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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 22, 2017 22:48:01 GMT
Not one shot of Rey flying the Falcon! Not one shot of Rey saving Finn from the Rathtars. Not one shot of Rey shooting her blaster at the Stormtroopers. Not one shot of Rey fighting Kylo with lightsabers in the forest. (Just Finn doing it). Just Rey with tears in her eyes bending over on the snowy ground when she looked up at the Millennium Falcon coming to pick her (and Finn) up. If anyone thinks all of this wasn't deliberate then they must want to go swimming in Egypt because they're obviously in de Nile (denial). But those were big moments for Rey. Not for Finn. Rey pulling the lightsaber from the snow was Rey's moment. Why spoil that in the trailer? You'd know that she was the one to pull the lightsaber if they showed her fighting. And showing Han and Chewie didn't lead us to believe that they were flying the Falcon. They even showed them in the Falcon saying they are home. Again, this is you being led away from what was actually in the trailers then blaming others for your misdirection. You're being shown some pictures that goes along with what happens in the movie and you think this is some kind of proof. No, this is still you wanting the narrative to go your way when it doesn't. The pictures only show a guy with a lightsaber. That's like being shown a picture of Han cutting open the Tauntaun and saying that Han will become a Jedi. Name me one other SW movie where the action and heroism of one the main protagonists was never included or totally removed from the trailers besides TFA?.......................... .........😶...(hint: I already know the answer to this question) ...🕐.....🕜..... You really think that's a random coincidence?
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Post by audiosane on Apr 23, 2017 7:59:15 GMT
Finn never once behaved like he was brainwashed. He was always portrayed as a well-socialized normal person who was panicky and cowardly at times. He was afraid of his first time going out into battle. Overriding fear broke the brainwashing during that 1st scene. There is a scene where they are talking about him and needing to re-up his brainwashing. Show, don't tell. We never once saw Finn acting brainwashed or struggling with it throughout the remainder of the film. He always behaved like an ordinary person.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 23, 2017 8:18:28 GMT
They didn't have to outright say Finn was going to be a Jedi apprentice. Why do you think Disney's marketing went out of their way to ONLY show Finn wielding Luke's lightsaber in the trailers and posters? You think that's an accident? No, they used him to hide Rey's big reveal. Never before has Star Wars' marketing campaign been deceptive. Never before have we ever seen someone fight with a lightsaber who didn't at least have some training with it. Finn was used and disrespected for Rey's benefit. Maybe because he used a lightsaber through the movie. Rey only used it once. The one time she touched it she ran away from it. So, no, the ads for it was not deceptive. And just because we have never seen a non-Jedi use one in battle doesn't mean they can't. It was never said that only Jedi can use them. It was only said that they are a Jedi's weapon. Also, Luke had no training in fighting with a lightsaber (only blocking lasers), but he used it just fine. Why would they force someone who was never confirmed to either be Force sensitive or trained with lightsabers to use it twice in the movie? Knowing how Finn's lightsaber fights ended, why would Disney's marketing go out of their way to ONLY show Finn wielding it? You said Rey only used it once. That's more than enough to put some of the footage in the trailers and/or posters, but they never did. They also never showed Rey touching the lightsaber or talking about it. They were very careful about this. Why do you think they did this? How are the ads not deceptive? They go out of their way to only show Finn with the lightsaber, only to have him get his ass kicked twice in those fights before winding up in a coma. Meanwhile, the female lead, who was never once showed with it in the marketing, ended up being Force sensitive and the very one to whom the lightsaber called. This is a no-brainer. I never said Force sensitives couldn't use lightsabers. That's why I made sure to say: I had General Grievous in mind when I said that. My point is that a prerequisite to fighting with a lightsaber was establishing that the wielder was at least reasonably competent first. Obi-Wan and Vader were both Jedi back in the day. Luke was Force sensitive and had some training before he fought Vader in ESB. Maul was trained by Sidious, etc. Without any confirmed Force sensitivity or lightsaber training, Finn was forced to wield this weapon. What's more, Disney went out of their way to only show him with it. This was no accident. It's unfortunate that you choose to ignore something so obvious. We didn't need to specifically see Luke train with the lightsaber beyond the basics in ANH. ESB took place 3 years later, and Luke trained on screen with Yoda. There was enough there to recognize that Luke had trained off screen periodically, which improved his lightsaber ability. Plus, they were showing that Luke's concern for his friends tempted him to rush his training at his own peril.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 23, 2017 8:45:48 GMT
