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Post by Skaathar on Dec 22, 2017 17:13:37 GMT
He didn't "pole vault" to the other side of the mountain. Pole vault implies that you used a pole to lift yourself up and catapult you over something. Luke simply used rode the pole like a lever to get from one side of the mountain to the other. No running, jumping or vaulting involved. And you don't know how he got that fish up since it wasn't shown. He could have had a basket down there that he just pulled up with a rope. Or were you assuming that an old man without the force is capable of lifting that entire gigantic pole up to the very end, getting the fish, then putting it back in? Because that's an even worse assumption. As for walking, walking a few kilometers a day is not enough to get you flat abs, especially not if you're that old. My main point stands: Hamill could have been 50 lbs. heavier and it wouldn't have looked out of place for his role. You still have to get momentum to get to the other side. There was no basket or rope near him. Wait... So you guys want him to go all awesome on Kylo at the end of the movie, but you are saying he shouldn't be able to lift that giant spear with a fish that he carried back to his home? I think you're missing the point here. No one is saying that Luke wasn't moving around in that island. What I'm saying is that he wasn't moving enough to warrant a 50 pound weight loss. Sure he needed momentum to swing the pole from one side to the next, but that's not exactly burning up a hundred calories. And yes, we wanted him to have a physical battle with Kylo at the end but it DIDN'T happen, which is why I'm saying that there was literally no reason why Mark Hamill was asked to get in shape.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 22, 2017 21:15:20 GMT
So you are basing your argument on a 19 year old idealistic kid? And no, I'm basing my characterization on the Luke from the OT. The one that made rash decisions when alone, but was the level headed one when he was with Han. Yes, Luke wanted to bring Vader back to the light, but at the same time, he was going for the kill when angered. And how did he bring Vader back to the light? He cried for his daddy. And it did fit his character. 30 years ago. When he was that idealistic kid not knowing what he was getting into. Now he knows what he's getting into and he knows that it won't work. Luke didn't turn Vader back to the light. His presence did. Him calling for his daddy while being electrocuted is what turned Vader back. That will not work on Ben. Even Han couldn't turn him back. There's one problem, buddy. I'm basing Luke off of the entire OT also. Yeah, he called Han a selfish coward when he was only 19. But what did Luke do when he sensed his friends in trouble on Cloud City? He flew off to help them. What did Luke do in ROTJ when a battle plan was being made? He wanted to join the cause. What did Luke do when he sensed some of the Light side in Vader? He left the mission alone to try and turn his father who he refused to give up on. And he was willing to sacrifice himself to achieve the goals. What did Luke do between TESB and ROTJ? He had been thoroughly beaten by Vader. And he was completely disheartened by it. He felt lost without Ben Kenobi. But did he sulk like a negative Nancy nine year old? No! He regrouped himself and went to Tattooine to rescue Han and ultimately everyone else.So, yeah. As you can see l can make that claim that my characterization of Luke is based off of the entire OT also. So you are saying he left the more important to go do something selfish? Try to save daddy so he wouldn't die when they blew up the Death Star? Selfish. You know he was still the idealistic youth all through the OT. Getting electrocuted after going psycho on the dad he was there to save could change a man.
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Surly
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Post by Surly on Dec 22, 2017 21:56:51 GMT
There's one problem, buddy. I'm basing Luke off of the entire OT also. Yeah, he called Han a selfish coward when he was only 19. But what did Luke do when he sensed his friends in trouble on Cloud City? He flew off to help them. What did Luke do in ROTJ when a battle plan was being made? He wanted to join the cause. What did Luke do when he sensed some of the Light side in Vader? He left the mission alone to try and turn his father who he refused to give up on. And he was willing to sacrifice himself to achieve the goals. What did Luke do between TESB and ROTJ? He had been thoroughly beaten by Vader. And he was completely disheartened by it. He felt lost without Ben Kenobi. But did he sulk like a negative Nancy nine year old? No! He regrouped himself and went to Tattooine to rescue Han and ultimately everyone else.So, yeah. As you can see l can make that claim that my characterization of Luke is based off of the entire OT also. So you are saying he left the more important to go do something selfish?Β Try to save daddy so he wouldn't die when they blew up the Death Star?Β Selfish. You know he was still the idealistic youth all through the OT.Β Getting electrocuted after going psycho on the dad he was there to save could change a man. Lol! That's a really exaggerated definition of selfish. But you forgot the part where Luke told Leia before he left that as long as he stayed with them he would be endangering the mission. Because Vader and Luke could sense each other since he had arrived on Endor. I suppose you're going to say that's selfish also, for some crackpot line of reasoning. Lol!
