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Post by millar70 on Jan 27, 2020 20:40:10 GMT
Okay, so I finally saw Joker over the weekend. Forgive me for being late to the party, but better late than never.
Wow, what a film. Didn't disappoint me in the least, a dark, harsh ride into a place that we could all descend into if we allow ourselves to.
As our world slowly gets more and more divided, confused, and angry, would a man like Arthur Fleck be a bigger part of the problem, or an answer? VERY chilling stuff when you think about it hard enough.
Anyways, at the very least, if Joaquin Phoenix doesn't get an Oscar next weekend, the system is totally fucked. And kudos to Todd Phillips, a director known for comedies but still able to capture a pretty bleak picture of society. Props to Phillips as well for totally nailing the look and feel of New York City in 1981.
The best new film I've seen since, well probably Heath Ledger's turn as the Joker in The Dark Knight. I will watch Joker many more times to try to soak in all of the little details that permeate each scene.
9/10 (really a 10/10, but I don't want to seem too giddy)
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jan 27, 2020 20:53:11 GMT
With you on Phoenix, he was remarkable, although Adam Driver was also incredible in Marriage Story. The real injustice is that Willem Dafoe wasn't even nominated for The Lighthouse, he gave the best performance I saw in 2019, by a pretty wide margin. Alas, while Phoenix is deserving, I wouldn't mind if Driver took home the prize.
As for the rest of the movie beyond Phoenix, I thought it was kinda mixed. Phillips' setting is great, there are some great sequences, particularly in the first act, but too many homages to Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, to the point where it actually became distracting for me - there are a handful of shots directly taken from those movies. Do it once and make your point and then move on.
The subplot with the mom and Thomas Wayne just didn't work for me at all. That, and the whole imaginary girlfriend thing, it's pretty simply conveyed the second she walks into the room and she sees Arthur sitting there and she looks legit terrified, you don't need to have a Fight Clubesque revision of various scenes previously shown. I prefer it when directors trust their audiences a bit more than that. Plus, the ending was kinda silly.
Just one man's humble opinion.
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Post by millar70 on Jan 27, 2020 21:10:36 GMT
With you on Phoenix, he was remarkable, although Adam Driver was also incredible in Marriage Story. The real injustice is that Willem Dafoe wasn't even nominated for The Lighthouse, he gave the best performance I saw in 2019, by a pretty wide margin. Alas, while Phoenix is deserving, I wouldn't mind if Driver took home the prize. As for the rest of the movie beyond Phoenix, I thought it was kinda mixed. Phillips' setting is great, there are some great sequences, particularly in the first act, but too many homages to Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, to the point where it actually became distracting for me - there are a handful of shots directly taken from those movies. Do it once and make your point and then move on. The subplot with the mom and Thomas Wayne just didn't work for me at all. That, and the whole imaginary girlfriend thing, it's pretty simply conveyed the second she walks into the room and he sees Arthur sitting there and she looks legit terrified, you don't need to have a Fight Clubesque revision of various scenes previously shown. I prefer it when directors trust their audiences a bit more than that. Plus, the ending was kinda silly. Just one man's humble opinion. On face value, the subplot with Thomas Wayne and Arthur's mom does seem silly, but the more you think about it, doesn't. What if all this time, it turns out that Batman and Joker are actually brothers? I thought it was a neat twist to an old story. I do agree that showing the montage of Arthur imagining his girlfriend was unnecessary, but there's 2 reasons why that was probably needed. First, most modern moviegoers are actually pretty slow and do need stuff "explained" to them. And 2nd and most important, it shows the audience what kind of weird imagination is flowing through Arthur's head, which ties in with the final scene. Let's face it, we are totally not sure if any of these things happened, or were just the imaginations of a guy locked away in an asylum. I totally love the open-ended finish to the movie.
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OT: Joker
Jan 27, 2020 22:14:01 GMT
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Post by hoskotafe3 on Jan 27, 2020 22:14:01 GMT
It was fine, I guess. I'd rather watch Taxi Driver personally. Main significance was showing what you could do successfully with comic book material. Going for that whole vibe and finding a substantive audience means other directors will get their shot too and have the chance to make gritty crime capers into billion dollar films with the comic book hook.