Maybe because he used a lightsaber through the movie. Rey only used it once. The one time she touched it she ran away from it. So, no, the ads for it was not deceptive. And just because we have never seen a non-Jedi use one in battle doesn't mean they can't. It was never said that only Jedi can use them. It was only said that they are a Jedi's weapon. Also, Luke had no training in fighting with a lightsaber (only blocking lasers), but he used it just fine. Why would they force someone who was never confirmed to either be Force sensitive or trained with lightsabers to use it twice in the movie? Knowing how Finn's lightsaber fights ended, why would Disney's marketing go out of their way to ONLY show Finn wielding it? You said Rey only used it once. That's more than enough to put some of the footage in the trailers and/or posters, but they never did. They also never showed Rey touching the lightsaber or talking about it. They were very careful about this. Why do you think they did this? How are the ads not deceptive? They go out of their way to only show Finn with the lightsaber, only to have him get his ass kicked twice in those fights before winding up in a coma. Meanwhile, the female lead, who was never once showed with it in the marketing, ended up being Force sensitive and the very one to whom the lightsaber called. This is a no-brainer. I never said Force sensitives couldn't use lightsabers. That's why I made sure to say: I had General Grievous in mind when I said that. My point is that a prerequisite to fighting with a lightsaber was establishing that the wielder was at least reasonably competent first. Obi-Wan and Vader were both Jedi back in the day. Luke was Force sensitive and had some training before he fought Vader in ESB. Maul was trained by Sidious, etc. Without any confirmed Force sensitivity or lightsaber training, Finn was forced to wield this weapon. What's more, Disney went out of their way to only show him with it. This was no accident. It's unfortunate that you choose to ignore something so obvious. We didn't need to specifically see Luke train with the lightsaber beyond the basics in ANH. ESB took place 3 years later, and Luke trained on screen with Yoda. There was enough there to recognize that Luke had trained off screen periodically, which improved his lightsaber ability. Plus, they were showing that Luke's concern for his friends tempted him to rush his training at his own peril. Great point! Right before General Grievous started his lightsaber duel with ObiWan he said "You fool! I've been trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku!"..... Training.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 23, 2017 8:56:10 GMT
Great pix and great points!... The more I think about it the more right you are about them being deceitful with those TFA trailers. In addition to what you brought out here, they hid Rey being the action hero. We saw the Millennium Falcon doing those acrobatics on Jakku, then we see Han and Chewie so we're led to believe Han was flying. Not one shot of Rey flying the Falcon! Not one shot of Rey saving Finn from the Rathtars. Not one shot of Rey shooting her blaster at the Stormtroopers. Not one shot of Rey fighting Kylo with lightsabers in the forest. (Just Finn doing it). Just Rey with tears in her eyes bending over on the snowy ground when she looked up at the Millennium Falcon coming to pick her (and Finn) up. If anyone thinks all of this wasn't deliberate then they must want to go swimming in Egypt because they're obviously in de Nile (denial). Thank you so much. I also appreciate you pointing these things out. Besides the lightsaber/Jedi stuff, the trailers never gave the impression that Rey was a Mary Sue or that Finn was a bumbling comic relief sidekick. Sure, he was panicky and breathed hard at times, but we also saw him wielding the lightsaber like a badass and looking like a normal main character. Same goes for Kylo Ren never looking like a temper tantrum-throwing emo kid.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Apr 23, 2017 9:35:58 GMT
But they never said that he would be a Jedi apprentice. The movie had him with a lightsaber for a good chunk of the movie. A call back to when Stormtroopers were going to also have lightsabers in the 1st movie. People thinking that he would be a Jedi apprentice was what they took away from it because they thought that a Stormtrooper was going to be the new Luke. They didn't have to outright say Finn was going to be a Jedi apprentice. Why do you think Disney's marketing went out of their way to ONLY show Finn wielding Luke's lightsaber in the trailers and posters? You think that's an accident? No, they used him to hide Rey's big reveal. Never before has Star Wars' marketing campaign been deceptive. Never before have we ever seen someone fight with a lightsaber who didn't at least have some training with it. Finn was used and disrespected for Rey's benefit. However, it's clear in the film that Rey's the real Jedi because Luke's lightsaber only called to her, and Finn got his ass kicked in a melee fight with a henchman. So by the time he faces Kylo Ren, you know that ass whuppin's coming. Watch around 1M31S into the trailer below, Han's voiceover says "...the Jedi..." as the camera focuses on Finn. No accident. Furthermore, John Boyega's reaction to that line, "Damn right!" made it sound like being a Jedi was actually in Finn's future. TR-8R using his energy melee weapon was a good callback to stormtroopers using lightsabers in the original artwork. Finn used a lightsaber so that Rey could have her big reveal before looking superior wielding it as she kicked Kylo Ren's ass. Why was Finn given Luke's lightsaber? Because he was confirmed as being Force sensitive or because he was confirmed as being trained with it or melee weapons in general? No. Finn was given the lightsaber... to hand to Rey. He was her lightsaber caddy. TFA then forced him to fight with it so that they could use some of the footage in the trailers and posters. I never really got drawn into discussions re the "misdirection" of Finn because it was pretty well sign posted and a lot chat prior to the film's release had pretty much dismissed him as the new Jedi. However, looking at those posters retrospectively it is pretty sad - Much as many of us might have known, there's got to have been some wee kid somewhere who didn't and probably had one of those posters up on his wall, getting all psyched up for Finn being the new hero. Then he goes and sees TFA and discovers Finn is actually largely portrayed as a bumbling idiot, the type of character who gets his foot wedged in a mop bucket and can't get it free, to a soundtrack of canned laughter... That same kid then goes home and has to look back up at that same poster, the hope and meaning it once held now totally gone, basically a taunting reminder that he was fooled, also made into a joke... Shame on Disney.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 11:32:35 GMT
