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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 16, 2017 16:54:56 GMT
Or you just don't want them to be explanations. You want to not like the movie. Didn't say living with your parents. So them being the "ruling government of the household" is moot. Again, you are using one definition of rebel to make your point when there are other definitions. I gave you another definition that has nothing to do with a ruling government. It was a lame definition on your part. I explained why. You just don't want to accept it. You don't rebel against rebels. But that's exactly the logic that the movie used. But keep trying to explain it away. It's entertaining. Or you don't. Is the 1st order the rebels at this point? There is no government anymore. Even if it happened "yesterday", the Republic is no more. They are now rebelling against a powerful entity that has placed themselves at the top of that power vacuum. Without the Starkiller base they are now the most powerful group in the galaxy. So, yes, even by your definition, they can rebel against that. Also, aren't they in First Order space? Aren't they the ones in charge of that area?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 16:56:49 GMT
. But Rey, Finn and Poe are just getting started. Did you look at this as some kind of ending? Don't care about Finn and Poe. Yes, Rey's story is over or may as well be because it is no longer interesting. No, wrong. Those - except Palpatine - were all lieutenants, like Kylo. Palpatine was the big bad in all of the first six movies, with ANH being somewhat of an exception. Snoke was that episodic villain Well, he was supposed to be the case, but then Rian Johnson shat all over the character. You call that a duel? Except he didn't fight him. Wasn't there and all he did was duck a couple times. And then died from the effort which makes zero sense. Which is just shitty writing. Except Snoke didn't turn his attention away from Luke. That was still one of his top priorities, but then Johnson snipped that thread before it even started to develop. No she doesn't. Yoda blew them up with his newfound weather control abilities. That was already established in TFA except Johnson shit the bed on that one, too. They were called the Knights of Ren, but we didn't hear shit about them in this movie, did we? Way to go RJ!!!!!
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Surly
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Post by Surly on Dec 16, 2017 17:09:53 GMT
It was a lame definition on your part. I explained why. You just don't want to accept it. You don't rebel against rebels. But that's exactly the logic that the movie used. But keep trying to explain it away. It's entertaining. Or you don't. Is the 1st order the rebels at this point? There is no government anymore. Even if it happened "yesterday", the Republic is no more. They are now rebelling against a powerful entity that has placed themselves at the top of that power vacuum. Without the Starkiller base they are now the most powerful group in the galaxy. So, yes, even by your definition, they can rebel against that. Also, aren't they in First Order space? Aren't they the ones in charge of that area? Yeah the First Order are the rebels. The Resistance is fighting their rebellion. And you're contradicting yourself. First you say that the First Order rule the galaxy because the Republic Capitol was destroyed, but then you say all of the battles are in First Order territory. Wait? What? Do the First Order rule the galaxy or not? You can keep spinning it 50 ways to Sunday, pal. The Resistance is an organization that's goal was to crush the rebellion of the First Order. You don't rebel against rebels.