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Post by orlandogardner on Jan 27, 2020 22:28:10 GMT
Hugely overrated. A cynical rip-off of two far superior films. It's uneven, juvenile and (the worst thing you can level at a film like this) dull. It's kinda plotless and tonally it's all over the gaff. And it never earns its payoff i.e. a Joker origin story. So, What? He gets beaten up a couple of times and has a shitty mother? That's it? That's what creates the Joker. FFS! There'd be a billion Joker's knocking about if that was all it takes.
I love River Phoenix but even he annoyed me in it. Does he throw himself into the role? Indeed he does but it's such a one note performance as there is no real characterization in the film. A better director, with a better script, would have gotten far more nuance from him. Just look at his performances in The Master and, more relevant to this discussion, 2017's We Were Never Really Here. Shit, this is pantomime compared to those. It's depiction of mental illness is ill informed also, and don't get me started on the nonsense bait and switch relationship with the cute neighbour. Christ! Overall, to me, it seems a film that is ill conceived by some people ill equipped to execute it.
I was really willing it to be good, especially considering how many people wanted it to fail from the moment it was announced, but ended up so disappointed by it. A film made by people who think they are being deep and clever but really just a bit of a damp squib.
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OT: Joker
Jan 27, 2020 22:48:48 GMT
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Post by millar70 on Jan 27, 2020 22:48:48 GMT
Hugely overrated. A cynical rip-off of two far superior films. It's uneven, juvenile and (the worst thing you can level at a film like this) dull. It's kinda plotless and tonally it's all over the gaff. And it never earns its payoff i.e. a Joker origin story. So, What? He gets beaten up a couple of times and has a shitty mother? That's it? That's what creates the Joker. FFS! There'd be a billion Joker's knocking about if that was all it takes. I love River Phoenix but even he annoyed me in it. Does he throw himself into the role? Indeed he does but it's such a one note performance as there is no real characterization in the film. A better director, with a better script, would have gotten far more nuance from him. Just look at his performances in The Master and, more relevant to this discussion, 2017's We Were Never Really Here. Shit, this is pantomime compared to those. It's depiction of mental illness is ill informed also, and don't get me started on the nonsense bait and switch relationship with the cute neighbour. Christ! Overall, to me, it seems a film that is ill conceived by some people ill equipped to execute it. I was really willing it to be good, especially considering how many people wanted it to fail from the moment it was announced, but ended up so disappointed by it. A film made by people who think they are being deep and clever but really just a bit of a damp squib. We'll agree to disagree on this one, but I feel I must make two points, although both are pretty meaningless. It's Joaquin Phoenix, not River Phoenix. If you want to talk about massively overrated films, The Master is right at the top of my list. A complete snoozefest.
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Jason143
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OT: Joker
Jan 27, 2020 22:49:55 GMT
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Post by Jason143 on Jan 27, 2020 22:49:55 GMT
Its a throwback movie. Im glad a lot of people saw it and grossed over a billion.
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SportsFan19
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@sportsfan19
Posts: 2,846
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Post by SportsFan19 on Jan 27, 2020 22:57:08 GMT
With you on Phoenix, he was remarkable, although Adam Driver was also incredible in Marriage Story. The real injustice is that Willem Dafoe wasn't even nominated for The Lighthouse, he gave the best performance I saw in 2019, by a pretty wide margin. Alas, while Phoenix is deserving, I wouldn't mind if Driver took home the prize. As for the rest of the movie beyond Phoenix, I thought it was kinda mixed. Phillips' setting is great, there are some great sequences, particularly in the first act, but too many homages to Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, to the point where it actually became distracting for me - there are a handful of shots directly taken from those movies. Do it once and make your point and then move on. The subplot with the mom and Thomas Wayne just didn't work for me at all. That, and the whole imaginary girlfriend thing, it's pretty simply conveyed the second she walks into the room and he sees Arthur sitting there and she looks legit terrified, you don't need to have a Fight Clubesque revision of various scenes previously shown. I prefer it when directors trust their audiences a bit more than that. Plus, the ending was kinda silly. Just one man's humble opinion. 100% agreed!
