn to rupture. After the team escapes the damn, and eventually gets back on board the Jet, Jean has a premonition about what is about to happen, realizing that they will all die, Jean makes the heartbreaking choice to sacrifice herself to save the team, she exits the Jet, and uses her powers to seal the Jet from the outside, blocks the mutants from using their powers to rescue her, takes control of the jet, both electrically and physically, uses her TK to stop the torrent of water from the recently erupted damn, that thretens to drown them all, and lift the team to safety, becoming engulfed in a fiery aura - The Phoenix. As the team realize what has happened, Jean allows herself to be killed by the water, and they escape to safety. Jean is later seen as a fiery bird under the water of the lake that the destruction of the damn created.
After the events of X2, the X-Men, and in particular Scott, are struggling to come to terms with Jean's death. Made harder by the fact that Jean appear's to be tormenting Scott, as he sees visions of her when he is asleep. Deciding he wants closure, Scott travels to the lake where Jean died, angry at the world, he angrily unleashes his optic blasts, he watches confused as the water swirls around, in what appears to be a whirlpool, a blinding light causes him to be knocked backwards, as he arises, he struggles to see a figure emerging from the light... Jean Grey. The couple embrace, both appear to be confused as to how this is happening, Jean removes Scott's optic visor, and proclaims that she can control his power, apprehensive Scott reluctantly opens is eyes, and is shocked that Jean was right, as the couple embrace for a kiss, Jean's eyes become black and her skin produces black-green veins, and she kills and destroy's Scott in cold blood. This display of power alerts Xavier to Jean's presence. So sends Storm and Wolverine to investigate, who find an unconscious Jean, as well as Scott's visor, but no sign of Scott. Xavier uses his powers to keep Jean subdued, noting that her own powers are fighting to regain control, here he explains that Jean is a class 5 mutant, immensely powerful, and that he erected mental blocks at an earlier point in time to "cage the beast" - an incredibly powerful entity was created because of this - that became known as the Phoenix - its sole purpose was fueled by rage. Due to Xavier, the Phoenix and Jean were two separate personality's. Wolverine, horrified that Xavier is the cause of Jean's instability, proclaims that "when you cage the beast, the beast gets angry" Xavier defends himself saying that he had a terrible choice and that he made the lesser of two evil's, and continues to try and subdue the Phoenix from emerging again. Later, Wolverine is alone with Jean, who wakes and converses with him, she begins to seduce wolverine, using her TK to remove items of his clothing, as the two embrace, The Phoenix takes control and once again her eyes turn black and veins appear on her face, using her power to cause rips in Wolverine's flesh, he shows her Scott's visor, causing Jean to retake control and realize that she killed Scott, her powers become unstable and causes the room to shake and medical instruments to float in the air, as Jean sobs, Wolverine mentions the professor - this angers the Phoenix who declares that Xavier is in all their heads, and it retakes control of Jean, it then flings Wolverine against a wall and disintegrates the door to the medical lab, walking out and fleeing the school. Xavier locates Jean at her childhood home, but Magneto was also alerted, by a mutant that can sense others powers, saying that this is like nothing she has felt before and that it is more powerful than even Magneto, knowing exactly who she is describing, Magneto asks "Where is she"? Both men attempt to convince Jean to join them, both arguing that Charles treated her as a child, when in reality she is a "goddess", as Xavier attempts to use his powers to get through to Jean, this angers the Phoenix, who throws Magneto into the kitchen, and uses her TK to lift Xavier up and disintegrate him - literally tearing him apart on a molecular level, killing him. A confused Jean then leaves with Magneto. Later, Magneto attempts to appeal to the Phoenix, to get her to join their fight against humans, showing Jean a gun, whose bullets will remove the powers of anyone it hits, The Phoenix taunts Magneto, breaking the gun apart and using TK to aim the bullets at Magneto, who is horrified and commands her to stop, The Phoenix eventually complies and states that Xavier and Magneto are exactly the same - they both want to control her. At the films climax, the X-Men battle the Brotherhood, with Jean Grey stood watching and not participating, as the X-Men win, and use the bullets to depower Magneto, Wolverine appeals to Jean to re-join the X-Men, Jean is about to accept when the human army mistake her for a threat and open fire, firing hundreds of power blocking bullets at her, the Phoenix once again emerges, angry at everyone, The Phoenix uses TK to stop the bullets from getting near her and proceeds to disintegrate hundred of humans and mutants alike, with very few people escaping her powers, knowing that there is only one way to end this, Wolverine advances towards Jean, his own power of regeneration providing him limited protecting from The Phoenix's destructive powers, as he gets closer to her, The Phoenix states that "He (Wolverine) would die for them?" to which Wolverine responds "No... not for them" this declaration of love allows Jean to retake control, begging Wolverine to Kill her, he complies and all the destruction is stopped.
