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Post by Isapop on Dec 8, 2018 14:35:41 GMT
I am sorry, but, regarding religious figures you're wrong. The Government & society are not required to treat ALL religious figures equally. Religious figures that are deemed to be evil, or at the very least symbolic of what we understand to be evil, should not be given the same equal footing as religious figures that are to be revered for their Goodness. Saying what you think SHOULD be is no evidence of what actually IS. For you are wrong. Until the Supreme Court changes its mind, government IS required to treat ALL religious figures equally. Rosenberger vs. Univ. of Virginia made clear that if a state allows any religious group a display on state property, then it must allow all religious groups who want one. That is government neutrality toward religion.
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Post by clusium on Dec 8, 2018 14:41:46 GMT
It's not about what is in the US constitution. It is, if we are talking about what the US government is allowed to do. The two are not equivalent, for reasons already explained. There is no requirement for government to treat political ideas and figures equally. There is a requirement for the government to treat religious ideas and figures equally. And all I’m saying is that you’re obviously wrong about that. Yes, the 2 are equivalent. In both cases, there are figures that are either recognized as a)Altruistic or heroic, or b)Villainous & evil. And no, I am not wrong about that. My views are consistent.
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Post by faustus5 on Dec 8, 2018 15:02:55 GMT
Your idiotic thought control has no place in a democracy where people have freedom of speech. And I suppose when it comes to freedom of speech, you support Hate Speech too, right.....? I support the right for people to say hateful things. But I also support the idea that there can be consequences for any kind of speech. If you don't want to tolerate Satanists, you can make fun of them, squawk at them with stupid bullshit about how they'll be suffering in hell, don't buy stuff they make or sell, and so forth. Just don't imagine you have the ability to have the armed force of the state back up your silly ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2018 16:49:47 GMT
Yes, the 2 are equivalent. No, they are not. For reasons already explained. Consistently in error. Question for you - who decides if a religion is "evil"?
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Post by clusium on Dec 8, 2018 19:39:06 GMT
Yes, the 2 are equivalent. No, they are not. For reasons already explained. Consistently in error. Question for you - who decides if a religion is "evil"? It depends upon the "deity" at the centre (whether symbolically, as in the case of Levayan satanists, or literally, such as Luciferian satanists supposedly are). Most world religions teach that there is a Good God or gods, Whom we should worship, & that there are also evil spirits whom we should reject. Therefore, it one decides to make a cult centred upon said evil spirits, then that should be regarded as evil.
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Post by goz on Dec 8, 2018 19:58:12 GMT
No, they are not. For reasons already explained. Consistently in error. Question for you - who decides if a religion is "evil"? It depends upon the "deity" at the centre (whether symbolically, as in the case of Levayan satanists, or literally, such as Luciferian satanists supposedly are). Most world religions teach that there is a Good God or gods, Whom we should worship, & that there are also evil spirits whom we should reject. Therefore, it one decides to make a cult centred upon said evil spirits, then that should be regarded as evil. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Please answer Graham's question as to who decides this (other than you)? This all comes down to the notion that Christians (amongst others) have, that there ACTUALLY IS an objective set of morals and standards in society, when in fact there is not. Over time and within cultures, 'morality' is subjective. What was 'moral' in history, is NOT necessarily considered 'moral' today. Governments can mandate 'laws' to moderate the society, however they cannot and should not mandate what is morality and most particularly what different religious groups consider to be 'morality', because they will al insist that the only moral one is their own. THIS is why there is separation of church and state.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2018 20:07:51 GMT
It depends upon the "deity" at the centre (whether symbolically, as in the case of Levayan satanists, or literally, such as Luciferian satanists supposedly are). Most world religions teach that there is a Good God or gods, Whom we should worship, & that there are also evil spirits whom we should reject. Therefore, it one decides to make a cult centred upon said evil spirits, then that should be regarded as evil. But who specifically gets to decide? Is it you?
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Post by clusium on Dec 8, 2018 23:15:43 GMT
It depends upon the "deity" at the centre (whether symbolically, as in the case of Levayan satanists, or literally, such as Luciferian satanists supposedly are). Most world religions teach that there is a Good God or gods, Whom we should worship, & that there are also evil spirits whom we should reject. Therefore, it one decides to make a cult centred upon said evil spirits, then that should be regarded as evil. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Please answer Graham's question as to who decides this (other than you)? This all comes down to the notion that Christians (amongst others) have, that there ACTUALLY IS an objective set of morals and standards in society, when in fact there is not. Over time and within cultures, 'morality' is subjective. What was 'moral' in history, is NOT necessarily considered 'moral' today. Governments can mandate 'laws' to moderate the society, however they cannot and should not mandate what is morality and most particularly what different religious groups consider to be 'morality', because they will al insist that the only moral one is their own. THIS is why there is separation of church and state. I did answer Graham's question: If the deity at the centre of said-religion is an evil spirit, then the religion itself is evil.