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 23, 2017 15:05:17 GMT
So you are saying he left the more important to go do something selfish? Try to save daddy so he wouldn't die when they blew up the Death Star? Selfish. You know he was still the idealistic youth all through the OT. Getting electrocuted after going psycho on the dad he was there to save could change a man. Lol! That's a really exaggerated definition of selfish. But you forgot the part where Luke told Leia before he left that as long as he stayed with them he would be endangering the mission. Because Vader and Luke could sense each other since he had arrived on Endor. I suppose you're going to say that's selfish also, for some crackpot line of reasoning. Lol! They might have sensed each other when they were in close proximity (the shuttle flying right outside the bridge to the Star Destroyer). They couldn't sense each other as long as he was on the moon and Vader was on the Star Destroyer. They called Vader down when a guy came to them with a lightsaber. You see, if Vader absolutely knew that Luke was on that moon and the shuttle was full of rebels, don't you think he would have hound dogged Luke through that forest following his Force trail? Luke thinking he was endangering the mission was Luke's anxiety. Also, remember, Leia told him to leave the area and if he could still find him then leave this place (Endor). Nope, Luke had to go to him. Like they were sending each other vibes. Another thing. The Imperial that brought Luke to Vader said that there might be more rebels in the area (although Luke denied it). And they prepared for rebels being in the forest. So Luke endangered the mission because of his selfishness... Nobody knew they were there.
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Surly
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Post by Surly on Dec 23, 2017 15:59:16 GMT
Lol! That's a really exaggerated definition of selfish. But you forgot the part where Luke told Leia before he left that as long as he stayed with them he would be endangering the mission. Because Vader and Luke could sense each other since he had arrived on Endor. I suppose you're going to say that's selfish also, for some crackpot line of reasoning. Lol! They might have sensed each other when they were in close proximity (the shuttle flying right outside the bridge to the Star Destroyer).Β They couldn't sense each other as long as he was on the moon and Vader was on the Star Destroyer.Β They called Vader down when a guy came to them with a lightsaber.Β You see, if Vader absolutely knew that Luke was on that moon and the shuttle was full of rebels, don't you think he would have hound dogged Luke through that forest following his Force trail? Boy, you really don't know ROTJ! Do you pal? The Emperor already knew that the Rebels were there. So did Vader. When Vader went to inform the Emperor, the Emperor told him that he already knew. The only thing the Emperor didn't know was that Luke was with them. Because Vader sensed Luke whereas Palpatine had not. This was all part of a trap that the Emperor was setting for the Rebels. Vader didn't go off into the forests to hunt them down because the Emperor instructed him not to. The Emperor told Vader to wait for Luke to come to him. He had foreseen it in a vision. "His compassion for you will be his undoing" the Emperor said. (By the way, compassion is not a selfish emotion). No, it was Luke realizing that his presence amongst the Rebels was like a homing beacon for Vader, since they could sense each other in the Force. So it gave Luke an additional reason to leave and confront Vader, and try to turn him back to the Light. Nothing selfish about that! The search Vader instructed the commander to continue would've only served to pinpoint an exact location of the Rebels. It would've had little consequences on the overall situation. Vader and the Emperor already knew they were in the area. And they already had a trap set for them. That's why Han, Leia, and company got caught and imprisoned. Until the Ewoks came to help them. Vader was just giving the commander an at-a-boy. Luke's action of going to Vader had no impact on endangering the mission. You keep turning that argument of yours on different sides. And just like Swiss cheese, it keeps coming up with holes.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 23, 2017 16:11:07 GMT
They might have sensed each other when they were in close proximity (the shuttle flying right outside the bridge to the Star Destroyer). They couldn't sense each other as long as he was on the moon and Vader was on the Star Destroyer. They called Vader down when a guy came to them with a lightsaber. You see, if Vader absolutely knew that Luke was on that moon and the shuttle was full of rebels, don't you think he would have hound dogged Luke through that forest following his Force trail? Boy, you really don't know ROTJ! Do you pal? The Emperor already knew that the Rebels were there. So did Vader. When Vader went to inform the Emperor, the Emperor told him that he already knew. The only thing the Emperor didn't know was that Luke was with them. Because Vader sensed Luke whereas Palpatine had not. This was all part of a trap that the Emperor was setting for the Rebels. Vader didn't go off into the forests to hunt them down because the Emperor instructed him not to. The Emperor told Vader to wait for Luke to come to him. He had foreseen it in a vision. "His compassion for you will be his undoing" the Emperor said. (By the way, compassion is not a selfish emotion). No, it was Luke realizing that his presence amongst the Rebels was like a homing beacon for Vader, since they could sense each other in the Force. So it gave Luke an additional reason to leave and confront Vader, and try to turn him back to the Light. Nothing selfish about that! The search Vader instructed the commander to continue would've only served to pinpoint an exact location of the Rebels. It would've had little consequences on the overall situation. Vader and the Emperor already knew they were in the area. And they already had a trap set for them. That's why Han, Leia, and company got caught and imprisoned. Until the Ewoks came to help them. Vader was just giving the commander an at-a-boy. Luke's action of going to Vader had no impact on endangering the mission. You keep turning that argument of yours on different sides. And just like Swiss cheese, it keeps coming up with holes. Yeah, I realized that a bit after posting, but didn't care to edit it cause I'm watching Colossal. Now back to Colossal and maybe Bright after it. Then some drawing.