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agentblue
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Post by agentblue on Dec 16, 2017 17:11:54 GMT
Yeah that was dissapointing, he hasnt done an onscreen duel since ROTJ.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 16, 2017 17:14:14 GMT
. But Rey, Finn and Poe are just getting started. Did you look at this as some kind of ending? Don't care about Finn and Poe. Yes, Rey's story is over or may as well be because it is no longer interesting. No, wrong. Those - except Palpatine - were all lieutenants, like Kylo. Palpatine was the big bad in all of the first six movies, with ANH being somewhat of an exception. Snoke was that episodic villain Well, he was supposed to be the case, but then Rian Johnson shat all over the character. You call that a duel? Except he didn't fight him. Wasn't there and all he did was duck a couple times. And then died from the effort which makes zero sense. Which is just shitty writing. Except Snoke didn't turn his attention away from Luke. That was still one of his top priorities, but then Johnson snipped that thread before it even started to develop. No she doesn't. Yoda blew them up with his newfound weather control abilities. That was already established in TFA except Johnson shit the bed on that one, too. They were called the Knights of Ren, but we didn't hear shit about them in this movie, did we? Way to go RJ!!!!! Palpatine is obviously not the big bad if the movies are still going. He was the villain of RotJ. With all the shake ups at Lucasfilm, you really think they would have allowed Johnson to kill off Snoke if they didn't want him to? Yes, I call that a duel. They fought even if it wasn't with lightsabers. Wizard fight. Doesn't have to be physical. He used "magic" on him and we had our "You shall not pass" moment. Or the writing you didn't want. By the end they didn't care about Luke in TFA. It was all about the girl. At the end, when Finn goes through a drawer to get a blanket for Rose. He brushes the books in that very same drawer. Rey put all the books in the Falcon. So... Yes, Rey has all the books. And weather control abilities or manipulating the Force from within the Force? He's very powerful. Was it established that the Knights of Ren were Kylo's students? They were established as being former students of Luke's that joined Ben. They gave no backstory for them in TFA, but they did in TLJ.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 16, 2017 17:27:47 GMT
Or you don't. Is the 1st order the rebels at this point? There is no government anymore. Even if it happened "yesterday", the Republic is no more. They are now rebelling against a powerful entity that has placed themselves at the top of that power vacuum. Without the Starkiller base they are now the most powerful group in the galaxy. So, yes, even by your definition, they can rebel against that. Also, aren't they in First Order space? Aren't they the ones in charge of that area? Yeah the First Order are the rebels. The Resistance is fighting their rebellion. And you're contradicting yourself. First you say that the First Order rule the galaxy because the Republic Capitol was destroyed, but then you say all of the battles are in First Order territory. Wait? What? Do the First Order rule the galaxy or not? You can keep spinning it 50 ways to Sunday, pal. The Resistance is an organization that's goal was to crush the rebellion of the First Order. You don't rebel against rebels. No, I asked if they were in First Order space. The Republic was ignoring the First Order because they were keeping to themselves in their own part of the galaxy. By taking out the Republic they expanded. But! The Resistance was there to stop the First Order from expanding on their own. They weren't a part of the Republic military. They were a militia that took it upon themselves to keep tabs on the First Order. How do you do that? From within or at the border of First Order space. If an invading force is actively taking over your territory you do. They are on that line of shifting governments. One is gone and a force is filling that vacuum. So yeah, shifting over into being a rebellion as the movie goes on.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 16, 2017 17:30:35 GMT
Uh, Luke didn't fail in the end at all. Everything in that ending served it's purpose. Luke getting angry and almost killing his father and then resisting when pushed by the Emperor was the breaking point for the Emperor because Luke essentially overcame the Dark Side. And in case you missed it, he threw down his lightsaber as well, so had no intentions of striking down the Emperor either. And Luke being electrocuted while pleading for his father was the breaking point for Vader and ultimately what brought him back to the right side. It was a redemption act for Vader. The scene wouldn't work if you took any of those elements out of it Yeah so it was really about Vader. Luke was not really the driving point of the story-which is what I was saying, Not traditionally heroic at all. His victimhood is what gets Vader to act. Yeah, the father protects the son, but if you look at it from hero and action, Luke is compromised. And then he is moping and doesn't feel better until he sees the ghosts.