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Post by clusium on Dec 8, 2018 23:17:19 GMT
It depends upon the "deity" at the centre (whether symbolically, as in the case of Levayan satanists, or literally, such as Luciferian satanists supposedly are). Most world religions teach that there is a Good God or gods, Whom we should worship, & that there are also evil spirits whom we should reject. Therefore, it one decides to make a cult centred upon said evil spirits, then that should be regarded as evil. But who specifically gets to decide? Is it you? No, it's not me. It's anybody who knows that: Satan is an evil spirit, Lucifer is an evil spirit, The Mara is an evil spirit, Angra Mainyu is an evil spirit, Iblis is an evil spirit, etc.
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 0:49:29 GMT
But who specifically gets to decide? Is it you? No, it's not me. It's anybody who knows that: Satan is an evil spirit, Lucifer is an evil spirit, The Mara is an evil spirit, Angra Mainyu is an evil spirit, Iblis is an evil spirit, etc. Where does the arbitrary (according to whom?) value judgment stop? and whose is it? Anybody who knows what, exactly?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 9, 2018 0:55:11 GMT
But who specifically gets to decide? Is it you? No, it's not me. It's anybody who knows that: Satan is an evil spirit, Lucifer is an evil spirit, The Mara is an evil spirit, Angra Mainyu is an evil spirit, Iblis is an evil spirit, etc. Evil's greatest deception is convincing people that evil doesn't exist.
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 1:00:45 GMT
No, it's not me. It's anybody who knows that: Satan is an evil spirit, Lucifer is an evil spirit, The Mara is an evil spirit, Angra Mainyu is an evil spirit, Iblis is an evil spirit, etc. Evil's greatest deception is convincing people that evil doesn't exist. What IS evil? Without resorting to claims of a God or Satan, in my world, people make poor choices, do things that are regrettable that hurt or worse to others and there are poor outcomes for many (all people) sometimes. That is life.
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 1:07:58 GMT
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Please answer Graham's question as to who decides this (other than you)? This all comes down to the notion that Christians (amongst others) have, that there ACTUALLY IS an objective set of morals and standards in society, when in fact there is not. Over time and within cultures, 'morality' is subjective. What was 'moral' in history, is NOT necessarily considered 'moral' today. Governments can mandate 'laws' to moderate the society, however they cannot and should not mandate what is morality and most particularly what different religious groups consider to be 'morality', because they will al insist that the only moral one is their own. THIS is why there is separation of church and state. I did answer Graham's question: If the deity at the centre of said-religion is an evil spirit, then the religion itself is evil. There is intrinsically no such thing as 'evil'.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 9, 2018 1:20:33 GMT
Evil's greatest deception is convincing people that evil doesn't exist. What IS evil? Without resorting to claims of a God or Satan, in my world, people make poor choices, do things that are regrettable that hurt or worse to others and there are poor outcomes for many (all people) sometimes. That is life. What IS regrettable? Define please.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 9, 2018 1:21:20 GMT
I did answer Graham's question: If the deity at the centre of said-religion is an evil spirit, then the religion itself is evil. There is intrinsically no such thing as 'evil'. There is intrinsically no such thing as 'homophobia.'
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 1:24:18 GMT
What IS evil? Without resorting to claims of a God or Satan, in my world, people make poor choices, do things that are regrettable that hurt or worse to others and there are poor outcomes for many (all people) sometimes. That is life. What IS regrettable? Define please. ' A regrettable outcome is one that is bad for (usually) all involved, or at least the protagonists.
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 1:25:56 GMT
There is intrinsically no such thing as 'evil'. There is intrinsically no such thing as 'homophobia.' In your mind, maybe not however, in the real world, people discriminating against homosexual people is a bad outcome for all sides.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 9, 2018 1:26:53 GMT
What IS regrettable? Define please. ' A regrettable outcome is one that is bad for (usually) all involved, or at least the protagonists. What IS bad? Who decides if something is bad or not?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 1:59:17 GMT
But who specifically gets to decide? Is it you? No, it's not me. It's anybody who knows that: Satan is an evil spirit, Lucifer is an evil spirit, The Mara is an evil spirit, Angra Mainyu is an evil spirit, Iblis is an evil spirit, etc. Why do you keep ducking the question? "Anyone" cannot make a decision. Who gets to make the decision, clusium? Which specific person or persons in government gets to choose which religions are the good ones and which are the evil ones? I mean, what if, like me, this person thinks that the god of the bible is a fantastically evil being/spirit? Not a wholly unreasonable conclusion, what with all the countless millions of people he murders himself, or orders others to murder. Many of them children. Should my view of that mean that the biblical god can't get the endorsement from government? Or do I not get to have a say? Why not? And what about the satanists who disagree that satan is the evil one? What if one thinks that satan is the good guy and the biblical god is the evil one? Does one get a say in the government's decision then? It seems like all this boils down to is that the government can endorse the religions YOU agree with. And not the ones you don't.
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 3:37:07 GMT
' A regrettable outcome is one that is bad for (usually) all involved, or at least the protagonists. What IS bad? Who decides if something is bad or not? The outcome we don't want.
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