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Post by kuatorises on Apr 24, 2017 16:12:53 GMT
What this conversation has turned into is one of the dumbest, most going out of its way to create an issue when one doesn't exist, politically correct, whiny, and baseless topics I've seen in all my years on the Internet. The trailers were......misleading?! That's....that's just....it's just soooo...... not an issue! And think of all the children who were irrevocably damaged by the portrayal of the Finn character! There are just so many stories about kids who are struggling with their identity now that we know Finn was..... *shudders* laughed at. Get the fuck outta here with your misguided cries for social justice. If you don't like the movie, come up with the real reason. Oh, and find a real cause to be a champion for. Terrible trolling, dude. Come on. You can do better than this tripe. Guys like you don't even know the meaning of the word troll. You think it just means someone whose opinion you don't want to hear. You don't like what they have to say, so you start calling their character into question. Ironically, it actually says a lot about your character.
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Post by Nightman on Apr 24, 2017 16:28:17 GMT
Terrible trolling, dude. Come on. You can do better than this tripe. Guys like you don't even know the meaning of the word troll. You think it just means someone whose opinion you don't want to hear. You don't like what they have to say, so you start calling their character into question. Ironically, it actually says a lot about your character. Kid, I've been trolling since before you were born. Saying stuff people disagree with isn't trolling. Saying stuff people disagree with, and not bothering to at least specify where you disagree, is poor trolling. Go on. How were the trailers not misleading? How is Mark Hamill wrong? What does poor writing have to do social justice?
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 24, 2017 16:29:13 GMT
If you really think people are okay with it when trailers are misleading then I think you're being naive. Especially when the deception is excessive or almost a total misrepresentation. Obviously I live in a bubble and am unaware of this disturbing trend. Where might one learn more about this pressing matter? MoveOn.org maybe? One or two people made a comment about it in a matter of fact way. And then another poster defiantly argued that is being totally false. So how where they supposed to respond? Just say "you're absolutely right because it's too trivial for me to correct you on it, therefore you are right, the trailers were not misleading at all." Do you know how ridiculous you're making yourself look right now? I guess you spend all your time at "MakingAnEvenPettierBeefAboutaPettyBeef.com" or maybe "StupidComplaintsBasedonStupidSuppositions.com"
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 24, 2017 17:22:07 GMT
Because he already broke out of it. They wouldn't say he needs to undergo conditioning again if it was something that could automatically take over him again. Does it make sense to you that someone could suddenly break free from years of mental conditioning without suffering any lingering effects? It's one thing if Finn's brainwashing was weakening. It's quite another for it to just stop and never affect him in any way for the rest of the film. It makes total sense. And if you think of it the way you said it. It could explain why he was so afraid of the First Order throughout the movie. He breaks the brainwashing because of overwhelming fear. Fear of going into battle for the first time and fear of what the First Order did to that village. That entire scene he was watching what his "coworkers" were doing to those people. The "lingering effects" of the brainwashing and the fear that overrode it coupled together made him want to escape the entire galaxy to get away from the First Order.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 24, 2017 17:37:19 GMT
He wasn't forced to use the weapon. The weapon was given to him to give to Rey when he saw her again. He used it because he had it. And seeing as TR-8R knew him without his helmet on that means they were kinda close and probably trained together. Seeing as TR-8R knew how to use a melee weapon, that would suggest that Finn trained to use a melee weapon also. And as we see that Rey used the lightsaber like she did her staff that would also suggest that his training would also extend to a lightsaber. I'm not talking about another character forcing Finn to use the lightsaber. I'm talking about the filmmakers forcing it on him. We all know Finn's good with blasters, but the filmmakers conveniently removed this weapon so that he would have to fight with the Jedi weapon. Disney's marketing then took some of the footage of his lightsaber fight with TR-8R and placed it in some of the trailers in order to mislead us that he was going to be one of the new Jedi. Were they close? Finn never behaved that way. He didn't struggle killing any of them. Imagine having to kill your fellow classmates or co-workers in order to survive. Wouldn't you likely have mixed feelings about it? If Finn was trained with melee weapons, his loss would be even worse. He couldn't even defeat an ordinary henchman on his own. Instead he's like a deer caught in the headlights before Han has to come in and save him. Rey was untrained with melee weapons. She just used her staff for basic self defense. The idea of her being superior with it than someone who might've been trained is ridiculous. It's not forcing him to use it when it is a part of the story. Rey threw it away. So she doesn't have it. How would she get it for the end of the movie? She would have also lost the lightsaber when she was captured by Kylo. So her not having it and another person there to give it to her when she needed it later made sense. Is he suppose to just carry it around on his