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Post by phludowin on Jan 23, 2018 20:19:26 GMT
When Muslims were expelled from Spain? The Expulsion of the Moriscos (Spanish: Expulsión de los moriscos, Catalan: Expulsió dels moriscos) was decreed by King Philip III of Spain on April 9, 1609. The Moriscos were descendants of Spain's Muslim population that had converted to Christianity by coercion or by Royal Decree in the early 16th century." The Islamic time in Spain is one of complexity and lasted from the 8th to the 17th century. Please note that many Muslims converted (albeit by decree) and the irrefutable fact is now that there are negligible numbers Muslims in Spain. This is hardly a harbinger of Muslims taking over modern UK or Europe. Not to mention: What came afterwards was the Spanish Inquisition, and the extermination of large parts of the Native American population. Done by Spanish Christians.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 23, 2018 22:27:29 GMT
gozI'm being desperate and stupid? That is exactly what you did you impressive imbecile. I didn't bring up medieval history. You and PHde were trying to make some half arsed point about a failed Islamic invasion of Spain. I simply pointed out how Islam was pushed out. You wanted to use an example from history of Islam failing to take over Spain, I simply pointed out why it failed. I didn't bring it up, you clot. What is being talked about in this thread is a demographic shift driven by immigration, conversion and high birth rate. Either keep up or leave the adults to talk.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 23, 2018 22:35:51 GMT
When Muslims were expelled from Spain? The Expulsion of the Moriscos (Spanish: Expulsión de los moriscos, Catalan: Expulsió dels moriscos) was decreed by King Philip III of Spain on April 9, 1609. The Moriscos were descendants of Spain's Muslim population that had converted to Christianity by coercion or by Royal Decree in the early 16th century." The Islamic time in Spain is one of complexity and lasted from the 8th to the 17th century. Please note that many Muslims converted (albeit by decree) and the irrefutable fact is now that there are negligible numbers Muslims in Spain. This is hardly a harbinger of Muslims taking over modern UK or Europe. Not to mention: What came afterwards was the Spanish Inquisition, and the extermination of large parts of the Native American population. Done by Spanish Christians. So? That was 400 hundred years ago and Goz just said you can't use history as an argument, despite doing so herself. Its amazing the mental hoops she jumps through to justify her soft bigotry. You wanna bring up the New World? Fair enough, I'll bring up the Islamic invasion of India, around 80,000,000 dead. Which we can add to the entire deaths due to the Islamic invasions of the Middle East, Persia, Afghanistan, North Africa, Italy, Spain, France and the Balkans. What actual point do you think you are making here? Although obviously, in Progressive World, you bringing up the sins of Christianity is fine, whereas me pointing out the same sins of Islam will make me a Nazi, Islamophobic Racist or some such buzzwordy bullshit. goz. Care to explain why it is ok for him to point out the sins of Christianity but not for me to do the same about Islam? Thought not.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jan 23, 2018 22:40:34 GMT
FilmFlaneur www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/. Here is more from Pew, putting the Islamic population at 10% by 2050. Even if we drastically reduced or entirely stopped immigration.With continued high levels of immigration the figure could be as high as 17% Combine that with reports that the population at large shows only 47% of people claiming to be religious. Down 1/3 from the 80's. Amongst people under 24 the numbers of Christian is tiny, around 20% So Islam is growing and Christianity declining, meaning you could well see Islam replace Christianity by the 2080's And even if that did happen do you really think that if we ended up with a minority Islam overtaking a minority Christianity it would suddenly make much of a difference? That the majority of non-believers in the country would suddenly say "right-o, better just given the hard line muslims whatever they want now!"? So does it really matter which flavour of fairy tales a small minority believe in?
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Post by goz on Jan 23, 2018 22:43:22 GMT
goz I'm being desperate and stupid? That is exactly what you did you impressive imbecile. I didn't bring up medieval history. You and PHde were trying to make some half arsed point about a failed Islamic invasion of Spain. I simply pointed out how Islam was pushed out. You wanted to use an example from history of Islam failing to take over Spain, I simply pointed out why it failed. I didn't bring it up, you clot. What is being talked about in this thread is a demographic shift driven by immigration, conversion and high birth rate. Either keep up or leave the adults to talk. phludowin brought up the subject of how and why a former Muslim country adjacent to Great Britain had neither ended up today as a Muslim country and further that Muslims had historically not spread throughout Europe, over a thousand year period. I agreed and made poinst that you have been unable to refute, despite you fleetingly taking up a Islamophobic position on this subject by comment on taking up arms against Islam briefly, until you were reminded that it didn't add credence to your untenable position.
