|
Post by bud47 on Aug 30, 2018 17:49:48 GMT
Apocalypse is formulaic in the MCU sense of the points i listed. But its the exception. Kingberg says Dark Phoneix is a big departure from Apocalypse so no i wont count on it. Magneto shouldnt have been in apocalypse but he plays a key role in others. Mistqiue is only prominent in DOFP. Shes a minor character in Apocalypse. Striker is done. Bathos humour doesnt work. Its why MCU films are just a "fun time at the theatres where you switch youre brain off". Sorry, dont want x films to be that way even if it means they would never be big box office draws. Placing the blame for Apocalypse's failures on the MCU doesn't really work. DOFP was released well after the MCU had hit their stride. You can't imply that the MCU had an effect on one but not the other. Looks more like Singer and Kinberg just ran out of juice. I wouldn't put much faith in what Kinberg says, considering his past as a "director". That's the problem. They rely too much on select characters, while ignoring others that desperately needed attention. Magneto doesn't need to be in every X-film just because he's played well by Fassbender. Mystique had a pretty prominent role in Apocalypse even if she was more central to the plot in DOFP. It even ended with her as the leader of the X-Men. The humor in the MCU films DOES work (most of the time), as evidenced by their continued success. It just doesn't work for YOU, because you prefer your films dark and serious. Not everything needs to be The Dark Knight or DOFP.
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 30, 2018 18:16:42 GMT
and yet smart enough not to suck Marvel formula. That must seem as retarded to you as using toilet paper must seem to a monkey. You know, I see the formula argument keep coming up, but no one has actually specifically argued what is. Enlighten me on what it is. The humor? Oh, so you're allergic to humor or something? Sure the MCU films all have humor in it, but what's formulatic about that? It just helps give the film heart. Other than the humor, what exactly the same? When you introduce new characters and give them origin films, yeah, structurally, they may be similar, but that's kinda unavoidable when you introduce a new character. So is that really a case of being "formulatic"? DC does it as well. Wonder Woman is no different structurally than Captain America. And the last real "origin" film we got was Dr. Strange. Other than though, how is Infinity War, or Black Panther, or Winter Soldier, or Civil War, or Thor: Ragorok all the same? If you say humor, then you officially have no legitimate argument. The only two MCU films that are remotely the same, even I'll admit, are The Avengers and Age of Ultron, as they both have the big bad, then the big bad army of minions. I'll admit to that, but other than, what about them are the same? heureka, it's your lucky fanboy day, I (and others) did a explicit analysis with links on just that subject a year ago - and the thread What is teh MCU Formula was pumped recently by the Hauntedknight87. If he is nice he will link you, or you find in my post history (reposted a few weeks ago) eg with search terms such as hero's journey.
|
|
|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 30, 2018 18:17:36 GMT
Shitstorm cometh!!!
First of all stop crying "whoa is me" like the MCU doesn't have a legion of fanati... I mean fans. Secondly, nobody is lumping them all together and hating them for being the "same" even though that's not true, because we're just trying to be trendy because it's apparently cool to do so.
MCU has the most fanatical and one sided fan base I have ever seen! Even Star Wars fans are willing to criticize their movies, but once someone says anything remotely negative about an MCU movie its...
Nah, you can tell the ones that genuinely don't like or care for the movies and the ones that are not liking them just because. I mean, the hardcore "haters" here say the same things like they are using a script. The funny thing about this statement: "...the hardcore "haters" here say the same things like they are using a script." is that I can honestly say the SAME EXACT THING about the MCU haters when they hate on DCEU. As a matter of fact any criticism you can lob at DCEU fans can be said about MCU fans too. Maybe you don't see it because you skew MCU, but its just as bad.