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jan 27, 2020 23:07:19 GMT
Hugely overrated. A cynical rip-off of two far superior films. It's uneven, juvenile and (the worst thing you can level at a film like this) dull. It's kinda plotless and tonally it's all over the gaff. And it never earns its payoff i.e. a Joker origin story. So, What? He gets beaten up a couple of times and has a shitty mother? That's it? That's what creates the Joker. FFS! There'd be a billion Joker's knocking about if that was all it takes. I love River Phoenix but even he annoyed me in it. Does he throw himself into the role? Indeed he does but it's such a one note performance as there is no real characterization in the film. A better director, with a better script, would have gotten far more nuance from him. Just look at his performances in The Master and, more relevant to this discussion, 2017's We Were Never Really Here. Shit, this is pantomime compared to those. It's depiction of mental illness is ill informed also, and don't get me started on the nonsense bait and switch relationship with the cute neighbour. Christ! Overall, to me, it seems a film that is ill conceived by some people ill equipped to execute it. I was really willing it to be good, especially considering how many people wanted it to fail from the moment it was announced, but ended up so disappointed by it. A film made by people who think they are being deep and clever but really just a bit of a damp squib. Oh man, Hoffman and Phoenix in the Master. Talk about A+ performances. The interrogation scene is among the most well-acted scenes I've ever witnessed. Awesome stuff.
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OT: Joker
Jan 27, 2020 23:16:42 GMT
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Post by millar70 on Jan 27, 2020 23:16:42 GMT
Hugely overrated. A cynical rip-off of two far superior films. It's uneven, juvenile and (the worst thing you can level at a film like this) dull. It's kinda plotless and tonally it's all over the gaff. And it never earns its payoff i.e. a Joker origin story. So, What? He gets beaten up a couple of times and has a shitty mother? That's it? That's what creates the Joker. FFS! There'd be a billion Joker's knocking about if that was all it takes. I love River Phoenix but even he annoyed me in it. Does he throw himself into the role? Indeed he does but it's such a one note performance as there is no real characterization in the film. A better director, with a better script, would have gotten far more nuance from him. Just look at his performances in The Master and, more relevant to this discussion, 2017's We Were Never Really Here. Shit, this is pantomime compared to those. It's depiction of mental illness is ill informed also, and don't get me started on the nonsense bait and switch relationship with the cute neighbour. Christ! Overall, to me, it seems a film that is ill conceived by some people ill equipped to execute it. I was really willing it to be good, especially considering how many people wanted it to fail from the moment it was announced, but ended up so disappointed by it. A film made by people who think they are being deep and clever but really just a bit of a damp squib. Oh man, Hoffman and Phoenix in the Master. Talk about A+ performances. The interrogation scene is among the most well-acted scenes I've ever witnessed. Awesome stuff. The Master is a great film for those suffering from insomnia. Give it about 35-40 minutes and you will be out like a light. 😴😴😴
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Post by MCDemuth on Jan 27, 2020 23:41:54 GMT
I saw it a couple of weeks ago on Blu-Ray...
I usually don't enjoy "Super-Criminal" movies, since I prefer movies about heroes and not the villains... In addition, since this was marketed as an origin story for Batman's nemesis, the Joker, I also feared that the story would take on a childish comic book tone to it as well...
And so, I wasn't sure what to expect with this film, and I had low expectations for it...
I'm sure that we can all reasonably agree, that the Joker probably wasn't always so insane and dangerous... If he had been that way as a young child, he would have been locked up in an institution for life, and there would not have been anything more to his story...
And so, I did at least hope, that this particular Joker's origin story would involve some "event" in his young adult years that changed him...
Thankfully, This movie does explore a change in him from the start of the film to the end... and I was pleasantly surprised that the story was told as more of a "Thriller" with a very down-to-earth tone...
This is definitely a film that is not aimed at the kiddies, but it is intended for more mature adults, who are not a fan of comic books and superhero films.
In addition, I couldn't help but be impressed with Joaquin Phoenix's interpretation of what Joker's life was like, before he became Batman's nemesis... I don't think anyone else could have portrayed that character as well.
In the end, I found that I had enjoyed the film, and that I am glad that I didn't let my doubts keep me from seeing this very good film...
7/10.
And it's also, my opinion, that...
This film could easily be interpreted as a possible PREQUEL film to both Christopher Nolan's films: "Batman Begins" (2005) & "The Dark Knight" (2008)...
"Joker" (2019)... "Batman Begins" (2005)... "The Dark Knight" (2008)... "The Dark Knight Rises" (2012)...
As a fan of the Christopher Nolan's films, that's how I choose to see it...