In "X-Men: Days of Future past" Wolverine's trip to the past, altered the future, e told Charles to look out for Jean, and even showed him visions of what the original timeline was like, showing him what Jean will do with her powers, this likely caused Charles to alter his plans for Jean and allowed her to develop the Phoenix naturally, and in the altered future, Jean and Scott were alive. While it is noteworthy, that Jean had red hair in this future, when before she had access to the Phoenix powers, her hair was brown, so it can be assumed that while Jean does have access to the Phoenix powers, the events of the first three films have been significantly altered, so much that Jean and the Phoenix were one (the duel personality it what ultimately lead to Scott's and her own death).
The Jean Grey in "X-Men: Apocalypse" has many of the powers associated with the Phoenix (fire, pre-cognition etc) as well as her well known powers of Telekinesis and telepathy. We learn that Jean is a somewhat confident young woman who is ostracized by her mutant classmates because of her vast powers, finding comfort with new student Cyclops (who is also feared for his powers) the two accept that they are feared because of their powers and aim to support each other. Jean continues to grow in confidence, becoming the de-facto leader when Mystique is subdued, she effectively commands the team to rescue Xavier and orders them to leave after they have him (knowing that Apocalypse is vastly to powerful to stop), their escape is short lived when Archangel and Psylocke attack the Jet, bringing the vehicle down and they are forced to hide in the ruins of Cairo, Jean and Nightcrawler protect Xavier's body while he telepathically fights Apocalypse, and Mystique, Quicksilver, Cyclops and Beast fight him physically as well as battling his Horsemen. With both groups barely causing any damage to the god like Apocalypse, who uses his exceptionally powerful shield to protect him from all the powers of the X-Men and even overpowers Xavier in their telepathic battle, seeing the destruction Apocalypse is creating, and spurred on by Xavier to unleash her powers (a marked change form the original timeline, Xavier wanted to contain the Phoenix, NOT unleash it) Jean unleashed her true potential and uses TK to levitate herself towards Apocalypse, using her vast powers Jean rips the armor from Apocalypse's body (bypassing his shield, that was impenetrable by lightning, optic blasts and tons of metal) and proceeds to disintegrate Apocalypse on a molecular level, while unleashing the fiery bird aura that the Phoenix is famous for, thereby destroying him. While no other mutant could cause any damage to Apocalypse, he protected himself from all their powers and was even able to adapt to Quicksilvers speed and stop him, Jean was the only one who could hurt him and definitely the only one who could kill him.