I believe there's a lot more misdirection in TFA itself than there was in its promotional material. I think by the time episode 9 ends, there will be many watching episode 7 and 8 over again in disbelief, and see that a lot of what doesn't seem to fit, actually always did. JMHO, we will see.
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Post by Nightman on Apr 23, 2017 11:44:57 GMT
I believe there's a lot more misdirection in TFA itself than there was in its promotional material. I think by the time episode 9 ends, there will be many watching episode 7 and 8 over again in disbelief, and see that a lot of what doesn't seem to fit, actually always did. JMHO, we will see. What misdirection do you think is in TFA, good ser? I think by the time episode 9 ends with the good guys celebrating the fall of the First Order on a moon inhabited by warrior puppies, people will be too angry to rewatch TFA and TLJ.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 12:39:49 GMT
I believe there's a lot more misdirection in TFA itself than there was in its promotional material. I think by the time episode 9 ends, there will be many watching episode 7 and 8 over again in disbelief, and see that a lot of what doesn't seem to fit, actually always did. JMHO, we will see. What misdirection do you think is in TFA, good ser? I think by the time episode 9 ends with the good guys celebrating the fall of the First Order on a moon inhabited by warrior puppies, people will be too angry to rewatch TFA and TLJ. I'm not sure, but I see too many opportunities for that not to happen. It's possible that Jakku will be discovered quite different from Tatooine, that the "map to Skywalker", was on Jakku for years and discovered there. That Rey knows exactly who she is, that she had an upbringing as not a scavenger until Jakku's economy collapsed. If find it interesting that Rey and San Tekka were in such close proximity that a droid could roll from one to the other in a seeming short amount of time on such a barren planet that they wouldn't know each other. I find it interesting that R2 had a map that fit perfectly with the piece that was found, and that the Empire had one in its archives as well. It's interesting that the map piece was to the first Jedi temple and someone squirreled it away back in the days of the Empire. Even as the empire was digging up every Jedi Temple they could find in search of Kyber crystals. I find it interesting that Rey met absolutely nobody actually involved with the resistance until she met Leia and instantly gave her a hug. Also that she had absolutely no dialogue to anybody that was conscious from the point she left StarKiller base. How could this be tied together? I see many ways. I see many opportunities. I think that Rian Johnson can tell a pretty good story, and I think it would be easier to tell a story around these little observations than to try and shoehorn the story into a repeat of the teddy bear picnic. We will see. Something may become of it, or nothing may become of it. I've been wrong before.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 23, 2017 13:45:42 GMT
He was afraid of his first time going out into battle. Overriding fear broke the brainwashing during that 1st scene. There is a scene where they are talking about him and needing to re-up his brainwashing. Show, don't tell. We never once saw Finn acting brainwashed or struggling with it throughout the remainder of the film. He always behaved like an ordinary person. Because he already broke out of it. They wouldn't say he needs to undergo conditioning again if it was something that could automatically take over him again.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 23, 2017 14:14:08 GMT
Maybe because he used a lightsaber through the movie. Rey only used it once. The one time she touched it she ran away from it. So, no, the ads for it was not deceptive. And just because we have never seen a non-Jedi use one in battle doesn't mean they can't. It was never said that only Jedi can use them. It was only said that they are a Jedi's weapon. Also, Luke had no training in fighting with a lightsaber (only blocking lasers), but he used it just fine. Why would they force someone who was never confirmed to either be Force sensitive or trained with lightsabers to use it twice in the movie? Knowing how Finn's lightsaber fights ended, why would Disney's marketing go out of their way to ONLY show Finn wielding it? You said Rey only used it once. That's more than enough to put some of the footage in the trailers and/or posters, but they never did. They also never showed Rey touching the lightsaber or talking about it. They were very careful about this. Why do you think they did this? How are the ads not deceptive? They go out of their way to only show Finn with the lightsaber, only to have him get his ass kicked twice in those fights before winding up in a coma. Meanwhile, the female lead, who was never once showed with it in the marketing, ended up being Force sensitive and the very one to whom the lightsaber called. This is a no-brainer. I never said Force sensitives couldn't use lightsabers. That's why I made sure to say: I had General Grievous in mind when I said that. My point is that a