belt? No, give us some lightsaber action from the only other young person that had training using a melee weapon. Yeah, because Finn was a sanitation worker they chose to go out into battle. Of course he'd be bad against a person that looked to be more of a soldier. Training doesn't make you the best at something without applying it. Being trained to use a melee weapon then told to dump the trash compacter wouldn't help in being better than his fellow Stormtroopers that continually train with those weapons. He knows how to use a sword, doesn't mean he'd be better than others. Rey wasn't officially trained at a school, but she had a lifetime of in-the-field training. And, like I said before, a person can learn to do something, but not applying it will not make them a master of it. Ben could have learned to use a lightsaber at the academy, but that doesn't mean he is awesome at dueling with one. And I laugh at your "basic self defense". She had to survive on her own for maybe over a decade.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 24, 2017 18:14:53 GMT
Does it make sense to you that someone could suddenly break free from years of mental conditioning without suffering any lingering effects? It's one thing if Finn's brainwashing was weakening. It's quite another for it to just stop and never affect him in any way for the rest of the film. It makes total sense. And if you think of it the way you said it. It could explain why he was so afraid of the First Order throughout the movie. He breaks the brainwashing because of overwhelming fear. Fear of going into battle for the first time and fear of what the First Order did to that village. That entire scene he was watching what his "coworkers" were doing to those people. The "lingering effects" of the brainwashing and the fear that overrode it coupled together made him want to escape the entire galaxy to get away from the First Order. Why would he be afraid if he was conditioned to not be? If he was SO afraid, why was he so eager to then participate in killing? Fear you're describing should have been crippling. He should have been so utterly confused. Yet, like Rey, he's not a product of his environment, his character exists in spite of it. He's socially confident, he's not afraid of weapons, and then he goes and stabs soldiers in the back with a plasma blade. How can you really think any of that jives? It's such an obvious and jarring transition, and along with Rey piloting the Falcon the way that she does, I was thrown out of suspension of disbelief early on.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 24, 2017 18:39:11 GMT
It makes total sense. And if you think of it the way you said it. It could explain why he was so afraid of the First Order throughout the movie. He breaks the brainwashing because of overwhelming fear. Fear of going into battle for the first time and fear of what the First Order did to that village. That entire scene he was watching what his "coworkers" were doing to those people. The "lingering effects" of the brainwashing and the fear that overrode it coupled together made him want to escape the entire galaxy to get away from the First Order. Why would he be afraid if he was conditioned to not be? If he was SO afraid, why was he so eager to then participate in killing? Fear you're describing should have been crippling. He should have been so utterly confused. Yet, like Rey, he's not a product of his environment, his character exists in spite of it. He's socially confident, he's not afraid of weapons, and then he goes and stabs soldiers in the back with a plasma blade. How can you really think any of that jives? It's such an obvious and jarring transition, and along with Rey piloting the Falcon the way that she does, I was thrown out of suspension of disbelief early on. Overriding fear. Fear so strong that it broke the conditioning. And no it wouldn't be crippling. He was afraid of the First Order and what they were doing. There are people that are afraid of spiders, but don't crawl away screaming. They get rid of what is causing that fear. Why would he be afraid of weapons? That's not where his fear comes from. Again, he is afraid of the First Order. And like you said he stabbed the guy in the back when he was distracted killing a Resistance soldier. And socially confident? He has no clue how to talk to or act around Rey. And you mean the same Rey that said she piloted the Falcon before? The one that had a bit of trouble with the controls until she got the hang of it? She was a pilot with no ship and no desire to leave the planet because she was waiting on someone.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 24, 2017 18:49:07 GMT
Does it make sense to you that someone could suddenly break free from years of mental conditioning without suffering any lingering effects? It's one thing if Finn's brainwashing was weakening. It's quite another for it to just stop and never affect him in any way for the rest of the film. It makes total sense. And if you think of it the way you said it. It could explain why he was so afraid of the First Order throughout the movie. He breaks the brainwashing because of overwhelming fear. Fear of going into battle for the first time and fear of what the First Order did to that village. That entire scene he was watching what his "coworkers" were doing to those people. The "lingering effects" of the brainwashing and the fear that overrode it coupled together made him want to escape the entire galaxy to get away from the First Order. There were no lingering effects of the brainwashing. It's not like Finn periodically struggled against betraying his friends so that he could give the map to the First Order. That would've been interesting. Finn never behaved like he was brainwashed, and it made little sense that he was so afraid, well-socialized and incompetent given his background. It was embarrassing to see him freak out in front of Maz when everyone else looked calm by comparison.