The only thing that I can say that is honestly true is that BOTH sides have assholes in their midst, and both sides claim the other side is worse.
|
|
|
Post by Hauntedknight87 on Aug 30, 2018 18:28:18 GMT
You know, I see the formula argument keep coming up, but no one has actually specifically argued what is. Enlighten me on what it is. The humor? Oh, so you're allergic to humor or something? Sure the MCU films all have humor in it, but what's formulatic about that? It just helps give the film heart. Other than the humor, what exactly the same? When you introduce new characters and give them origin films, yeah, structurally, they may be similar, but that's kinda unavoidable when you introduce a new character. So is that really a case of being "formulatic"? DC does it as well. Wonder Woman is no different structurally than Captain America. And the last real "origin" film we got was Dr. Strange. Other than though, how is Infinity War, or Black Panther, or Winter Soldier, or Civil War, or Thor: Ragorok all the same? If you say humor, then you officially have no legitimate argument. The only two MCU films that are remotely the same, even I'll admit, are The Avengers and Age of Ultron, as they both have the big bad, then the big bad army of minions. I'll admit to that, but other than, what about them are the same? heureka, it's your lucky fanboy day, I (and others) did a explicit analysis with links on just that subject a year ago - and the thread What is teh MCU Formula was pumped recently by the Hauntedknight87. If he is nice he will link you, or you find in my post history (reposted a few weeks ago) eg with search terms such as hero's journey. imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/35492/marvel-formulaHappy to be a service to you fine gentlemen!
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 30, 2018 18:36:22 GMT
DC fans are less accepting of that formula, they tend to be adults and more demanding. JL demonstrated it.
But you manchildren love your MCU formula; Marvel milks it in large quantities so you can greedily suck it from it's sensitive nipples, until the day you spit it out realizing it's processed raccoon cum.
But aren't DC fans the ones that try to prove that "MARTHA!" is a very bold and sophisticated piece of storytelling? well, I do not know if it can ever be considered "bold" or "sophisticated" to have middle aged men with mommy issues clobber each other. All I can say Martha is a loss less cringe worthy than "I don't care, he killed my mom!" Boooom. I can see why two clobbering heroes resolve their philosophical issues by finding common ground: Saving the ones they love. Here: by rescuing their mothers who (since decades) happen to have the same name. Perfect for Bruce who fail to save his Martha as a kid (Act 1), now given a second chance to save Supes Martha. Cheesy as hell but I at least get the idea. However, I do not get the idea why - middle aged superhero Iron Man - in the middle of a crisis on hostile territory - on a mission to finally make peace&amends with Cap/WS - starts firing rockets and starts clobbering Cap and WS - because he realizes his mommy (who he didn't mention so far) - was killed decades ago by Winter Solder - a man who was brainwashed into a mindless drone by an evil org - and who is a victim himself. That is one of the dumbest, most forced, contrived writings I ever saw. Let's not start on the dumb plan of the villain. Thus "You must save Martha" /5 "I don't care, he killed my MOM!" /5
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 30, 2018 18:38:46 GMT
heureka, it's your lucky fanboy day, I (and others) did a explicit analysis with links on just that subject a year ago - and the thread What is teh MCU Formula was pumped recently by the Hauntedknight87 . If he is nice he will link you, or you find in my post history (reposted a few weeks ago) eg with search terms such as hero's journey. imdb2.freeforums.net/thread/35492/marvel-formulaHappy to be a service to you fine gentlemen! Best mod evah! Super service thx. /5
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Aug 30, 2018 18:45:20 GMT
Magneto X1- great Stryker X2- great Magneto/Dark Phoenix X3- good Sabertooth Origins- good (deadpool doesnt count) Sebastian Shaw FC- good The viper TW- bad Magneto/Trask DOFP- good Apocalypse- bad Donald Pierce/X24 Logan- okay Only 2 terrible. You do realize you're picking and choosing. The fact you say Deadpool doesn't count in Wolverine kinda confirms you're acknowledging that the series has mediocre to shitty villains. Deadpool is a villain for like 10 minutes in the last part of the film. Im picking villains who are from start to last and are the main villain. Same reason i didnt pick Silver samarai but viper instead.
