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Post by Nicko's Nose on Aug 9, 2020 18:42:11 GMT
Everyone pretty much knows that truth hurts the MCU nerds. It's a cosmic hurt, you know. Universal. Whatever you say, X-Men/Evil Dead/everything else nerdy nerd.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 11, 2020 13:29:32 GMT
Another point about LOGAN and DEADPOOL clearly being alternate worlds and not the mainstream X-Men timeline:
At the end of "DARK PHOENIX", we see that Xavier's school changes name and is renamed AFTER JEAN GREY. In the positive ending of DOFP, they never mentioned the name of the school, so that's consistent with DP.
In LOGAN and DEADPOOL, the school is named after XAVIER "as always".
Well, Xavier would NEVER rename the school from JEAN GREY to HIMSELF again, that would be arrogant from his part and totally out of character.
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Post by dazz on Aug 11, 2020 15:23:51 GMT
Another point about LOGAN and DEADPOOL clearly being alternate worlds and not the mainstream X-Men timeline: At the end of "DARK PHOENIX", we see that Xavier's school changes name and is renamed AFTER JEAN GREY. In the positive ending of DOFP, they never mentioned the name of the school, so that's consistent with DP. In LOGAN and DEADPOOL, the school is named after XAVIER "as always". Well, Xavier would NEVER rename the school from JEAN GREY to HIMSELF again, that would be arrogant from his part and totally out of character. Except that is YOUR OPINION, where as the opinion of the director of the movie is that it is set a few years after the end of DOFP, hmm who should people consider the authority here? you the self proclaimed expert who has to constantly revise his "definitive" timelines to correct the countless mistakes he makes that he is unable to realise of his own and needs others to literally spell out repeatedly how and why those theories are idiotic? Or the actual director who was hired to make the film and whose vision forged the masterpiece itself? Jeez it's a real toss up here isn't it? This isn't to say that this means the timeline works out perfectly, as is typical with the X-Men films little care to maintain continuity where it doesn't suit them is not a major factor, but still Mangold says it's set just a few years after the good future in DOFP, so that kind of settles that. Also there is not A mainstream timeline for the X-Men movies, there are TWO mainstream timelines of the X-Men movie, see that's what happen when you use time travel to create a new timeline, it means there are TWO timelines.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Aug 11, 2020 16:30:35 GMT
Another point about LOGAN and DEADPOOL clearly being alternate worlds and not the mainstream X-Men timeline: At the end of "DARK PHOENIX", we see that Xavier's school changes name and is renamed AFTER JEAN GREY. In the positive ending of DOFP, they never mentioned the name of the school, so that's consistent with DP. In LOGAN and DEADPOOL, the school is named after XAVIER "as always". Well, Xavier would NEVER rename the school from JEAN GREY to HIMSELF again, that would be arrogant from his part and totally out of character. Except that is YOUR OPINION, where as the opinion of the director of the movie is that it is set a few years after the end of DOFP, hmm who should people consider the authority here? you the self proclaimed expert who has to constantly revise his "definitive" timelines to correct the countless mistakes he makes that he is unable to realise of his own and needs others to literally spell out repeatedly how and why those theories are idiotic? Or the actual director who was hired to make the film and whose vision forged the masterpiece itself? Jeez it's a real toss up here isn't it? This isn't to say that this means the timeline works out perfectly, as is typical with the X-Men films little care to maintain continuity where it doesn't suit them is not a major factor, but still Mangold says it's set just a few years after the good future in DOFP, so that kind of settles that. Also there is not A mainstream timeline for the X-Men movies, there are TWO mainstream timelines of the X-Men movie, see that's what happen when you use time travel to create a new timeline, it means there are TWO timelines, I know you find numbers hard but Christ even a 4 year old could figure this one out. Reality is a lot more fun (and manageable) when you can make it up as you go along.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Aug 11, 2020 23:53:20 GMT
THE X-MEN LIVE ACTION FRANCHISE is a multiuniverse. Deadpool, Logan, Legion, The Gifted and so on...
Despite having its timeline partially "overwritten" (from 1973 onward), the mainstream universe has ONE timeline. Being overwritten, yes, but it's one timeline belonging to one universe. This means that the timeline did not split into two timelines, like it frequently happens in the MARVEL comic books.