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 24, 2017 18:54:55 GMT
Why would he be afraid if he was conditioned to not be? If he was SO afraid, why was he so eager to then participate in killing? Fear you're describing should have been crippling. He should have been so utterly confused. Yet, like Rey, he's not a product of his environment, his character exists in spite of it. He's socially confident, he's not afraid of weapons, and then he goes and stabs soldiers in the back with a plasma blade. How can you really think any of that jives? It's such an obvious and jarring transition, and along with Rey piloting the Falcon the way that she does, I was thrown out of suspension of disbelief early on. Overriding fear. Fear so strong that it broke the conditioning. And no it wouldn't be crippling. He was afraid of the First Order and what they were doing. There are people that are afraid of spiders, but don't crawl away screaming. They get rid of what is causing that fear. Why would he be afraid of weapons? That's not where his fear comes from. Again, he is afraid of the First Order. And like you said he stabbed the guy in the back when he was distracted killing a Resistance soldier. And socially confident? He has no clue how to talk to or act around Rey. And you mean the same Rey that said she piloted the Falcon before? The one that had a bit of trouble with the controls until she got the hang of it? She was a pilot with no ship and no desire to leave the planet because she was waiting on someone. Your first paragraph is pure contradiction. He's afraid of the first order, yet he goes gung-ho to murder soldiers, who, like himself, were forced into service. He's nervous around Rey, because apparently it's the first female he's seen, and he's smitten. Look at how he talks to everyone else? Let's not get into the Rey bullshit. She bounced the ship for a second and then outpiloted experienced COMBAT pilots in a 50 year old ship that 'hasn't flown in years' by her own admission and a ship that she'd never personally flown. Yest, it's absolutely suspension of belief breaking. You can't just claim "but it's star wars!" Anakin and Luke both had experience/exposition in piloting a specific craft before the pod race/trench run, so what we see in this film is completely jarring. Never before have we had a Disney Princess at the helm, or a defecting soldier that seemed to not only defect due to finding his humanity, but then immediately loses said development by being intent on killing. The pilot in Rogue One was a much more realistic portrayal of how shaken a defector might be if they were as afraid as you suggest.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 24, 2017 19:10:10 GMT
I'm not talking about another character forcing Finn to use the lightsaber. I'm talking about the filmmakers forcing it on him. We all know Finn's good with blasters, but the filmmakers conveniently removed this weapon so that he would have to fight with the Jedi weapon. Disney's marketing then took some of the footage of his lightsaber fight with TR-8R and placed it in some of the trailers in order to mislead us that he was going to be one of the new Jedi. Were they close? Finn never behaved that way. He didn't struggle killing any of them. Imagine having to kill your fellow classmates or co-workers in order to survive. Wouldn't you likely have mixed feelings about it? If Finn was trained with melee weapons, his loss would be even worse. He couldn't even defeat an ordinary henchman on his own. Instead he's like a deer caught in the headlights before Han has to come in and save him. Rey was untrained with melee weapons. She just used her staff for basic self defense. The idea of her being superior with it than someone who might've been trained is ridiculous. It's not forcing him to use it when it is a part of the story. Rey threw it away. So she doesn't have it. How would she get it for the end of the movie? She would have also lost the lightsaber when she was captured by Kylo. So her not having it and another person there to give it to her when she needed it later made sense. Is he suppose to just carry it around on his belt? No, give us some lightsaber action from the only other young person that had training using a melee weapon. Yeah, because Finn was a sanitation worker they chose to go out into battle. Of course he'd be bad against a person that looked to be more of a soldier. Training doesn't make you the best at something without