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Post by goz on Jan 23, 2018 22:47:09 GMT
Not to mention: What came afterwards was the Spanish Inquisition, and the extermination of large parts of the Native American population. Done by Spanish Christians. So? That was 400 hundred years ago and Goz just said you can't use history as an argument, despite doing so herself. Its amazing the mental hoops she jumps through to justify her soft bigotry. You wanna bring up the New World? Fair enough, I'll bring up the Islamic invasion of India, around 80,000,000 dead. Which we can add to the entire deaths due to the Islamic invasions of the Middle East, Persia, Afghanistan, North Africa, Italy, Spain, France and the Balkans. What actual point do you think you are making here? Although obviously, in Progressive World, you bringing up the sins of Christianity is fine, whereas me pointing out the same sins of Islam will make me a Nazi, Islamophobic Racist or some such buzzwordy bullshit. goz . Care to explain why it is ok for him to point out the sins of Christianity but not for me to do the same about Islam? Thought not. You should take that up with him, in this case. Where did I say you can't use history as an argument? AS an amateur historian I believe that we can learn much from history butt not necessarily extrapolate every detail to the modern context. This is where you are in error. In your case your bias against Islam clouds your perception and arguments.
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Post by phludowin on Jan 23, 2018 22:48:56 GMT
Not to mention: What came afterwards was the Spanish Inquisition, and the extermination of large parts of the Native American population. Done by Spanish Christians. So? That was 400 hundred years ago and Goz just said you can't use history as an argument, despite doing so herself. Its amazing the mental hoops she jumps through to justify her soft bigotry. You wanna bring up the New World? Fair enough, I'll bring up the Islamic invasion of India, around 80,000,000 dead. Which we can add to the entire deaths due to the Islamic invasions of the Middle East, Persia, Afghanistan, North Africa, Italy, Spain, France and the Balkans. What actual point do you think you are making here? Although obviously, in Progressive World, you bringing up the sins of Christianity is fine, whereas me pointing out the same sins of Islam will make me a Nazi, Islamophobic Racist or some such buzzwordy bullshit. You said this, not me. In fact, I doubt you'll find an instance on this board where I called you any of these things. My point was: Even if Islam increases: So what? They can be fought back (bad, bloodthirsty solution); or become less radicalized (more peaceful solution). Even Saudi Arabia is becoming more progressive; and if the Arab Spring turned bad, I guess it's mostly for economic reasons. By the way: In former Yugoslavia, Christians killed more people than Muslims in the last Balkan war. And that was 20 years ago, not 400.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 23, 2018 23:07:54 GMT
FilmFlaneur www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/. Here is more from Pew, putting the Islamic population at 10% by 2050. Even if we drastically reduced or entirely stopped immigration.With continued high levels of immigration the figure could be as high as 17% Combine that with reports that the population at large shows only 47% of people claiming to be religious. Down 1/3 from the 80's. Amongst people under 24 the numbers of Christian is tiny, around 20% So Islam is growing and Christianity declining, meaning you could well see Islam replace Christianity by the 2080's And even if that did happen do you really think that if we ended up with a minority Islam overtaking a minority Christianity it would suddenly make much of a difference? That the majority of non-believers in the country would suddenly say "right-o, better just given the hard line muslims whatever they want now!"? So does it really matter which flavour of fairy tales a small minority believe in? I don't know, lets look at countries with sizeable islamic minorities, such as Nigeria. Which has separate laws in the Islamic areas.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 23, 2018 23:11:33 GMT
So? That was 400 hundred years ago and Goz just said you can't use history as an argument, despite doing so herself. Its amazing the mental hoops she jumps through to justify her soft bigotry. You wanna bring up the New World? Fair enough, I'll bring up the Islamic invasion of India, around 80,000,000 dead. Which we can add to the entire deaths due to the Islamic invasions of the Middle East, Persia, Afghanistan, North Africa, Italy, Spain, France and the Balkans. What actual point do you think you are making here? Although obviously, in Progressive World, you bringing up the sins of Christianity is fine, whereas me pointing out the same sins of Islam will make me a Nazi, Islamophobic Racist or some such buzzwordy bullshit. You said this, not me. In fact, I doubt you'll find an instance on this board where I called you any of these things. My point was: Even if Islam increases: So what? They can be fought back (bad, bloodthirsty solution); or become less radicalized (more peaceful solution). Even Saudi Arabia is becoming more progressive; and if the Arab Spring turned bad, I guess it's mostly for economic reasons. By the way: In former Yugoslavia, Christians killed more people than Muslims in the last Balkan war. And that was 20 years ago, not 400. I didn't say you would, which is why I included you in the example, but true to form Goz has just done exactly what I said she would. Called me an Islamophobe and said nothing about you. What evidence do you have to suppose the Muslim populations of Europe are getting more secular? Have we or have we not seen an increase in Islamic terror attacks in the last decade by native Muslims? Are we or are we not seeing more Islamic schools? Tell us what the Jewish people think of the increase in Islam?