|
|
|
Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 18:46:29 GMT
But aren't DC fans the ones that try to prove that "MARTHA!" is a very bold and sophisticated piece of storytelling? well, I do not know if it can ever be considered "bold" or "sophisticated" to have middle aged men with mommy issues clobber each other. All I can say Martha is a loss less cringe worthy than "I don't care, he killed my mom!" Boooom. I can see why two clobbering heroes resolve their philosophical issues by finding common ground: Saving the ones they love. Here: by rescuing their mothers who (since decades) happen to have the same name. Perfect for Bruce who fail to save his Martha as a kid (Act 1), now given a second chance to save Supes Martha. Cheesy as hell but I at least get the idea. However, I do not get the idea why - middle aged superhero Iron Man - in the middle of a crisis on hostile territory - on a mission to finally make peace&amends with Cap/WS - starts firing rockets and starts clobbering Cap and WS - because he realizes his mommy (who he didn't mention so far) - was killed decades ago by Winter Solder - a man who was brainwashed into a mindless drone by an evil org - and who is a victim himself. That is one of the dumbest, most forced, contrived writings I ever saw. Let's not start on the dumb plan of the villain. Thus "You must save Martha" /5 "I don't care, he killed my MOM!" /5 Actually his affection for his mother and his contempt for his father has been establish in Iron Man 2, and Civil War also solidfy his strained relationship with his father. But there was never a hint of contempt for his mother, and it didn't necessarily need to be shown or spoon-fed. Just because he hated his father, doesn't mean he hated his mother. And believe it or not, kids can hate one parent. Not sure why that's not understandable. And Tony has always been a flawed and compulsive person driven by ego and to an extent, his emotions, thus not thinking before acting. That's basically been established in every one of his appearance. And that's the point because he's flawed and there's nothing wrong with that.
|
|
|
Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 18:48:57 GMT
You do realize you're picking and choosing. The fact you say Deadpool doesn't count in Wolverine kinda confirms you're acknowledging that the series has mediocre to shitty villains. Deadpool is a villain for like 10 minutes in the last part of the film. Im picking villains who are from start to last and are the main villain. Same reason i didnt pick Silver samarai but viper instead. But he was the climatic villain of the movie, much like Silver Samurai is. It really doesn't matter how long they're in the film, they're still a villain.
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Aug 30, 2018 18:50:08 GMT
Actually his affection for his mother and his contempt for his father has been establish in Iron Man 2, and Civil War also solidfy his strained relationship with his father. But there was never a hint of contempt for his mother, and it didn't necessarily need to be shown or spoon-fed. Just because he hated his father, doesn't mean he hated his mother. And believe it or not, kids can hate one parent. Not sure why that's not understandable. And Tony has always been a flawed and compulsive person driven by ego and to an extent, his emotions, thus not thinking before acting. That's basically been established in every one of his appearance. And that's the point because he's flawed and there's nothing wrong with that. He resolved his hate for Howard Stark in IM2 after he watched this old footage
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Aug 30, 2018 18:51:28 GMT
Deadpool is a villain for like 10 minutes in the last part of the film. Im picking villains who are from start to last and are the main villain. Same reason i didnt pick Silver samarai but viper instead. But he was the climatic villain of the movie, much like Silver Samurai is. It really doesn't matter how long they're in the film, they're still a villain. I think it does matter. I wouldnt say Doomsday was THE villain in BvS. It was Lex Luthor. Doomsday just showed up for 10 minutes.