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Post by harpospoke on Dec 25, 2017 3:42:34 GMT
But if you're Usain Bolt your 15 minutes of running is going to be way better than mine because you're USAIN FUCKING BOLT! That man will always run better faster harder than any of us.
Still, I get what you're saying. I guess I just wanted something more.
But if Usain Bolt lost his legs, then 10 years later got a new set artificially cloned for him, running 15 minutes after they were attached wouldn't be advisable right? Yes, most wanted Luke to be the hero they remember him being. Also, you guys know that Luke was not that hero you all remember him being, right? He was not this awesome fighter in either movie. Vader owned him until he got angry and Vader tripped on the bridge. Kylo would have wiped the floor with Luke then got a handful of salt from the ground and poured it in the wounds. Kylo's fighting is closer (not the same as, just closer) to the PT than the OT. Luke's heroism came more from confronting Vader and the Emperor and turning Vader. Depends on who was writing Kylo at any moment. Kylo can't really handle fighting against Rey....a Force novice. But he can find a way to kill Snoke...one of the most powerful Force users around. So who knows which way the writers would go with that. They are all over the place in this movie.
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 25, 2017 11:11:32 GMT
But if Usain Bolt lost his legs, then 10 years later got a new set artificially cloned for him, running 15 minutes after they were attached wouldn't be advisable right? Yes, most wanted Luke to be the hero they remember him being. Also, you guys know that Luke was not that hero you all remember him being, right? He was not this awesome fighter in either movie. Vader owned him until he got angry and Vader tripped on the bridge. Kylo would have wiped the floor with Luke then got a handful of salt from the ground and poured it in the wounds. Kylo's fighting is closer (not the same as, just closer) to the PT than the OT. Luke's heroism came more from confronting Vader and the Emperor and turning Vader. Depends on who was writing Kylo at any moment. Kylo can't really handle fighting against Rey....a Force novice. But he can find a way to kill Snoke...one of the most powerful Force users around. So who knows which way the writers would go with that. They are all over the place in this movie. Because Snoke is a known known. While Rey was a unknown known while at the same time Kylo being injured.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 25, 2017 13:58:09 GMT
But if Usain Bolt lost his legs, then 10 years later got a new set artificially cloned for him, running 15 minutes after they were attached wouldn't be advisable right? Yes, most wanted Luke to be the hero they remember him being. Also, you guys know that Luke was not that hero you all remember him being, right? He was not this awesome fighter in either movie. Vader owned him until he got angry and Vader tripped on the bridge. Kylo would have wiped the floor with Luke then got a handful of salt from the ground and poured it in the wounds. Kylo's fighting is closer (not the same as, just closer) to the PT than the OT. Luke's heroism came more from confronting Vader and the Emperor and turning Vader. Depends on who was writing Kylo at any moment. Kylo can't really handle fighting against Rey....a Force novice. But he can find a way to kill Snoke...one of the most powerful Force users around. So who knows which way the writers would go with that. They are all over the place in this movie. Kylo was injured when he fought Rey in TFA, and he was explicitly told not to harm her but to bring her to Snoke. Snoke dying from Kylo's fake-out here is no more worse than the Emperor dying from falling down a shaft.
