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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 1, 2017 18:34:33 GMT
You mean the 1st Avengers movie where no one knew who any of them were? I'm about talking about SHEILD making weapons in response to the events of Thor. They weren't afraid of Thor when they made those weapons. They realized they aren't alone in the universe and made weapons to battle aliens. Not Thor. In the end, they knew Thor was there to help.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Mar 1, 2017 19:09:29 GMT
I'm about talking about SHEILD making weapons in response to the events of Thor. They weren't afraid of Thor when they made those weapons. They realized they aren't alone in the universe and made weapons to battle aliens. Not Thor. In the end, they knew Thor was there to help. I know. That's why I said "kinda".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 19:28:01 GMT
I'm not arguing that it CAN'T be done. Just that it shouldn't be done. Marvel doesn't have the bandwidth, and they won't take the chances that Fox will take. Actually, Marvel does. It's getting to the point they can just add Thor into an Ant-Man movie instead of making a Thor and an Ant-Man movie. They are putting out 3 movies a year. Before Fox realized they were falling behind with these comic book movies, they were putting out X-men movies (including X-men Origins) every 3 years. Now they are trying to put out 1 every year or so (sometimes 2 in a years time). Now think about when they bring out individually titles movies. The Captain America movies didn't come out every year. Sure he was in the 2 Avengers movies, but those aren't Captain America movies. Who's not to say that they can't bring out an X-men movie every 3 years and have them appear in other character's movies? And Fox aren't taking any chances. They are followers. All their movies you can see influence from other movies. Even Logan is following from what Deadpool did and Deadpool was a "Here's a dollar get away from me, kid" movie. Fox didn't know what they were getting from Deadpool and they didn't care. Now that it's the highest grossing X-men film, they care a lot. Also, what chances did they take in the X-men movies? Killing off main characters? The same main characters they brought back? Since he is still dead, doesn't that mean that the MCU took a bigger risk with Quicksilver? Disney would never make the type of Deadpool and Logan movies that we got and are getting. That's a fact, Jack. I'm not interested in the MCU monopolizing everything. Sounds awful.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Mar 1, 2017 19:34:46 GMT
People are afraid of Hulk because of the power he holds, similar to Mutants. I mean they are afraid of them possibly abusing their powers. Like Kitty walking into a bank vault to steal money as Senator Kelly says in X1. A boy using his power to make his mother kill herself like in X2. Or like Mystique disguising herself as the president and ording a nuclear strike, which Trask says in DOFP. Again, those are excuses the characters in the movies are using to get a point across. Kelly wants to get mutants registered so he'll use something that'd make people afraid (like easy home invasion). Trask wants to get his robots built so he'll go to that extreme and scare some government guys into thinking someone will trick them into launching nukes. What they are basically doing is the same as politicians now saying that all Muslims will come for you to scare everyone. And Stryker... he played that victim card. This was the same guy experimenting on mutants (now we know with Trask). Of course he'd hate his parents knowing that his father was experimenting on mutants. That is a fire that Mutants themselves sparked. Guys like Kelly and Trask only added gas to the fire. In First Class the military turned to kill the mutants on the island because of what Shaw tried to pull and feared it happening again. In Apocalypse there were still people who feared Mutants without any open anti-mutant push. Then there is the controversy at the end of that film.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2017 23:03:23 GMT
If the MCU had the X-Men, they'd be more about the internal conflicts within the team and them struggling with stuff like whether or not Xavier's way (hiding) is really doing any good. Instead of it being about Xavier and Magneto's differences, with Magneto eating up screentime, it would be more about the X-Men conflicting with themselves. I think that would work out pretty well. Except that was already explored with First Class. You know, with Xavier trying to keep Mystique hidden and that is what drives her into Magneto's arms? That was also touched upon in Days of Future Past. I strongly doubt a rehashing story lines from films that came out less than 10 years ago would be a good idea. That's not internal conflict among the X-Men, I'm talking stuff like Cyclops and Storm and Jean conflicting with one another. Using Magneto and Mystique is a cop-out. As for why people fear mutants but not the Avengers, if a hypothetical MCU X-Men story actually acknowledged this and addressed it then it would be a good story.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Mar 1, 2017 23:08:06 GMT
Except that was already explored with First Class. You know, with Xavier trying to keep Mystique hidden and that is what drives her into Magneto's arms? That was also touched upon in Days of Future Past. I strongly doubt a rehashing story lines from films that came out less than 10 years ago would be a good idea. That's not internal conflict among the X-Men, I'm talking stuff like Cyclops and Storm and Jean conflicting with one another. Using Magneto and Mystique is a cop-out. As for why people fear mutants but not the Avengers, if a hypothetical MCU X-Men story actually acknowledged this and addressed it then it would be a good story. What you are saying is "do the same thing but with different character". Beast and Mystique were conflicting with one and other on this as well. Doing it with different characters wouldn't feel fresh at all.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2017 23:24:01 GMT