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Surly
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Post by Surly on Dec 16, 2017 17:59:25 GMT
Yeah the First Order are the rebels. The Resistance is fighting their rebellion. And you're contradicting yourself. First you say that the First Order rule the galaxy because the Republic Capitol was destroyed, but then you say all of the battles are in First Order territory. Wait? What? Do the First Order rule the galaxy or not? You can keep spinning it 50 ways to Sunday, pal. The Resistance is an organization that's goal was to crush the rebellion of the First Order. You don't rebel against rebels. No, I asked if they were in First Order space. The Republic was ignoring the First Order because they were keeping to themselves in their own part of the galaxy. By taking out the Republic they expanded. But! The Resistance was there to stop the First Order from expanding on their own. They weren't a part of the Republic military. They were a militia that took it upon themselves to keep tabs on the First Order. How do you do that? From within or at the border of First Order space. If an invading force is actively taking over your territory you do. They are on that line of shifting governments. One is gone and a force is filling that vacuum. So yeah, shifting over into being a rebellion as the movie goes on. Sure, pal. Keep drinking your own KoolAid. Not buying it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 19:45:34 GMT
No, I said Palps was the big bad in the first six movies. Snoke should have been the big bad of this trilogy. Kylo as the big bad makes zero sense given the way his story developed over the first two films. Dude, it lasted about five seconds. Don't be obtuse. Go back and watch the first seven movies and tell me which of those movies didn't contain a duel that was at least five times longer than this one. When Star Wars movies lose Jedi/Sith kind of saber dueling, they lose me as a fan. I have no problem with doing something like this, so long as there had already been traditional duels in the film. No dude, that was shitty. That was social media-level irreverence. While I agree that Snoke was highly interested in Rey, he hadn't disregarded Luke. To say so it just untrue and is proven by the fact that he continues to worry about it in TLJ. Damn, now I can say that Rian Johnson did ONE thing right. Thanks for pointing that out, I missed it. It gives me no hope, though, because whatever is in those books (if that even gets revealed, because if I were Abrams, I would just use Ep. IX to shit all over what Johnson just did), I'm sure the creative team at Disney will fuck it up. I have no confidence in them now. And I used to celebrate them. I shouldn't have said it that way. What I meant was that the next wave of dark siders already exists, but I wanted to point out that they were completely ignored by Johnson. As to whose students they were, I don't think it's a stretch to say they're Kylo's now. He was the most powerful, they followed him, so he's their leader. He offered to teach Rey in TFA. Ipso facto, yeah, they probably actually are his "students."
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Dec 16, 2017 20:10:58 GMT
I meant what I said months ago. If they fucked up Luke I would never forgive them. I haven't seen the film yet but it sounds like I won't be forgiving Disney.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 16, 2017 22:40:29 GMT
Another thing with Hamill is he was doing the fandom stuff before SW opened. He promoted the film at a convention in 76. I have a book on Ray Harryhausen and there's a picture of him interviewing Kerwin Matthews for a magazine in the early 70s.
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Post by azzajones on Dec 16, 2017 22:48:31 GMT
They made Luke someone that he is not according to who he was in the OT. It's not too much to ask for the characterization of the OT stars to be honored and have them step out of the limelight with integrity to the character. They just don't care. Luke is also 30 years older and broken. But you can see that old Luke pop out a lot in the movie. Luke being a lone Jedi and having to train a new generation alone had no support for failing. He couldn't handle it. And from this movie, his support didn't come until much later. You see what happened when his support did show up. His characterization was on point. He just wasn't the EU Luke that had continued stories to rely on. Luke had no support from Yoda, Obi-wan, Anakin, Leia, Han or the Church of the Force. While I'm at it, how much support does Rey have going forward, assuming she trains young Jedi in the future?