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Post by cupcakes on Jan 23, 2018 23:14:35 GMT
tpfkar Not to mention: What came afterwards was the Spanish Inquisition, and the extermination of large parts of the Native American population. Done by Spanish Christians. Although obviously, in Progressive World, you bringing up the sins of Christianity is fine, whereas me pointing out the same sins of Islam will make me a Nazi, Islamophobic Racist or some such buzzwordy bullshit. "Bringing up sins" is a far cry from constant handwrung hyperbole. Nobody's going on about the scourge of Christian immigration because of their Leviticus-loving arsehole-testing and government & classroom subverting veins and the bane of people being too "European". Meaning that the demographicsof the nation are shifting from British and European to African and Asian.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 23, 2018 23:15:41 GMT
So? That was 400 hundred years ago and Goz just said you can't use history as an argument, despite doing so herself. Its amazing the mental hoops she jumps through to justify her soft bigotry. You wanna bring up the New World? Fair enough, I'll bring up the Islamic invasion of India, around 80,000,000 dead. Which we can add to the entire deaths due to the Islamic invasions of the Middle East, Persia, Afghanistan, North Africa, Italy, Spain, France and the Balkans. What actual point do you think you are making here? Although obviously, in Progressive World, you bringing up the sins of Christianity is fine, whereas me pointing out the same sins of Islam will make me a Nazi, Islamophobic Racist or some such buzzwordy bullshit. goz . Care to explain why it is ok for him to point out the sins of Christianity but not for me to do the same about Islam? Thought not. You should take that up with him, in this case. Where did I say you can't use history as an argument? AS an amateur historian I believe that we can learn much from history butt not necessarily extrapolate every detail to the modern context. This is where you are in error. In your case your bias against Islam clouds your perception and arguments. I'm not in error at all. I didn't make any argument based on history. You two did. I am talking about the present and future. YOU two brought up a historical example of an Islamic invasion of Europe. Not me.I simply pointed out why it failed. You cannot look at a failed example from history and simply discount the reasons for its failure. This is like saying we should not fear the rise of the Far Right in Europe, because they failed last time. Its just bloody stupid. And why isn't PhDe a bigot and Christophobe for mentioning bad things Christianity has done? I await your reply.
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Post by phludowin on Jan 23, 2018 23:16:39 GMT
What evidence do you have to suppose the Muslim populations of Europe are getting more secular? I don't have any. Have we or have we not seen an increase in Islamic terror attacks in the last decade by native Muslims? Are we or are we not seeing more Islamic schools? As long as Muslims are marginalized, I expect that there will be radicals. As soon as they become mainstream and well off economically, I expect them to become more secular. The question is when. Tell us what the Jewish people think of the increase in Islam? I don't personally know Jewish people; at least not that I'm aware of.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jan 23, 2018 23:21:04 GMT
And even if that did happen do you really think that if we ended up with a minority Islam overtaking a minority Christianity it would suddenly make much of a difference? That the majority of non-believers in the country would suddenly say "right-o, better just given the hard line muslims whatever they want now!"? So does it really matter which flavour of fairy tales a small minority believe in? I don't know, lets look at countries with sizeable islamic minorities, such as Nigeria. Which has separate laws in the Islamic areas. Nigeria's Islamic population is nearer 50% of it's population and it's (to quote the President of the USA) a "shithole". How about Singapore? It's got about a 15% muslim population, a reasonably good economy and the rule of law. That's more comparable with what you're talking about.
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 23, 2018 23:21:34 GMT
What evidence do you have to suppose the Muslim populations of Europe are getting more secular? I don't have any. Have we or have we not seen an increase in Islamic terror attacks in the last decade by native Muslims? Are we or are we not seeing more Islamic schools? As long as Muslims are marginalized, I expect that there will be radicals. As soon as they become mainstream and well off economically, I expect them to become more secular. The question is when. Tell us what the Jewish people think of the increase in Islam? I don't personally know Jewish people; at least not that I'm aware of. But why do you expect that based on no evidence? This is what perplexes me. It strikes me as blind hope. If Muslims are continuing to come to Europe from the Islamic World, why would you expect the Islamic population to become less religiously conservative?
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Post by cupcakes on Jan 23, 2018 23:27:51 GMT
tpfkar And why isn't PhDe a bigot and Christophobe for mentioning bad things Christianity has done? I await your reply. He's not constantly losing his shyte trying to portray how bad Christians exclusively are and the dangers of immigration based on their wacked, abusive, and counter-secular tendencies and actions throughout the world and of course not bemoaning how demographics are not "British and European" enough and shifting to be too African and Asian. Canada, North Americas Sweden
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Post by phludowin on Jan 23, 2018 23:32:38 GMT
I don't have any. As long as Muslims are marginalized, I expect that there will be radicals. As soon as they become mainstream and well off economically, I expect them to become more secular. The question is when. I don't personally know Jewish people; at least not that I'm aware of. But why do you expect that based on no evidence? This is what perplexes me. It strikes me as blind hope. If Muslims are continuing to come to Europe from the Islamic World, why would you expect the Islamic population to become less religiously conservative? Because it has happened every time in history, when a population that was once a minority became mainstream. They eventually became more liberal, enlightened, progressive and individualistic. The key is economic wealth. It may take centuries to happen; but that's not for me to worry.