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senan90
Junior Member
@senan90
Posts: 1,452
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Post by senan90 on Jan 28, 2020 0:09:07 GMT
It wasn't the artsy psychological drama that people were touting. It's a very safe, conventional thriller. I admire its attempts but its largely forgettable. 2.5/5
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Post by 尺ロㄈにモイ州凡几 on Jan 28, 2020 0:52:50 GMT
Just gonna say in response to people saying Joker and the Master are overrated: what the fuck kind of criticism is saying a movie is overrated? You not liking a movie as much as other people isn't a valid criticism. But Joker is a great piece of cinema, and easily one of the greatest comic book character adaptations ever. I wouldn't say this was Phoenix's best performance of his career (that would go to The Master) but it was still fuckin excellent and definitely one of the top three from the last year.
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OT: Joker
Jan 28, 2020 1:13:31 GMT
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Post by millar70 on Jan 28, 2020 1:13:31 GMT
Just gonna say in response to people saying Joker and the Master are overrated: what the fuck kind of criticism is saying a movie is overrated? You not liking a movie as much as other people isn't a valid criticism. But Joker is a great piece of cinema, and easily one of the greatest comic book character adaptations ever. I wouldn't say this was Phoenix's best performance of his career (that would go to The Master) but it was still fuckin excellent and definitely one of the top three from the last year. Well, seeing how I'm the only one on this thread who said The Master is overrated, it would appear your anger about the subject is directed at me. So I'll respond with something more than that it was simply "overrated". It was incredibly dull, overwrought, and hideously slow. Trust me, I wanted to like it. I love both Phoenix and Hoffman as actors and it seemed like a subject matter that would really keep me engrossed. Scenes and even camera shots went on and on with nothing even remotely interesting happening. While I don't expect all main characters of a movie to be like Jimmy Stewart, I do expect to at least feel a little something for characters, and I felt absolutely nothing for either Hoffman's or Phoenix's. I didn't see it in the theater, I waited till I was house sitting for a friend who had a big screen and I rented it. The first time I watched it, I fell asleep cuz of boredom. Feeling bad, I gave it another watch and forced myself to stay awake. The first time was better because I fell asleep and probably had a more interesting dream. I hope that explains it better for you.
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Post by mecano04 on Jan 28, 2020 1:18:30 GMT
With you on Phoenix, he was remarkable, although Adam Driver was also incredible in Marriage Story. The real injustice is that Willem Dafoe wasn't even nominated for The Lighthouse, he gave the best performance I saw in 2019, by a pretty wide margin. Alas, while Phoenix is deserving, I wouldn't mind if Driver took home the prize. As for the rest of the movie beyond Phoenix, I thought it was kinda mixed. Phillips' setting is great, there are some great sequences, particularly in the first act, but too many homages to Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, to the point where it actually became distracting for me - there are a handful of shots directly taken from those movies. Do it once and make your point and then move on. The subplot with the mom and Thomas Wayne just didn't work for me at all. That, and the whole imaginary girlfriend thing, it's pretty simply conveyed the second she walks into the room and she sees Arthur sitting there and she looks legit terrified, you don't need to have a Fight Clubesque revision of various scenes previously shown. I prefer it when directors trust their audiences a bit more than that. Plus, the ending was kinda silly. Just one man's humble opinion. I'm also puzzled that The Lighthouse got only 1 nomination.
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Post by MCDemuth on Jan 28, 2020 1:21:34 GMT
Just gonna say in response to people saying Joker and the Master are overrated: what the fuck kind of criticism is saying a movie is overrated? You not liking a movie as much as other people isn't a valid criticism. Yeah, I hate how people usually use these terms... because they almost always use them backwards... Anyone is full of arrogant BS is they think THEIR singular opinion is more important than what the combined opinion of what the majority's views happens to be... So, you hated the movie? Well, that's perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone has different tastes... But, your opinion UNDERRATES the views of what everyone else happens to think about it... They did not OVERRATE anything! They truly enjoyed it!... ( Well, with the exceptions of Trolls & Shills, of course, but good luck proving to the rest of us that EVERYONE ELSE falls under either one of those categories...) If you loved the movie, but no one else did? Then YOUR opinion is OVERRATED. And as noted... OVERRATED & UNDERRATED? Yeah, Who Cares? All that implies to us, is that you felt differently about a movie, then what everyone else thought about it... But it doesn't tell the rest of us, Why you happen to feel that way... So why bother saying that you didn't like a movie, if you aren't even going to say why?
