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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 9, 2018 3:39:02 GMT
What IS bad? Who decides if something is bad or not? The outcome we don't want. Interesting, but what if we want different outcomes? Who decides which one is bad and which one is good?
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 3:48:43 GMT
The outcome we don't want. Interesting, but what if we want different outcomes? Who decides which one is bad and which one is good? Congratulations. For once you actually 'get' the point (unlike Clusium) Obviously, these things are opinions and NOT absolute objective morals. People have different opinions depending on the circumstances and the choices available Many things can, and do, influence their decision and the outcomes. What might be a 'good' outcome for one person might be a 'bad' outcome for another person. Hence what one person sees as 'evil' might not be evil to another. just think about the example of homosexuality. To some people the act is abhorrent and to others not, or even pleasurable and wonderful. Take the example of abortion where amother or her unborn might have a fatal illness and an abortion is a blessing to some and an evil act to others.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 9, 2018 3:52:06 GMT
Interesting, but what if we want different outcomes? Who decides which one is bad and which one is good? Congratulations. For once you actually 'get' the point (unlike Clusium) Obviously, these things are opinions and NOT absolute objective morals. People have different opinions depending on the circumstances and the choices available Many things can, and do, influence their decision and the outcomes. What might be a 'good' outcome for one person might be a 'bad' outcome for another person. Hence what one person sees as 'evil' might not be evil to another. just think about the example of homosexuality. To some people the act is abhorrent and to others not, or even pleasurable and wonderful. Take the example of abortion where amother or her unborn might have a fatal illness and an abortion is a blessing to some and an evil act to others. Clusium is a good kid. I wish you would try to not be so jealous of her.
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Post by clusium on Dec 9, 2018 3:58:48 GMT
No, it's not me. It's anybody who knows that: Satan is an evil spirit, Lucifer is an evil spirit, The Mara is an evil spirit, Angra Mainyu is an evil spirit, Iblis is an evil spirit, etc. Where does the arbitrary (according to whom?) value judgment stop? and whose is it? Anybody who knows what, exactly? See Erjen's response.
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Post by clusium on Dec 9, 2018 4:00:34 GMT
I did answer Graham's question: If the deity at the centre of said-religion is an evil spirit, then the religion itself is evil. There is intrinsically no such thing as 'evil'. You mean to say that serial killers are not evil?!?!?! Wow!!! You learn something new everyday!!!!!
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 4:03:40 GMT
Congratulations. For once you actually 'get' the point (unlike Clusium) Obviously, these things are opinions and NOT absolute objective morals. People have different opinions depending on the circumstances and the choices available Many things can, and do, influence their decision and the outcomes. What might be a 'good' outcome for one person might be a 'bad' outcome for another person. Hence what one person sees as 'evil' might not be evil to another. just think about the example of homosexuality. To some people the act is abhorrent and to others not, or even pleasurable and wonderful. Take the example of abortion where amother or her unborn might have a fatal illness and an abortion is a blessing to some and an evil act to others. Clusium is a good kid. I wish you would try to not be so jealous of her. Yes, I have always liked her. Shame she is so brainwashed by the Catholic Church and doesn't use reason and logic in her replies.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 9, 2018 4:06:19 GMT
Clusium is a good kid. I wish you would try to not be so jealous of her. Yes, I have always liked her. Shame she is so brainwashed by the Catholic Church and doesn't use reason and logic in her replies. Who did your brainwashing? Hitchens and Dawkins?
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 4:09:47 GMT
There is intrinsically no such thing as 'evil'. You mean to say that serial killers are not evil?!?!?! Wow!!! You learn something new everyday!!!!! What do you define as evil? Serial killers make catastrophically appalling decisions, act on them and their is a tragic outcome. The is not 'evil'. Evil is a religious notion based around the concept of Satan and an objective morality of bad. See my response to Erjenious about homosexuality and abortion and add in how the Catholic church burned witches, because they thought they were 'evil' when in fact they just were 'different, or more importantly against what the church of the time preached. Add in the Mayan civilization where they made human sacrifices. You would call it 'evil' and I would say it was part of their culture in which they ( misguidedly in our modern eyes) thought it was appeasing THEIR Gods.