So in the original Timeline The Phoenix was a separate personality inadvertently created when Xavier erected mental blocks to control Jean's powers, this personality became vengeful and dark, and contained a large portion of Jean's powers, while they are separate, there are occasions when they united (plane attack, Cyclops attack etc) and Jean could use all of her incredible power, but this was only temporary, and once Jean became unstable, the Phoenix would assert control again. However, because Xavier was warned by the future Wolverine about Jean, he made different choices, highlighted in "X-Men: Apocalypse" and as such, the Phoenix has been allowed to develop naturally inside Jean and there is no duel personality. Meaning Jean has access to the vast array of powers her future self would have had as the Phoenix, but without loosing control, and at a much early point in time, meaning Jean Grey/Phoenix is now one in the same and not two separate entities.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 14, 2022 16:48:31 GMT
You have an opinion and I don't agree with your opinion. I am not sure why people get all bent out of shape because other people dislike a movie that they like. I consider the movie the Batman Forever of the X-Men franchise. Not terrible, but very disappointing and nothing like the previous movie tonally. Even The Last Stand finds a balance between genuine drama and silliness that Origins misses. I respect your opinion. On the other hand, I just think that The Last Stand is a bleak and brilliant superhero movie, very underrated. Origins is the least of the bunch, but still a good movie in its own right. It needed more drama for sure.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 14, 2022 16:27:42 GMT
It's emotional. Logan loses his faith in his brother, loses his love (Kayla) and his memories. He is a betrayed man. That said, I only agree about the Weapon X procedure being softer than the X2 counterpart.
It is suppose to be emotional, but it isn't. It basically writes stuff to be emotional and then handles that stuff in an unemotional/who cares way. That is one of the biggest issues. The previous X-Men movies set up his backstory as being interesting, disturbing and dramatic, but the presentation in X-Men Origins is just silly. I wasn't able to take anything about it seriously. The action scenes aren't very good, it is an uninteresting movie visually and there is stuff that really just doesn't make much sense, like the twist with the girlfriend. It is not what I wanted in my Wolverine movie and I also don't like the fact that it makes him and Sabretooth brothers, and why even introduce Wade Wilson (a fan favorite) and then make him extremely generic? There are other things I don't like too, like how his memory loss is handled. I also don't care for Danny Huston in it, his performance is one-note. Brian Cox added complexity to the character and the relationship that is hinted at in X2 just isn't gotten through in X-Men: Origins. The movie is phoned in.
Honestly, I agree with you that the movie is not "dramatic", but I disagree with you about it not being "emotional". The relationship Logan/Victor was very complex and well-depicted. It's great. There were great visuals, and the action was compelling. Taylor's Gambit was absolutely spot on. Okay, they kinda "ruined" Deadpool, but that monster version of Wade Wilson was scary and frightening. I'm not a Deadpool fan anyway.
It's a solid movie with some interesting plotlines... granted, there were too many characters, and that resembled an X-Men movie too much.
On a side note: do you consider Origins as part of the original timeline of the main universe, or an alternate universe like Logan and the Deadpool movies, Legion and The Gifted?
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 14, 2022 16:02:58 GMT
I don't dislike it as much as some people, but the movie is a mess. The script and directing are all over the place and it completely ruins Deadpool. The movie is entertaining, but it is not a good movie. It is a very frustrated movie, because it wastes what should have been a compelling and emotional origin story.
It's emotional. Logan loses his faith in his brother, loses his love (Kayla) and his memories. He is a betrayed man. That said, I only agree about the Weapon X procedure being softer than the X2 counterpart.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 14, 2022 15:43:13 GMT
You mean "Wolverine: Origins"? I liked it, very underrated. Nowhere as good as "Logan" (my favorite super hero movie), but certainly better than "The Wolverine" (which I just found to be tediously dull) Yes, it's underrated. I don't understand/get the haters' arguments and motivations. I wanna hear them.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 14, 2022 14:41:07 GMT
Screenplay? Direction?
I must say that the movie is good and fun escapism, very entertaining. Also, at the time, it was the most "comic book-ish" entry in the franchise.
I think that many fans were thrown off by Weapon XI/Dead Pool, but that was intended to be an alternate version of the character anyway.
I would add some CGI-superimposed blood on Logan/Wolverine when he awakes after the 'Weapon X' procedure, and would re-do his claws in the bathroom scene.
Other than that, it's fine.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 14, 2022 14:36:40 GMT
Screenplay? Direction?