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Post by masterofallgoons on Jan 28, 2020 12:46:07 GMT
With you on Phoenix, he was remarkable, although Adam Driver was also incredible in Marriage Story. The real injustice is that Willem Dafoe wasn't even nominated for The Lighthouse, he gave the best performance I saw in 2019, by a pretty wide margin. Alas, while Phoenix is deserving, I wouldn't mind if Driver took home the prize. As for the rest of the movie beyond Phoenix, I thought it was kinda mixed. Phillips' setting is great, there are some great sequences, particularly in the first act, but too many homages to Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy, to the point where it actually became distracting for me - there are a handful of shots directly taken from those movies. Do it once and make your point and then move on. The subplot with the mom and Thomas Wayne just didn't work for me at all. That, and the whole imaginary girlfriend thing, it's pretty simply conveyed the second she walks into the room and she sees Arthur sitting there and she looks legit terrified, you don't need to have a Fight Clubesque revision of various scenes previously shown. I prefer it when directors trust their audiences a bit more than that. Plus, the ending was kinda silly. Just one man's humble opinion. Willem Dafoe really was excellent. He toed the line of drama, absurdity, rage, madness, etc. that that movie required in such a specific way. I also thought Lupita Nyongo in Us was really remarkable. Whatever anybody thinks of the movie, I don't think it's deniable that she was extraordinary gave two of the best performances of the year. But to me the best performance I saw, far and away, was Florence Pugh in Midsommar. I haven't seen Marriage Story yet though. The thing in Joker that bothered me the most was the revelation of the girlfriend just being in his head. It would have been a great moment if she had just not really recognized him when he was sitting there and we pieced it together. That was almost a great moment but then that little montage ruined it. Plus, I think it would have reinforced the theme of ambiguity of perception, which is what the movie was really all about, rather than completely negating it in that moment. The Thomas Wayne subplot is something I've gone back and forth on. On one hand I think it would have been more subversive had it not connected to Batman at all. If they never named the Wayne family, never told us this was Gotham city, never showed Bruce and Alfred, never showed Bruce in the alley. I think that would have set this apart as it's own thing that also could have some ties to the characters we think of. That might have gone further than the film ultimately did in terms of that same theme of interpretation and perception. If there were glancing, subtle references to where we were and if these were actually the characters we knew rather than making it directly clear and spoken it might have taken on a different meaning. On the other hand, the element with his mother is interesting. It seems at first that his mother is clearly delusional and that I took it at face value that Thomas Wayne was telling the truth and she was nuts. But.. that's one of the most intriguing elements, actually. She could have been telling the truth. It is possible. And if she is the madness that is in both Arthur could be in Bruce too... but forgetting that Batman connection, I still think the idea that we don't really know the answer to that is one of the keys to the movie. I also liked the ending. I think there are a lot of ways to read it, and I think that's the point, really. Yes, that ambiguous epilogue is a bit too much Taxi Driver as well, but it could possibly reframe everything because he'd be an extremely unreliable narrator if you take the ending as him narrating part of or all of the story. Or not. I'd agree it's a mixed bag. I think it looks great, there are great performances, especially the central performance of course, and I do think the script has some genuinely compelling intellectual ideas and questions. But the there are also miscues, like the song choice on the stairs, unsubtle moments that should have been less overt, and maybe some muddled sociopolitical messaging that doesn't necessarily land in the right way. Overall I'd still say it's an interesting and kinda daring film. I don't think this was an easy and obvious thing to do, and at the very least I appreciate the risk taking. Of course, the narrative around the movie is completely ludicrous and the overreaction to it in both directions makes it difficult for a lot fo people to just watch and judge it as a movie. It's neither the greatest masterpiece of our time or a soulless brainless moral bankruptcy or a call to white supremacist violence. It's a pretty good psychological drama with some excellent camera work and a possible career best performance from one of our best actors that maybe could have used another pass in the edit bay or a possibly a script polish.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 28, 2020 13:29:49 GMT
Phoenix was fantastic, and the score was used perfectly, other than that there isn't much to the film. As others have pointed out, it lays on the homage sauce a little heavy at times and the 'reveal' of the obviously imaginary girlfriend was insulting to the audience. I'm befuddled as to the Oscar hype surrounding this film involving anyone other than Phoenix.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jan 28, 2020 15:08:15 GMT
I thought the Joker was the best film of a year with tons of great films. Phoenix was masterful. I guess to each their own.
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Post by sdm3 on Jan 28, 2020 15:20:37 GMT
I found it to be very solid. Far behind Parasite and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood for best of the year, however.
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