applying it. Being trained to use a melee weapon then told to dump the trash compacter wouldn't help in being better than his fellow Stormtroopers that continually train with those weapons. He knows how to use a sword, doesn't mean he'd be better than others. Rey wasn't officially trained at a school, but she had a lifetime of in-the-field training. And, like I said before, a person can learn to do something, but not applying it will not make them a master of it. Ben could have learned to use a lightsaber at the academy, but that doesn't mean he is awesome at dueling with one. And I laugh at your "basic self defense". She had to survive on her own for maybe over a decade. It doesn't matter if it's part of the story if it makes no sense. Finn was never confirmed to either be Force sensitive or trained with the lightsaber - and it shows. He should've been allowed to stick with the blaster. Would you be okay with ESB forcing Han to fight Darth Vader with a lightsaber before getting his ass kicked? Characters in Star Wars play to their strengths, not their weaknesses. It's so obvious why they made Finn do this. You think it's an accident that he, not Rey, was shown over and over again wielding Luke's lightsaber? Disney knew he wasn't good at it, but they lied to us anyway in order to hide Rey's big reveal. Having Finn hold Rey's lightsaber for her was fine. Forcing him to fight with it, get his ass kicked twice as a result and marketing him like he's going to be one of the new Jedi was wrong. Finn is a main character. TR-8R was an ordinary henchman. You can tell because of how casually he was killed off. If they weren't going to have Finn defeat him with the lightsaber, then that fight should never have happened. They keep treating Finn like a bumbling comic relief sidekick when he should've been a reasonably competent main character who got to achieve some personal victories and heroic saves. Jakku isn't as dangerous as you make it out to be. The only time she was attacked by locals was when BB-8 was with her. Most of the danger came from scavenging and trying to get enough food. It makes no sense to have her look superior on the battlefield than someone who was trained their whole life to be a soldier. Most of Rey's surviving meant getting food, not fighting bad guys, lol. Look at what the movie showed us.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 24, 2017 19:30:54 GMT
Overriding fear. Fear so strong that it broke the conditioning. And no it wouldn't be crippling. He was afraid of the First Order and what they were doing. There are people that are afraid of spiders, but don't crawl away screaming. They get rid of what is causing that fear. Why would he be afraid of weapons? That's not where his fear comes from. Again, he is afraid of the First Order. And like you said he stabbed the guy in the back when he was distracted killing a Resistance soldier. And socially confident? He has no clue how to talk to or act around Rey. And you mean the same Rey that said she piloted the Falcon before? The one that had a bit of trouble with the controls until she got the hang of it? She was a pilot with no ship and no desire to leave the planet because she was waiting on someone. Your first paragraph is pure contradiction. He's afraid of the first order, yet he goes gung-ho to murder soldiers, who, like himself, were forced into service. He's nervous around Rey, because apparently it's the first female he's seen, and he's smitten. Look at how he talks to everyone else? Let's not get into the Rey bullshit. She bounced the ship for a second and then outpiloted experienced COMBAT pilots in a 50 year old ship that 'hasn't flown in years' by her own admission and a ship that she'd never personally flown. Yest, it's absolutely suspension of belief breaking. You can't just claim "but it's star wars!" Anakin and Luke both had experience/exposition in piloting a specific craft before the pod race/trench run, so what we see in this film is completely jarring. Never before have we had a Disney Princess at the helm, or a defecting soldier that seemed to not only defect due to finding his humanity, but then immediately loses said development by being intent on killing. The pilot in Rogue One was a much more realistic portrayal of how shaken a defector might be if they were as afraid as you suggest.Excellent point! Bodhi's behavior was so much more believable for a defector than Finn's.
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