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Dec 16, 2017 22:56:25 GMT
Uh, Luke didn't fail in the end at all. Everything in that ending served it's purpose. Luke getting angry and almost killing his father and then resisting when pushed by the Emperor was the breaking point for the Emperor because Luke essentially overcame the Dark Side. And in case you missed it, he threw down his lightsaber as well, so had no intentions of striking down the Emperor either. And Luke being electrocuted while pleading for his father was the breaking point for Vader and ultimately what brought him back to the right side. It was a redemption act for Vader. The scene wouldn't work if you took any of those elements out of it Yeah so it was really about Vader. Luke was not really the driving point of the story-which is what I was saying, Not traditionally heroic at all. His victimhood is what gets Vader to act. Yeah, the father protects the son, but if you look at it from hero and action, Luke is compromised. And then he is moping and doesn't feel better until he sees the ghosts. Luke is the hero. He was essentially willing to die if that brought back Vader. Like I said, he threw his lightsaber down and already beat the Emperor on one level by resisting the Dark side, so he knew the Emperor was probably going to kill him. And not sure where you're getting this liberal agenda with the original series. I see nothing wrong with Lando destroying the Death Star. If you really have a problem with it because he's black, then fuck off
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Post by harpospoke on Dec 16, 2017 23:59:02 GMT
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Dec 17, 2017 0:45:48 GMT
Luke is the hero. He was essentially willing to die if that brought back Vader. Like I said, he threw his lightsaber down and already beat the Emperor on one level by resisting the Dark side, so he knew the Emperor was probably going to kill him. And not sure where you're getting this liberal agenda with the original series. I see nothing wrong with Lando destroying the Death Star. If you really have a problem with it because he's black, then fuck off He said "soon I'll be dead and you with me." He expected the rebels to blow up the Death star but the Emperor knew the plan and Luke was obviously not expecting it. Whatever you say-Luke was not a traditional hero. Lando was more of the traditional hero.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 17, 2017 15:59:56 GMT
Luke is also 30 years older and broken. But you can see that old Luke pop out a lot in the movie. Luke being a lone Jedi and having to train a new generation alone had no support for failing. He couldn't handle it. And from this movie, his support didn't come until much later. You see what happened when his support did show up. His characterization was on point. He just wasn't the EU Luke that had continued stories to rely on. Luke had no support from Yoda, Obi-wan, Anakin, Leia, Han or the Church of the Force. While I'm at it, how much support does Rey have going forward, assuming she trains young Jedi in the future? None. Hopefully she can train some Knights to help her before things jump off with Kylo. Even in the EU Luke had support from low level Knights to back him up in the beginning.
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Post by azzajones on Dec 17, 2017 22:44:56 GMT
So if Luke had no support and now Rey has no support, and wasn't properly trained, how are things going to turn out differently for Rey as compared to Luke? Simple, because the writers say so.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 17, 2017 23:33:58 GMT
Or... Hear me out... Or this movie was not about Luke. He is of the old guard and was only there to give context on Kylo. To be a point of view on an event. He was not there to be Obi Wan Kenobi and fight his old pupil to the death. Luke had his time and it was 2 episodes ago. Nope. If youre going to bring a character back, and one as central as this one is to this series, you at least give him a decent send off. They did it with Han. At least his death was dramatic as he was killed by his son. Lukes death would have been awesome... right up until we found out he wasnt really there at all. And then he dies... from what? Exertion?! Wtf?
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 18, 2017 15:34:39 GMT
Or... Hear me out... Or this movie was not about Luke. He is of the old guard and was only there to give context on Kylo. To be a point of view on an event. He was not there to be Obi Wan Kenobi and fight his old pupil to the death. Luke had his time and it was 2 episodes ago. Nope. If youre going to bring a character back, and one as central as this one is to this series, you at least give him a decent send off. They did it with Han. At least his death was dramatic as he was killed by his son. Lukes death would have been awesome... right up until we found out he wasnt really there at all. And then he dies... from what? Exertion?! Wtf? Yes. But what he really died from (in a fantasy world) is finished business. Luke found himself weak and afraid and a failure. He left everyone, closed himself off from the Force and was living his life in solitude until he died. His pep talk with Yoda brought him back. He had that moment of closure in the end. Hopefully Abrams is smart enough to bring him back as a Force ghost so he can council Rey.
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Post by kuatorises on Dec 18, 2017 17:25:58 GMT
He was put thru all that training and working out for The Force Awakens, obviously with the intention of being much more active in Last Jedi, yet we're teased a dual pretty much, but all Luke does is just dodge a few swings from Kylo. I was expecting a full dual akin to ROTJ. Mark was able to drop 50lbs while in his 60s just to return as Luke. And he clearly looks in good shape and everything at 66. I wouldn't expect him to be flipping and twirling with his lightsaber, but he could have easily done another dual against Kylo similar to ROTJ Isn't that a little cliche/predictable?
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