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Post by clusium on Dec 9, 2018 4:10:25 GMT
No, it's not me. It's anybody who knows that: Satan is an evil spirit, Lucifer is an evil spirit, The Mara is an evil spirit, Angra Mainyu is an evil spirit, Iblis is an evil spirit, etc. Why do you keep ducking the question? "Anyone" cannot make a decision. Who gets to make the decision, clusium? Which specific person or persons in government gets to choose which religions are the good ones and which are the evil ones? I mean, what if, like me, this person thinks that the god of the bible is a fantastically evil being/spirit? Not a wholly unreasonable conclusion, what with all the countless millions of people he murders himself, or orders others to murder. Many of them children. Should my view of that mean that the biblical god can't get the endorsement from government? Or do I not get to have a say? Why not? And what about the satanists who disagree that satan is the evil one? What if one thinks that satan is the good guy and the biblical god is the evil one? Does one get a say in the government's decision then? It seems like all this boils down to is that the government can endorse the religions YOU agree with. And not the ones you don't. I'm not ducking anything. Who gets to decide that Winston Churchill is a hero, but, Adolf Hitler is a villain? God Is the SUPREME CREATOR of all that there is. Life on Earth BELONGS to Him. Therefore, when God Takes a life, it is not murder. A person who lives to be well over a 100 years, and dies of natural causes, still dies by the Hand Of God. It was God Who Made the Commandment, Thou shalt not kill. **WE** are not to take human life. Referring back to my Winston Churchill & Adolf Hitler analogy: There are still people who idolize Hitler , & view Churchill as the villain.
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 4:12:23 GMT
Yes, I have always liked her. Shame she is so brainwashed by the Catholic Church and doesn't use reason and logic in her replies. Who did your brainwashing? Hitchens and Dawkins? I am aware of them however I have never read anything by them. I guess a liberal upbringing, a tertiary education, further education, wide reading, wide travel interesting discussions of many years and the application of reason and logic to the material that I have absorbed over my life is to blame.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Dec 9, 2018 4:13:48 GMT
Who did your brainwashing? Hitchens and Dawkins? I am aware of them however I have never read anything by them. I guess a liberal upbringing, a tertiary education, further education, wide reading, wide travel interesting discussions of many years and the application of reason and logic to the material that I have absorbed over my life is to blame. Me too!
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 4:18:48 GMT
Why do you keep ducking the question? "Anyone" cannot make a decision. Who gets to make the decision, clusium? Which specific person or persons in government gets to choose which religions are the good ones and which are the evil ones? I mean, what if, like me, this person thinks that the god of the bible is a fantastically evil being/spirit? Not a wholly unreasonable conclusion, what with all the countless millions of people he murders himself, or orders others to murder. Many of them children. Should my view of that mean that the biblical god can't get the endorsement from government? Or do I not get to have a say? Why not? And what about the satanists who disagree that satan is the evil one? What if one thinks that satan is the good guy and the biblical god is the evil one? Does one get a say in the government's decision then? It seems like all this boils down to is that the government can endorse the religions YOU agree with. And not the ones you don't. I'm not ducking anything. Who gets to decide that Winston Churchill is a hero, but, Adolf Hitler is a villain? God Is the SUPREME CREATOR of all that there is. Life on Earth BELONGS to Him. Therefore, when God Takes a life, it is not murder. A person who lives to be well over a 100 years, and dies of natural causes, still dies by the Hand Of God. It was God Who Made the Commandment, Thou shalt not kill. **WE** are not to take human life. Referring back to my Winston Churchill & Adolf Hitler analogy: There are still people who idolize Hitler , & view Churchill as the villain. and Laughingly, I think you answer these questions yourself. That is your church's dogma and your opinion. It is NOT a universal truth, even though you think it is. AGAIN, what about the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic Church's killing of witches or heretics or anyone who disagreed with them?