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Post by harpospoke on Dec 26, 2017 6:16:48 GMT
Depends on who was writing Kylo at any moment. Kylo can't really handle fighting against Rey....a Force novice. But he can find a way to kill Snoke...one of the most powerful Force users around. So who knows which way the writers would go with that. They are all over the place in this movie. Kylo was injured when he fought Rey in TFA, and he was explicitly told not to harm her but to bring her to Snoke. Snoke dying from Kylo's fake-out here is no more worse than the Emperor dying from falling down a shaft. I get all that but she was also able to resist his mental Force usage before he was hurt. And didn't she hold her own with him in TLJ too? Funny thing is that I used to be right there with you saying that Rey was a street fighter for years (as shown in an early scene when she takes down Finn with ease). But this movie is so dumb that I don't have the passion to defend it now. They killed any idea that Rey was special after dropping multiple hints that her lineage was important in TFA...she's just common folk now with no background of note. The Emperor in RotJ wasn't portrayed as an omnipotent god who could mentally link people across a galaxy and know their most secret thoughts and motivations. I can buy that Vader surprised him.
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Post by darkpast on Dec 26, 2017 7:56:48 GMT
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 26, 2017 9:40:36 GMT
Kylo was injured when he fought Rey in TFA, and he was explicitly told not to harm her but to bring her to Snoke. Snoke dying from Kylo's fake-out here is no more worse than the Emperor dying from falling down a shaft. I get all that but she was also able to resist his mental Force usage before he was hurt. And didn't she hold her own with him in TLJ too? Despite Kylo being wounded (and using his wound for the fight) Fin and Rey were chanceless against him until Rey closed her eyes ("The Force?") and "downloaded"(JJ Abrams) the Force, and she then kicked Kylo ass good. I guess Rey already downloaded parts of the Force before she met Kylo or she could not have beaten him with the mind rape thing in TFA. So now you either "learn the ways of the Force" the old school way, or if you are smart you just download it and can defeat a trained Master of the Ren easily. It's pretty rad, if you can download stuff here, why not in Star Wars, yo? I can see nothing wrong with that at all, really.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 26, 2017 10:36:45 GMT
As for "special lineage"...that only really applies to the Skywalkers. I mean, Obi-Wan and Yoda and Palpatine were all great Force-Users with no special lineage.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Dec 26, 2017 12:13:30 GMT
As for "special lineage"...that only really applies to the Skywalkers. I mean, Obi-Wan and Yoda and Palpatine were all great Force-Users with no special lineage. I don't understand this shit of, "Disney's now made it so ANYONE can be a Jedi. Yay, diversity! Yay, girl power! Yay, individualism!!!1" That was always the case and never more so in the prequels when there were THOUSANDS OF JEDI, MALE AND FEMALE, FROM DOZENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF SPECIES. One -- ONE -- of whom happened to be Anakin Skywalker. Nothing has been changed about any of that, much less improved or "restored" by Disney.
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 26, 2017 12:23:56 GMT
As for "special lineage"...that only really applies to the Skywalkers. I mean, Obi-Wan and Yoda and Palpatine were all great Force-Users with no special lineage. I don't understand this shit of, "Disney's now made it so ANYONE can be a Jedi. Yay, diversity! Yay, girl power! Yay, individualism!!!1" That was always the case and never more so in the prequels when there were THOUSANDS OF JEDI, MALE AND FEMALE, FROM DOZENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF SPECIES. One -- ONE -- of whom happened to be Anakin Skywalker. Nothing has been changed about any of that, much less improved or "restored" by Disney. Because the OT itself was inconsistent on the idea. The first two movies made it out to be that anyone could use the Force, and the ROTJ made it seem like only certain bloodlines could do it. And people dislike the PT enough to ignore what we saw. Disney basically just shoved it in peoples' faces so hard they have to accept it again. When you have an audience as conservative as Warsies had become, you need to be that unsubtle.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Dec 26, 2017 12:30:05 GMT
I don't understand this shit of, "Disney's now made it so ANYONE can be a Jedi. Yay, diversity! Yay, girl power! Yay, individualism!!!1" That was always the case and never more so in the prequels when there were THOUSANDS OF JEDI, MALE AND FEMALE, FROM DOZENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF SPECIES. One -- ONE -- of whom happened to be Anakin Skywalker. Nothing has been changed about any of that, much less improved or "restored" by Disney. Because the OT itself was inconsistent on the idea. The first two movies made it out to be that anyone could use the Force, and the ROTJ made it seem like only certain bloodlines could do it. And people dislike the PT enough to ignore what we saw. Disney basically just shoved it in peoples' faces so hard they have to accept it again. When you have an audience as conservative as Warsies had become, you need to be that unsubtle. Jedi didn't assert anything like that. Yoda told Luke to "pass on" what he'd learned. And he didn't just mean to Leia. I'm not even doing a snarky bit about this. I legitimately don't know where the fuck everyone got this idea and why everyone (not you, these randoms) is being such a weirdly smug douche about it. Like: "NOW THE FORCE IS FOR EVERYONE!" It always was? Some people were always stronger in it than others? The bloodline helped and had narrative significance (mainly in the prequels) was never essential? None of the other Jedi are Anakin or Luke's siblings!