I must say that the movie is good and fun escapism, very entertaining. Also, at the time, it was the most "comic book-ish" entry in the franchise.
I think that many fans were thrown off by Weapon XI/Dead Pool, but that was intended to be an alternate version of the character anyway.
I would add some CGI-superimposed blood on Logan/Wolverine when he awakes after the 'Weapon X' procedure, and would re-do his claws in the bathroom scene.
Other than that, it's fine.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 13, 2022 18:53:31 GMT
LMAO, you are doing the same with your thesis. Simply saying over and over that something is not character driven is not evidence that it actually is not character driven.
Jean Grey is a crystal-clear fleshed out character in most of the movies. Just watch the movies, it's on there. Not insulting anyone. You're too much delicate.
Normally, it's the person claiming something that needs to be the one to provide proof. Besides, I've provided plenty of proof to back up my point of view, like pointing out that you can't even tell me what kind of development Jean Grey got in X2 compared to X1, or how you can't quite describe to me her personality, likes and dislikes, etc.
LMAO, you're building a house of cards. No MCU character is described in such a detailed way. Jean Grey is a very fleshed out character in X2, we can feel her unconfortable feelings, her fear (of herself), her empathy towards Nightcrawler and the X-Men, her love for Scott.
Remember, X2 paved the way. Too bad MCU writers didn't learn the lesson, and produced parody screenplays featuring Beer Thor, straight squared Captain America and tons of comic reliefs. "Iron Man 3" says hello!
I will wait for your essay on MCU Pepper Potts' personality, likes & dislikes! LMAO.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 11, 2022 1:45:13 GMT
I don't know why people are talking about the movie Logan. The 2017 movie has been aknowledged as being an alternate universe. This means that there's still a younger and not decrepit version of Wolverine inhabiting the mainstream Fox universe.
As simple as that, the fully functional Wolverine in Deadpool 3 will be the same version of the X-Men classic trilogy and Beginnings saga (except the movie Logan), or an interdimensional counterpart like Xavier in Dr. Strange 2.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 11, 2022 0:59:38 GMT
Dear Skaatar,
I know that you're a well-known MCU fanboy here, and you're not lucid and clear. There's no reckoning with MCU fans accustomed to childish and puerile superhero movies aimed at a child audience. That's alright, we know that.
As simple as that, the X-MEN MOVIE/TV SAGA is based on very powerful, developed and fleshed out characters, which had been given great stories and story-arcs:
Wolverine Professor X Magneto Jean Grey/Phoenix - the most pivotal character after Wolverine Mystique Beast Legion Polaris Thunderbird
Cyclops and Storm are the icons of the X-Men, the living symbols of the team. However, Storm is a central character in X2 and X3, while Cyclops is a central character in Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.
That's it. They are brilliant and bleak superhero movies. Masterpieces.
You still haven't offered one shred of evidence to support your assertion despite being asked to multiple times. Simply saying over and over that something is character driven is not evidence that it actually is character driven. Also, insulting the people that merely asked you to back up your assertion is trollish behavior.
LMAO, you are doing the same with your thesis. Simply saying over and over that something is not character driven is not evidence that it actually is not character driven.
Jean Grey is a crystal-clear fleshed out character in most of the movies. Just watch the movies, it's on there. Not insulting anyone. You're too much delicate.
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Post by Martin Brundle - Martinfly on Nov 7, 2022 0:11:56 GMT
As simple as that, the X-MEN MOVIE/TV SAGA is based on very powerful, developed and fleshed out characters, which had been given great stories and story-arcs:
Wolverine Professor X Magneto Jean Grey/Phoenix - the most pivotal character after Wolverine Mystique Beast Legion Polaris Thunderbird
Cyclops and Storm are the icons of the X-Men, the living symbols of the team. However, Storm is a central character in X2 and X3, while Cyclops is a central character in Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.
That's it. They are brilliant and bleak superhero movies. Masterpieces.
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