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Post by clusium on Dec 9, 2018 4:20:35 GMT
You mean to say that serial killers are not evil?!?!?! Wow!!! You learn something new everyday!!!!! What do you define as evil? Serial killers make catastrophically appalling decisions, act on them and their is a tragic outcome. The is not 'evil'. Evil is a religious notion based around the concept of Satan and an objective morality of bad. See my response to Erjenious about homosexuality and abortion and add in how the Catholic church burned witches, because they thought they were 'evil' when in fact they just were 'different, or more importantly against what the church of the time preached. Add in the Mayan civilization where they made human sacrifices. You would call it 'evil' and I would say it was part of their culture in which they ( misguidedly in our modern eyes) thought it was appeasing THEIR Gods. Serial killers intentionally take the lives of other human beings. They are a danger to their fellow human beings. That is why we imprison them, to protect society. While admittedly, some killers may repent in the long run (doesn't necessarily mean that they should ever be allowed to see freedom again), others go to their graves, PROUD of themselves. Eg: John Wayne Gacy (his last words before being executed were "kiss my ass"), & Clifford Olson (he SOLD the bodies of his victims to the police, & throughout his time in prison, he regularly sued the Canadian Judical System, his victims' families, etc. He died of natural causes a few years ago. Nobody was sorry to see him go). You are right about the ancient Mayan culture offering human sacrifices. That is why it is great, that they no longer practice it (human sacrifice), when they converted to Christianity.
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 4:27:12 GMT
I am aware of them however I have never read anything by them. I guess a liberal upbringing, a tertiary education, further education, wide reading, wide travel interesting discussions of many years and the application of reason and logic to the material that I have absorbed over my life is to blame. Me too! Yes, I have noticed that about you. If you just gave up the University of YouTube and took a mainstream online Tertiary course, you would be so much more interesting to talk to! Mind you, you would have nothing left to talk to Molar about butt that might be a blessing!
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Post by clusium on Dec 9, 2018 4:46:43 GMT
I'm not ducking anything. Who gets to decide that Winston Churchill is a hero, but, Adolf Hitler is a villain? God Is the SUPREME CREATOR of all that there is. Life on Earth BELONGS to Him. Therefore, when God Takes a life, it is not murder. A person who lives to be well over a 100 years, and dies of natural causes, still dies by the Hand Of God. It was God Who Made the Commandment, Thou shalt not kill. **WE** are not to take human life. Referring back to my Winston Churchill & Adolf Hitler analogy: There are still people who idolize Hitler , & view Churchill as the villain. and Laughingly, I think you answer these questions yourself. That is your church's dogma and your opinion. It is NOT a universal truth, even though you think it is. AGAIN, what about the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic Church's killing of witches or heretics or anyone who disagreed with them? It was wrong of the Church to act out Capital Punishment in the past. The Catholic Church is made up of human beings, & human beings are all sinners. Pope John Paul II himself acknowledged that it was wrong of the Church to have done all these things.
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 5:01:19 GMT
and Laughingly, I think you answer these questions yourself. That is your church's dogma and your opinion. It is NOT a universal truth, even though you think it is. AGAIN, what about the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic Church's killing of witches or heretics or anyone who disagreed with them? It was wrong of the Church to act out Capital Punishment in the past. The Catholic Church is made up of human beings, & human beings are all sinners. Pope John Paul II himself acknowledged that it was wrong of the Church to have done all these things. ...and yet you are still a member of this corrupt Church? So, they don't kill people now, they just abuse children in orphanages and allow their priests to sexually abuse children instead? Seriously! What are you thinking if you carry one about 'evil' and sin? YOUR CHURCH excuses these abominations!