What are you talking about is a scenario that JAMES CAMERON conceived and that Simon Kinberg and Bryan Singer used for DOFP. Past and future TEMPORARILY run on parallel tracks, despite being BOTH part of the VERY SAME SINGLE TIMELINE. The "rearranging" of the timeline only occurs when 2023 Wolverine's consciousness comes back into his own 2023 body.
As you should already know, in the comic books, the DAYS OF FUTURE PAST future revealed itself to be an alternate world, so Rachel Summers/Phoenix (later codenamed Marvel Girl 2 or Prestige) comes from another dimension, not the mainstream future of the 616 Marvel Universe.
On the other hand, the AGE OF APOCALYPSE event created a new timeline, that still exists today.
THAT SAID, there is no "new timeline" featuring the original events (X-Men Origins, X1, X2, The Last Stand, The Wolverine) and running parallel to the ALTERED Mainstream Timeline (DOFP, Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix). It's not like comic books.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Oct 9, 2021 10:14:38 GMT
I fixed my points.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Oct 11, 2021 17:06:40 GMT
I’ll take your word for it. "Logan" invalidates all X-Men movies. Mutants become extinct. Xavier's dream fails. C'est la vie.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Oct 11, 2021 20:16:04 GMT
"Logan" invalidates all X-Men movies. Mutants become extinct. Xavier's dream fails. C'est la vie. In that standalone universe. The NOIR version of the movie further underlines the concept.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2021 22:57:32 GMT
I don’t think it invalidated anything. Not all endings have to be happy. I rather liked that the humans succumbed to their worst desires and more or less eliminated mutants. It’s cynical, but it fits the franchise perfectly. Xavier accidentally killing the X Men was perhaps too dark… but it was clearly a direct nod to the opening of the Old Man Logan comic where Logan does the same thing.
Also, Charles’ dream does not fail. He and Logan save the children and allow a new generation of mutants to go free.
Logan is canon and it should have been where the franchise ended. The next two movies were gratuitous.
That said, I could definitely understand not liking it or wanting to simply end your rewatch after Days of Future Past. I did that last time I watched these. DoFP works as a solid finale.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Oct 12, 2021 8:50:05 GMT
I don’t think it invalidated anything. Not all endings have to be happy. I rather liked that the humans succumbed to their worst desires and more or less eliminated mutants. It’s cynical, but it fits the franchise perfectly. Xavier accidentally killing the X Men was perhaps too dark… but it was clearly a direct nod to the opening of the Old Man Logan comic where Logan does the same thing. Also, Charles’ dream does not fail. He and Logan save the children and allow a new generation of mutants to go free. Logan is canon and it should have been where the franchise ended. The next two movies were gratuitous. That said, I could definitely understand not liking it or wanting to simply end your rewatch after Days of Future Past. I did that last time I watched these. DoFP works as a solid finale. I like "Logan", and it's a terrific movie. This doesn't change that it's supposed to be an alternate universe, and even Mangold and Marvel aknowledged it. It was a dark and bleak "What If" story, and we love it for that. The real ending of the franchise was DOFP, because it makes the entire saga worthwhile and meaningful in terms of story-arc and message.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2021 17:10:30 GMT
I don’t think it invalidated anything. Not all endings have to be happy. I rather liked that the humans succumbed to their worst desires and more or less eliminated mutants. It’s cynical, but it fits the franchise perfectly. Xavier accidentally killing the X Men was perhaps too dark… but it was clearly a direct nod to the opening of the Old Man Logan comic where Logan does the same thing. Also, Charles’ dream does not fail. He and Logan save the children and allow a new generation of mutants to go free. Logan is canon and it should have been where the franchise ended. The next two movies were gratuitous. That said, I could definitely understand not liking it or wanting to simply end your rewatch after Days of Future Past. I did that last time I watched these. DoFP works as a solid finale. I like "Logan", and it's a terrific movie. This doesn't change that it's supposed to be an alternate universe, and even Mangold and Marvel aknowledged it. It was a dark and bleak "What If" story, and we love it for that. The real ending of the franchise was DOFP, because it makes the entire saga worthwhile and meaningful in terms of story-arc and message. It was a have your cake and eat it too scenario for the filmmakers, I suppose. I thought it was kind of cowardly of them to suggest this and suspected it was likely a studio mandated talking point. I personally consider it the end of the main canon, as there is absolutely nothing in the film to suggest it’s an alternate universe. But as I said, sometimes it’s nice to just end at DoFP and enjoy the happy ending. DoFP is a terrific film.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Oct 13, 2021 19:48:49 GMT
I like "Logan", and it's a terrific movie. This doesn't change that it's supposed to be an alternate universe, and even Mangold and Marvel aknowledged it. It was a dark and bleak "What If" story, and we love it for that. The real ending of the franchise was DOFP, because it makes the entire saga worthwhile and meaningful in terms of story-arc and message. But as I said, sometimes it’s nice to just end at DoFP and enjoy the happy ending. DoFP is a terrific film.