That's not internal conflict among the X-Men, I'm talking stuff like Cyclops and Storm and Jean conflicting with one another. Using Magneto and Mystique is a cop-out. As for why people fear mutants but not the Avengers, if a hypothetical MCU X-Men story actually acknowledged this and addressed it then it would be a good story. What you are saying is "do the same thing but with different character". Beast and Mystique were conflicting with one and other on this as well. Doing it with different characters wouldn't feel fresh at all. Doing it with actual X-Men who are part of the team proper instead of someone who isn't an actual X-Man means something. IE, Xavier is incapacitated at the start of the story. The movie then is mostly about the X-Men butting heads over who really runs the School and the X-Men now. Some of the X-Men think that Xavier's way of hiding isn't really doing much good and they want to go public so they can make a proactive difference. Others want to stay hidden and be purely reactive. This is where the conflict comes from. Then at the end of the story Xavier revives, he lets them know he was able to start observing things psychically before he could communicate verbally and he's come to the conclusion that things DO need to be changed. He calls a Press Conference where he openly states he's a Mutant and runs a Mutant School. Thus actually CHANGING the status quo and giving future movies a genuine shake-up.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Mar 1, 2017 23:34:46 GMT
What you are saying is "do the same thing but with different character". Beast and Mystique were conflicting with one and other on this as well. Doing it with different characters wouldn't feel fresh at all. Doing it with actual X-Men who are part of the team proper instead of someone who isn't an actual X-Man means something. IE, Xavier is incapacitated at the start of the story. The movie then is mostly about the X-Men butting heads over who really runs the School and the X-Men now. Some of the X-Men think that Xavier's way of hiding isn't really doing much good and they want to go public so they can make a proactive difference. Others want to stay hidden and be purely reactive. This is where the conflict comes from. Then at the end of the story Xavier revives, he lets them know he was able to start observing things psychically before he could communicate verbally and he's come to the conclusion that things DO need to be changed. He calls a Press Conference where he openly states he's a Mutant and runs a Mutant School. Thus actually CHANGING the status quo and giving future movies a genuine shake-up. That doesn't mean squat since the vast majority of movie goers are not comic readers. Those people likely only make up less than 1% of the audience. Xavier being incapacitated and revived also sounds familiar.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2017 23:37:10 GMT
Doing it with actual X-Men who are part of the team proper instead of someone who isn't an actual X-Man means something. IE, Xavier is incapacitated at the start of the story. The movie then is mostly about the X-Men butting heads over who really runs the School and the X-Men now. Some of the X-Men think that Xavier's way of hiding isn't really doing much good and they want to go public so they can make a proactive difference. Others want to stay hidden and be purely reactive. This is where the conflict comes from. Then at the end of the story Xavier revives, he lets them know he was able to start observing things psychically before he could communicate verbally and he's come to the conclusion that things DO need to be changed. He calls a Press Conference where he openly states he's a Mutant and runs a Mutant School. Thus actually CHANGING the status quo and giving future movies a genuine shake-up. That doesn't mean squat since the vast majority of movie goers are not comic readers. Those people likely only make up less than 1% of the audience. Xavier being incapacitated and revived also sounds familiar. It does mean that the writers would show they actually cared about the Heroes first and foremost rather than take the lazy way out of making the movie about the villain with the X-Men as "people who oppose the villain but not much more." As for Xavier, at least here it would end up in something new than the same old. Outing him and the School would mean they wouldn't be able to just go back to the status quo the way Fox kept doing.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Mar 2, 2017 3:37:19 GMT
That doesn't mean squat since the vast majority of movie goers are not comic readers. Those people likely only make up less than 1% of the audience. Xavier being incapacitated and revived also sounds familiar. It does mean that the writers would show they actually cared about the Heroes first and foremost rather than take the lazy way out of making the movie about the villain with the X-Men as "people who oppose the villain but not much more." As for Xavier, at least here it would end up in something new than the same old. Outing him and the School would mean they wouldn't be able to just go back to the status quo the way Fox kept doing. Again, why should the general audience care about this rehash? Except him and the school being outted also happened in X2...