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Dec 26, 2017 12:36:50 GMT
I don't understand this shit of, "Disney's now made it so ANYONE can be a Jedi. Yay, diversity! Yay, girl power! Yay, individualism!!!1" That was always the case and never more so in the prequels when there were THOUSANDS OF JEDI, MALE AND FEMALE, FROM DOZENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF SPECIES. One -- ONE -- of whom happened to be Anakin Skywalker. Nothing has been changed about any of that, much less improved or "restored" by Disney. Because the OT itself was inconsistent on the idea. The first two movies made it out to be that anyone could use the Force, and the ROTJ made it seem like only certain bloodlines could do it. And people dislike the PT enough to ignore what we saw. Disney basically just shoved it in peoples' faces so hard they have to accept it again. When you have an audience as conservative as Warsies had become, you need to be that unsubtle. It's annoying that people seem to ignore what Lucas established. The Skywalker bloodline got the focus because of the story being center around them. As Colden said there's been multiple women through out the franchise who have been Jedi and there's even been multiple of poc who were also Jedi as well. The fucked up thing about Disney removing the EU from the Canon is the fact that the best female characters in the star wars lore have been replaced with Rey and Rose...yay...
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 26, 2017 12:59:44 GMT
I don't understand this shit of, "Disney's now made it so ANYONE can be a Jedi. Yay, diversity! Yay, girl power! Yay, individualism!!!1" That was always the case and never more so in the prequels when there were THOUSANDS OF JEDI, MALE AND FEMALE, FROM DOZENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF SPECIES. One -- ONE -- of whom happened to be Anakin Skywalker. Nothing has been changed about any of that, much less improved or "restored" by Disney. Because the OT itself was inconsistent on the idea. The first two movies made it out to be that anyone could use the Force, and the ROTJ made it seem like only certain bloodlines could do it. And people dislike the PT enough to ignore what we saw. Disney basically just shoved it in peoples' faces so hard they have to accept it again. When you have an audience as conservative as Warsies had become, you need to be that unsubtle. "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong." "This is not how the Force works."
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Post by formersamhmd on Dec 26, 2017 13:17:08 GMT
Because the OT itself was inconsistent on the idea. The first two movies made it out to be that anyone could use the Force, and the ROTJ made it seem like only certain bloodlines could do it. And people dislike the PT enough to ignore what we saw. Disney basically just shoved it in peoples' faces so hard they have to accept it again. When you have an audience as conservative as Warsies had become, you need to be that unsubtle. It's annoying that people seem to ignore what Lucas established. The Skywalker bloodline got the focus because of the story being center around them. As Colden said there's been multiple women through out the franchise who have been Jedi and there's even been multiple of poc who were also Jedi as well. The fucked up thing about Disney removing the EU from the Canon is the fact that the best female characters in the star wars lore have been replaced with Rey and Rose...yay... Eh, the EU had its problems.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Dec 26, 2017 13:29:34 GMT
It's annoying that people seem to ignore what Lucas established. The Skywalker bloodline got the focus because of the story being center around them. As Colden said there's been multiple women through out the franchise who have been Jedi and there's even been multiple of poc who were also Jedi as well. The fucked up thing about Disney removing the EU from the Canon is the fact that the best female characters in the star wars lore have been replaced with Rey and Rose...yay... Eh, the EU had its problems. It wasn't perfect, but it definitely had better characters and was even more progressive than what people are claiming Disney is doing.
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