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Aug 30, 2018 18:56:44 GMT
The humor in the MCU films DOES work (most of the time), as evidenced by their continued success. It just doesn't work for YOU, because you prefer your films dark and serious. Not everything needs to be The Dark Knight or DOFP. That "continued success" is because of the formula which consistently brings in family audiences (who know nothing about the source material) and kids. The formula ensures nearly all their films are lighthearted with comedy, family friendly and play it safe aka by the numbers. If Fox Xmen ever went down that route and sold out so they could sell more toys, I would be saying the same thing.
|
|
|
Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 18:57:20 GMT
Actually his affection for his mother and his contempt for his father has been establish in Iron Man 2, and Civil War also solidfy his strained relationship with his father. But there was never a hint of contempt for his mother, and it didn't necessarily need to be shown or spoon-fed. Just because he hated his father, doesn't mean he hated his mother. And believe it or not, kids can hate one parent. Not sure why that's not understandable. And Tony has always been a flawed and compulsive person driven by ego and to an extent, his emotions, thus not thinking before acting. That's basically been established in every one of his appearance. And that's the point because he's flawed and there's nothing wrong with that. He resolved his hate for Howard Stark in IM2 after he watched this old footage Not necessarily. There's a difference between understanding and forgiving. I think he understood Howard and his nelect for him, but doesn't mean he forgave him.
|
|
|
Post by charzhino on Aug 30, 2018 18:59:18 GMT
Not necessarily. There's a difference between understanding and forgiving. I think he understood Howard and his nelect for him, but doesn't mean he forgave him. Well following that footage, Tony basically creates a new element on Howard's blueprint which saves his life. If he doesnt forgive him after that, then hes hard to reason with.
|
|
|
Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 19:03:36 GMT
Not necessarily. There's a difference between understanding and forgiving. I think he understood Howard and his nelect for him, but doesn't mean he forgave him. Well following that footage, Tony basically creates a new element on Howard's blueprint which saves his life. If he doesnt forgive him after that, then hes hard to reason with. And that's kinda the point of his character. He's flawed and driven by his ego. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's supposed to frustrate you if you are, because characters are meant to have flaws.
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 30, 2018 19:09:17 GMT
well, I do not know if it can ever be considered "bold" or "sophisticated" to have middle aged men with mommy issues clobber each other. All I can say Martha is a loss less cringe worthy than "I don't care, he killed my mom!" Boooom. I can see why two clobbering heroes resolve their philosophical issues by finding common ground: Saving the ones they love. Here: by rescuing their mothers who (since decades) happen to have the same name. Perfect for Bruce who fail to save his Martha as a kid (Act 1), now given a second chance to save Supes Martha. Cheesy as hell but I at least get the idea. However, I do not get the idea why - middle aged superhero Iron Man - in the middle of a crisis on hostile territory - on a mission to finally make peace&amends with Cap/WS - starts firing rockets and starts clobbering Cap and WS - because he realizes his mommy (who he didn't mention so far) - was killed decades ago by Winter Solder - a man who was brainwashed into a mindless drone by an evil org - and who is a victim himself. That is one of the dumbest, most forced, contrived writings I ever saw. Let's not start on the dumb plan of the villain. Thus "You must save Martha" /5 "I don't care, he killed my MOM!" /5 Actually his affection for his mother and his contempt for his father has been establish in Iron Man 2, and Civil War also solidfy his strained relationship with his father. But there was never a hint of contempt for his mother, and it didn't necessarily need to be shown or spoon-fed. Just because he hated his father, doesn't mean he hated his mother. And believe it or not, kids can hate one parent. Not sure why that's not understandable. And Tony has always been a flawed and compulsive person driven by ego and to an extent, his emotions, thus not thinking before acting. That's basically been established in every one of his appearance. And t hat's the point because he's flawed and there's nothing wrong with that.ah, the popular "Not the writing is flawed, but the characters" defense in combination with the "let's write the script for them so that it makes sense". If you believe it, it's not a lie. MCU is lucky that they have fans like you.