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 2, 2017 4:20:37 GMT
It does mean that the writers would show they actually cared about the Heroes first and foremost rather than take the lazy way out of making the movie about the villain with the X-Men as "people who oppose the villain but not much more." As for Xavier, at least here it would end up in something new than the same old. Outing him and the School would mean they wouldn't be able to just go back to the status quo the way Fox kept doing. Again, why should the general audience care about this rehash? Except him and the school being outted also happened in X2... It's not a rehash, the prior movies haven't really focused on the X-Men enough because they're too wrapped up in making the villains the real stars of the movie. And no, they weren't outed. We saw no consequences of this in X3. It was like they forgot about the school.
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Mar 2, 2017 4:25:45 GMT
Again, why should the general audience care about this rehash? Except him and the school being outted also happened in X2... It's not a rehash, the prior movies haven't really focused on the X-Men enough because they're too wrapped up in making the villains the real stars of the movie. And no, they weren't outed. We saw no consequences of this in X3. It was like they forgot about the school. Except the X-Men have had more screentime than the villians. And you don't consider Beast a X-Man? Yes, they were. The president and other officials knew all about this and this was further confirmed in X3.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 2, 2017 20:08:46 GMT
It's not a rehash, the prior movies haven't really focused on the X-Men enough because they're too wrapped up in making the villains the real stars of the movie. And no, they weren't outed. We saw no consequences of this in X3. It was like they forgot about the school. Except the X-Men have had more screentime than the villians. And you don't consider Beast a X-Man? Yes, they were. The president and other officials knew all about this and this was further confirmed in X3. Nope, X1 revolved all about Magneto's scheme and Stryker had most of everything to do with X2's plot. The heroes did nothing but react to them, and it fell to the other villains of X2 (Magneto and Mystique) to be proactive. X3 showed no consequences of the School being outed. At all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 23:00:40 GMT
I don't like the X-Men films, either, but your stance confuses me, samhmd. Isn't Tony Stark's ascent to becoming Ironman also in reaction to what happened to him in the first film? With no Red Skull or Hydra, there is no Captain America. So I fail to see how X-Men 1 revolving around Magneto's scheme is really any different. Make no mistake, I agree with you that there's not much to their characters, but even the MCU has a pretty straightforward "Villains do something bad/heroes react to stop them" story system, except with a lot more character agency and development.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 3, 2017 13:19:09 GMT
I don't like the X-Men films, either, but your stance confuses me, samhmd. Isn't Tony Stark's ascent to becoming Ironman also in reaction to what happened to him in the first film? With no Red Skull or Hydra, there is no Captain America. So I fail to see how X-Men 1 revolving around Magneto's scheme is really any different. Make no mistake, I agree with you that there's not much to their characters, but even the MCU has a pretty straightforward "Villains do something bad/heroes react to stop them" story system, except with a lot more character agency and development. Tony becoming Iron Man was a reaction, but after that he's totally pro-active. Same with Cap. The X-Men, by contrast, never do ANYTHING unless a villain is up to something. We should be seeing Xavier writing up proposals to the Government without any anti-Mutant guy speaking against mutants, we should see them proactively trying to discredit any future anti-mutant stuff. Instead all they do is sit around their Mansion happy the way things are. For his talk about making things better for Humans and Mutants, Xavier is pretty bad at his self-proclaimed job.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 20:04:32 GMT
Alright, now I get what you're saying. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 4, 2017 3:18:28 GMT
This is the problem....for years X-Men has suffered from hack writers who never knew how to properly deal with the premise.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 3:26:17 GMT
This is why I stick with the 90s animated series. They were actually heroes there.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 4, 2017 4:19:05 GMT
This is why I stick with the 90s animated series. They were actually heroes there. Since we're being honest, I'll admit I liked X-Men Evolution the most. Mainly because of such a great job they did with Cyclops' character.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 4:22:57 GMT
I haven't had the chance to see much of X-Men Evolution, but I have liked what I saw. It's just kinda hard to get a hold of.
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