DOFP is the ending. And it's a great ending. "Logan" is indeed a wonderful "What If" story, inspired by the Old Man Logan comic book universe.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 19:52:55 GMT
But as I said, sometimes it’s nice to just end at DoFP and enjoy the happy ending. DoFP is a terrific film.
DOFP is the ending. And it's a great ending. "Logan" is indeed a wonderful "What If" story, inspired by the Old Man Logan comic book universe.
If someone were to watch these films without knowing that the director/studio made off hand comments about it being a What If story would that person then have any reason whatsoever to think it was a What If story? There is nothing in the movie to suggest that it isn’t canon or in any way deviates from the previous versions of the characters or the established canonical universe.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Oct 13, 2021 19:54:39 GMT
DOFP is the ending. And it's a great ending. "Logan" is indeed a wonderful "What If" story, inspired by the Old Man Logan comic book universe.
If someone were to watch these films without knowing that the director/studio made off hand comments about it being a What If story would that person then have any reason whatsoever to think it was a What If story? There is nothing in the movie to suggest that it isn’t canon.
Read my original post. There are several points explained. Caliban is the biggest red herring, as well as the overall tone. That said, having the movie looking like a noir B/W helps supporting the notion even further.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 19:57:48 GMT
If someone were to watch these films without knowing that the director/studio made off hand comments about it being a What If story would that person then have any reason whatsoever to think it was a What If story? There is nothing in the movie to suggest that it isn’t canon.
Read my original post. There are several points explained. Caliban is the biggest red herring, as well as the overall tone. That said, having the movie looking like a noir B/W helps supporting the notion even further.
I don’t know. I will personally always think of it as canon but that’s just me, I guess. I haven’t seen the “Noir” version. I never saw the point of it. There is really nothing Noirish about the movie or it’s cinematography so I don’t know what the B&W would add.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Oct 13, 2021 20:02:32 GMT
Read my original post. There are several points explained. Caliban is the biggest red herring, as well as the overall tone. That said, having the movie looking like a noir B/W helps supporting the notion even further.
I don’t know. I will personally always think of it as canon but that’s just me, I guess. I haven’t seen the “Noir” version. I never saw the point of it. There is really nothing Noirish about the movie or it’s cinematography so I don’t know what the B&W would add.
Quite simple, having the movie in B/W underlines its "standalone" quality in comparison with the rest of the franchise.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 20:03:23 GMT
I don’t know. I will personally always think of it as canon but that’s just me, I guess. I haven’t seen the “Noir” version. I never saw the point of it. There is really nothing Noirish about the movie or it’s cinematography so I don’t know what the B&W would add.
Quite simple, having the movie in B/W underlines its "standalone" quality in comparison with the rest of the franchise.
So the Noir version is a What If… but maybe the theatrical is canon?
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Oct 13, 2021 20:05:31 GMT
Quite simple, having the movie in B/W underlines its "standalone" quality in comparison with the rest of the franchise.
So the Noir version is a What If… but maybe the theatrical is canon?
Apart from the chromatic change, they are 100% identical.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 20:06:25 GMT
So the Noir version is a What If… but maybe the theatrical is canon?
Apart from the chromatic change, they are 100% identical.
Oh.
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Post by Wolverine10005 on Nov 12, 2022 19:50:23 GMT
This is it.
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