prerequisite to fighting with a lightsaber was establishing that the wielder was at least reasonably competent first. Obi-Wan and Vader were both Jedi back in the day. Luke was Force sensitive and had some training before he fought Vader in ESB. Maul was trained by Sidious, etc. Without any confirmed Force sensitivity or lightsaber training, Finn was forced to wield this weapon. What's more, Disney went out of their way to only show him with it. This was no accident. It's unfortunate that you choose to ignore something so obvious. We didn't need to specifically see Luke train with the lightsaber beyond the basics in ANH. ESB took place 3 years later, and Luke trained on screen with Yoda. There was enough there to recognize that Luke had trained off screen periodically, which improved his lightsaber ability. Plus, they were showing that Luke's concern for his friends tempted him to rush his training at his own peril. He wasn't forced to use the weapon. The weapon was given to him to give to Rey when he saw her again. He used it because he had it. And seeing as TR-8R knew him without his helmet on that means they were kinda close and probably trained together. Seeing as TR-8R knew how to use a melee weapon, that would suggest that Finn trained to use a melee weapon also. And as we see that Rey used the lightsaber like she did her staff that would also suggest that his training would also extend to a lightsaber.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 24, 2017 9:11:08 GMT
I never really got drawn into discussions re the "misdirection" of Finn because it was pretty well sign posted and a lot chat prior to the film's release had pretty much dismissed him as the new Jedi. However, looking at those posters retrospectively it is pretty sad - Much as many of us might have known, there's got to have been some wee kid somewhere who didn't and probably had one of those posters up on his wall, getting all psyched up for Finn being the new hero. Then he goes and sees TFA and discovers Finn is actually largely portrayed as a bumbling idiot, the type of character who gets his foot wedged in a mop bucket and can't get it free, to a soundtrack of canned laughter... That same kid then goes home and has to look back up at that same poster, the hope and meaning it once held now totally gone, basically a taunting reminder that he was fooled, also made into a joke... Shame on Disney. I never really thought Finn was going to be THE new Jedi, but it seemed illogical to only show him wielding the lightsaber and not have that path in his future. I suspected Rey was going to be one of the new Jedi because she's white. What I mean is, in all likelihood, I thought she was somehow going to be related to Luke and Leia. We had never seen someone wield the lightsaber in a fight who had no business using it, especially in the marketing. It's bad enough Finn was thrown under the bus for Rey's further empowerment. I was not expecting to get Jar Jar Lite. No other main character in Star Wars was ever treated this poorly in their first film, but fans love Finn because he was brave, funny and had heart. Finn was the version of Jar Jar that was beloved rather than loathed. His likeability and promise of improvement in the sequels cover up a multitude of problems.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 24, 2017 9:54:06 GMT
Show, don't tell. We never once saw Finn acting brainwashed or struggling with it throughout the remainder of the film. He always behaved like an ordinary person. Because he already broke out of it. They wouldn't say he needs to undergo conditioning again if it was something that could automatically take over him again. Does it make sense to you that someone could suddenly break free from years of mental conditioning without suffering any lingering effects? It's one thing if Finn's brainwashing was weakening. It's quite another for it to just stop and never affect him in any way for the rest of the film.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 24, 2017 10:08:11 GMT
He wasn't forced to use the weapon. The weapon was given to him to give to Rey when he saw her again. He used it because he had it. And seeing as TR-8R knew him without his helmet on that means they were kinda close and probably trained together. Seeing as TR-8R knew how to use a melee weapon, that would suggest that Finn trained to use a melee weapon also. And as we see that Rey used the lightsaber like she did her staff that would also suggest that his training would also extend to a lightsaber. I'm not talking about another character forcing Finn to use the lightsaber. I'm talking about the filmmakers forcing it on him. We all know Finn's good with blasters, but the filmmakers conveniently removed this weapon so that he would have to fight with the Jedi weapon. Disney's marketing then took some of the footage of his lightsaber fight with TR-8R and placed it in some of the trailers in order to mislead us that he was going to be one of the new Jedi. Were they close? Finn never behaved that way. He didn't struggle killing any of them. Imagine having to kill your fellow classmates or co-workers in order to survive. Wouldn't you likely have mixed feelings about it? If Finn was trained with melee weapons, his loss would be even worse. He couldn't even defeat an ordinary henchman on his own. Instead he's like a deer caught in the headlights before Han has to come in and save him. Rey was untrained with melee weapons. She just used her staff for basic self defense. The idea of her being superior with it than someone who might've been trained is ridiculous.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 24, 2017 15:02:50 GMT
What this conversation has turned into is one of the dumbest, most going out of its way to create an issue when one doesn't exist, politically correct, whiny, and baseless topics I've seen in all my years on the Internet.