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 5:06:20 GMT
What do you define as evil? Serial killers make catastrophically appalling decisions, act on them and their is a tragic outcome. The is not 'evil'. Evil is a religious notion based around the concept of Satan and an objective morality of bad. See my response to Erjenious about homosexuality and abortion and add in how the Catholic church burned witches, because they thought they were 'evil' when in fact they just were 'different, or more importantly against what the church of the time preached. Add in the Mayan civilization where they made human sacrifices. You would call it 'evil' and I would say it was part of their culture in which they ( misguidedly in our modern eyes) thought it was appeasing THEIR Gods. Serial killers intentionally take the lives of other human beings. They are a danger to their fellow human beings. That is why we imprison them, to protect society. While admittedly, some killers may repent in the long run (doesn't necessarily mean that they should ever be allowed to see freedom again), others go to their graves, PROUD of themselves. Eg: John Wayne Gacy (his last words before being executed were "kiss my ass"), & Clifford Olson (he SOLD the bodies of his victims to the police, & throughout his time in prison, he regularly sued the Canadian Judical System, his victims' families, etc. He died of natural causes a few years ago. Nobody was sorry to see him go). You are right about the ancient Mayan culture offering human sacrifices. That is why it is great, that they no longer practice it (human sacrifice), when they converted to Christianity. blah blah blah...missing the major points again. People do what we now, or their society said were either 'good' or 'bad' things throughout history according to the thinking of the time hence there is NO objective 'good' and 'evil'. You mean that same Christianity which was burning witches and heretics back in Europe about the same time?
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Post by clusium on Dec 9, 2018 5:29:22 GMT
It was wrong of the Church to act out Capital Punishment in the past. The Catholic Church is made up of human beings, & human beings are all sinners. Pope John Paul II himself acknowledged that it was wrong of the Church to have done all these things. ...and yet you are still a member of this corrupt Church? So, they don't kill people now, they just abuse children in orphanages and allow their priests to sexually abuse children instead? Seriously! What are you thinking if you carry one about 'evil' and sin? YOUR CHURCH excuses these abominations! Actually, the Catholic Church condemns the sexual sin as a **HORRIBLE EVIL!!** The Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 2356: Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. GRAVER STILL IS THE RAPE OF CHILDREN COMMITTED BY PARENTS (INCEST) OR THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EDUCATION OF THE CHILDREN ENTRUSTED TO THEM. (My emphasis.) More importantly than the Catechism of the Catholic Church, are the Very Words Of Christ Himself, regarding those that abuse children: St. Matthew chapter 18, verse 6: "If anyone causes any one of these that believe in Me to stumble, it is better that he has a large millstone tied around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
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Post by goz on Dec 9, 2018 5:36:43 GMT
...and yet you are still a member of this corrupt Church? So, they don't kill people now, they just abuse children in orphanages and allow their priests to sexually abuse children instead? Seriously! What are you thinking if you carry one about 'evil' and sin? YOUR CHURCH excuses these abominations! Actually, the Catholic Church condemns the sexual sin as a **HORRIBLE EVIL!!** The Catechism of the Catholic Church, # 2356: Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. GRAVER STILL IS THE RAPE OF CHILDREN COMMITTED BY PARENTS (INCEST) OR THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EDUCATION OF THE CHILDREN ENTRUSTED TO THEM. (My emphasis.) More importantly than the Catechism of the Catholic Church, are the Very Words Of Christ Himself, regarding those that abuse children: St. Matthew chapter 18, verse 6: "If anyone causes any one of these that believe in Me to stumble, it is better that he has a large millstone tied around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." So, you still support this hypocrisy of your Church? They say this shit and DO the opposite, endemically and then excuse it and/or gloss over the worst offences.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 11:34:07 GMT
I'm not ducking anything. Who gets to decide that Winston Churchill is a hero, but, Adolf Hitler is a villain? The government does, because they are allowed to make that distinction. They're not allowed to do the same with religion. Sorry, conclusion does not follow from the premise. Assuming there were a god, the fact that he/she/it is the "supreme creator" does not mean that people belong to god or that god has a right to kill people. And you demonstrate one of the evils of christianity - the fact that it can convince otherwise good and decent people that slavery and murder is acceptable. You can be a slave if you want to, but I am not. I belong to nobody but myself, and I will not accept the evil of slavery or murder from anybody. And since christianity is evil, according to you we can therefore disallow christianity from the public square.
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