|
|
|
Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 19:15:08 GMT
Actually his affection for his mother and his contempt for his father has been establish in Iron Man 2, and Civil War also solidfy his strained relationship with his father. But there was never a hint of contempt for his mother, and it didn't necessarily need to be shown or spoon-fed. Just because he hated his father, doesn't mean he hated his mother. And believe it or not, kids can hate one parent. Not sure why that's not understandable. And Tony has always been a flawed and compulsive person driven by ego and to an extent, his emotions, thus not thinking before acting. That's basically been established in every one of his appearance. And t hat's the point because he's flawed and there's nothing wrong with that.ah, the popular "Not the writing is flawed, but the characters" defense in combination with the "let's write the script for them so that it makes sense". If you believe it, it's not a lie. MCU is lucky that they have fans like you. So you'd rather have a hero who's perfect every way and has no flaws?? That's why Wonder Woman isn't as good as many say. She's naive, yes, which they portrayed really well, but there wasn't a hint of stakes or danger for her. And that same argument can be used for Batman in BvS. I hated the way he's portrayed in the film, but he's at least deeply flawed, which is why he continues to go after Superman.
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Aug 30, 2018 19:20:24 GMT
Actually his affection for his mother and his contempt for his father has been establish in Iron Man 2, and Civil War also solidfy his strained relationship with his father. But there was never a hint of contempt for his mother, and it didn't necessarily need to be shown or spoon-fed. Just because he hated his father, doesn't mean he hated his mother. And believe it or not, kids can hate one parent. Not sure why that's not understandable. And Tony has always been a flawed and compulsive person driven by ego and to an extent, his emotions, thus not thinking before acting. That's basically been established in every one of his appearance. And that's the point because he's flawed and there's nothing wrong with that. He resolved his hate for Howard Stark in IM2 after he watched this old footage Nice pull, arguably the best scene in IM 2. Though that doesn't say much for the movie. Anyway, I never thought the scene in CW 'solidified' his strained relationship with his father in the current time, it was merely a memory. Tony was remembering that day with a sense of grief despite his father giving him a hard time, as it was the last time he saw his parents alive.
|
|
|
Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 19:28:33 GMT
He resolved his hate for Howard Stark in IM2 after he watched this old footage Nice pull, arguably the best scene in IM 2. Though that doesn't say much for the movie. Anyway, I never thought the scene in CW 'solidified' his strained relationship with his father in the current time, it was merely a memory. Tony was remembering that day with a sense of grief despite his father giving him a hard time, as it was the last time he saw his parents alive. Another thing to consider is Roger almost "gloated" about knowing Howard and really admiring him and thinking he was a great person, and that probably really ticked Tony because of his childhood. And that's an extension to his own jealousy to because Howard use to talk about Captain America all the time and how great was. Combine that with his own grief for discovering Bucky killed his mother and Rogers is protecting him too, it's a bit understandable why he acted impulsive.
|
|
|
Post by Rey Kahuka on Aug 30, 2018 19:42:29 GMT
Nice pull, arguably the best scene in IM 2. Though that doesn't say much for the movie. Anyway, I never thought the scene in CW 'solidified' his strained relationship with his father in the current time, it was merely a memory. Tony was remembering that day with a sense of grief despite his father giving him a hard time, as it was the last time he saw his parents alive. Another thing to consider is Roger almost "gloated" about knowing Howard and really admiring him and thinking he was a great person, and that probably really ticked Tony because of his childhood. And that's an extension to his own jealousy to because Howard use to talk about Captain America all the time and how great was. Combine that with his own grief for discovering Bucky killed his mother and Rogers is protecting him too, it's a bit understandable why he acted impulsive. I like CW but I've never really bought the conflict that it revolves around. Zemo basically told them the whole thing was a setup and Tony goes along with it anyway. It didn't need to be a fight in the first place, but it really shouldn't have been one at that point. Combine it with the footage recorded by a security camera in the middle of the woods and the whole scene is incredibly clunky. I love the final fight where Cap loses his shit and nearly kills Tony, I just wish they could've found a better way to get there.
|
|