The trailers were......misleading?! That's....that's just....it's just soooo...... not an issue! And think of all the children who were irrevocably damaged by the portrayal of the Finn character! There are just so many stories about kids who are struggling with their identity now that we know Finn was..... *shudders* laughed at.
Get the fuck outta here with your misguided cries for social justice. If you don't like the movie, come up with the real reason. Oh, and find a real cause to be a champion for.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 24, 2017 15:42:31 GMT
What this conversation has turned into is one of the dumbest, most going out of its way to create an issue when one doesn't exist, politically correct, whiny, and baseless topics I've seen in all my years on the Internet. The trailers were......misleading?! That's....that's just....it's just soooo...... not an issue! And think of all the children who were irrevocably damaged by the portrayal of the Finn character! There are just so many stories about kids who are struggling with their identity now that we know Finn was..... *shudders* laughed at. Get the fuck outta here with your misguided cries for social justice. If you don't like the movie, come up with the real reason. Oh, and find a real cause to be a champion for. You may think that it's an insignificant argument but the facts are that the trailers were somewhat misleading. If someone tries to make the argument of absolutely not, you're not going to nod your head in agreement when you know otherwise. If you think it's so trivial then just ignore it.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 24, 2017 15:46:12 GMT
What this conversation has turned into is one of the dumbest, most going out of its way to create an issue when one doesn't exist, politically correct, whiny, and baseless topics I've seen in all my years on the Internet. The trailers were......misleading?! That's....that's just....it's just soooo...... not an issue! And think of all the children who were irrevocably damaged by the portrayal of the Finn character! There are just so many stories about kids who are struggling with their identity now that we know Finn was..... *shudders* laughed at. Get the fuck outta here with your misguided cries for social justice. If you don't like the movie, come up with the real reason. Oh, and find a real cause to be a champion for. You may think that it's an insignificant argument but the facts are that the trailers were somewhat misleading. If someone tries to make the argument of absolutely not, you're not going to nod your head in agreement when you know otherwise. If you think it's so trivial then just ignore it. It doesn't matter that they are, that's the point.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 24, 2017 15:52:48 GMT
You may think that it's an insignificant argument but the facts are that the trailers were somewhat misleading. If someone tries to make the argument of absolutely not, you're not going to nod your head in agreement when you know otherwise. If you think it's so trivial then just ignore it. It doesn't matter that they are, that's the point. If you really think people are okay with it when trailers are misleading then I think you're being naive. Especially when the deception is excessive or almost a total misrepresentation.
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Post by Nightman on Apr 24, 2017 15:54:07 GMT
What this conversation has turned into is one of the dumbest, most going out of its way to create an issue when one doesn't exist, politically correct, whiny, and baseless topics I've seen in all my years on the Internet. The trailers were......misleading?! That's....that's just....it's just soooo...... not an issue! And think of all the children who were irrevocably damaged by the portrayal of the Finn character! There are just so many stories about kids who are struggling with their identity now that we know Finn was..... *shudders* laughed at. Get the fuck outta here with your misguided cries for social justice. If you don't like the movie, come up with the real reason. Oh, and find a real cause to be a champion for. Terrible trolling, dude. Come on. You can do better than this tripe.
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Post by kuatorises on Apr 24, 2017 15:59:46 GMT
It doesn't matter that they are, that's the point. If you really think people are okay with it when trailers are misleading then I think you're being naive. Especially when the deception is excessive or almost a total misrepresentation. Obviously I live in a bubble and am unaware of this disturbing trend. Where might one learn more about this pressing matter? MoveOn.org maybe?
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