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Post by cupcakes on Jan 24, 2018 1:52:57 GMT
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 24, 2018 12:01:05 GMT
FilmFlaneur www.pewforum.org/2017/11/29/europes-growing-muslim-population/. Here is more from Pew, putting the Islamic population at 10% by 2050. Even if we drastically reduced or entirely stopped immigration.With continued high levels of immigration the figure could be as high as 17% Combine that with reports that the population at large shows only 47% of people claiming to be religious. Down 1/3 from the 80's. Amongst people under 24 the numbers of Christian is tiny, around 20% So Islam is growing and Christianity declining, meaning you could well see Islam replace Christianity by the 2080's And even if that did happen do you really think that if we ended up with a minority Islam overtaking a minority Christianity it would suddenly make much of a difference? That the majority of non-believers in the country would suddenly say "right-o, better just given the hard line muslims whatever they want now!"? So does it really matter which flavour of fairy tales a small minority believe in?
It only matters (in the sense that it evokes fear, dread, and hate towards the 'other' generally, and usually minorities in particular) to Islamophobes and racists. If I was to suggest here, in negative fashion, that it is only matter of time before Jewish people and their culture might 'take over' and 'replace our values with theirs', or that England will be 'mongrelized' by mixed marriages with the reprehensible growth of the black urban population etc etc, the outraged reply ought to be the same. Such fears by nationalists and the socially conservative have always been seen down the years, while the final results are never pleasant. The fact is that population growth of any group is never consistent over the years, with inevitable troughs and peaks for various reasons, which makes Thor's usual hyperbolic claims (from 8% of the head count to taking over the country? Really??) about things 60 years hence highly dubious - even if we accept an increasingly mixed society as being a necessarily bad thing in the first place. At least he has had the sense to qualify his predications somewhat now since the bald sensationalism at the beginning of this thread.
In regards to how secular Muslims are, or are not , btw it is worth remembering that 14 Muslim majority countries are officially secular in the World:
•Albania •Azerbaijan •Burkina Faso •Chad •Guinea •Kazakhstan •Kosovo •Kyrgyzstan •Mali •Senegal •Tajikistan •Turkmenistan •Turkey (although there is trouble here) •Uzbekistan.
It is also reasonable to argue that just as the attitude to religion by erstwhile Muslims can vary from population to population (ie we all agree that not all Muslims are radical fundamentalists while alternatively, at the other end of things, where a Muslim society severely sanctions apostasy etc, could just go through the motions for an easy life ), then secularism may just be hidden below the surface. To say that all or most Muslims stand against secularism, or reject it, let alone will inevitably be fundamental and insistent enough to taker over a western democracy, is to use the narrative and claims of the most fervent followers of the religion and their ideas of a monolithic Islamic state. It also ignores the role in the west of Islamic Modernism, which typically reconciles Islamic faith with modern Western values such as nationalism, democracy, civil rights, rationality, equality, and progress.
"The post-independent period witnessed the emergence of modern Muslim states whose pattern of development was heavily influenced by and indebted to Western secular paradigms or models. Saudi Arabia and Turkey reflected the two polar positions. [...] The majority of Muslim states chose a middle ground in nation building, borrowing heavily from the West and relying on foreign advisers and Western-educated elites" (John L. Esposito, a professor of international affairs and Islamic studies), Islam and Secularism in the Middle East, 2000.
Quoted from a useful article which can be found here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism
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Post by goz on Jan 24, 2018 19:50:42 GMT
You should take that up with him, in this case. Where did I say you can't use history as an argument? AS an amateur historian I believe that we can learn much from history butt not necessarily extrapolate every detail to the modern context. This is where you are in error. In your case your bias against Islam clouds your perception and arguments. I'm not in error at all. I didn't make any argument based on history. You two did. I am talking about the present and future. YOU two brought up a historical example of an Islamic invasion of Europe. Not me.I simply pointed out why it failed. You cannot look at a failed example from history and simply discount the reasons for its failure. This is like saying we should not fear the rise of the Far Right in Europe, because they failed last time. Its just bloody stupid. And why isn't PhDe a bigot and Christophobe for mentioning bad things Christianity has done? I await your reply. 'He's not constantly losing his shyte trying to portray how bad Christians exclusively are and the dangers of immigration based on their wacked, abusive, and counter-secular tendencies and actions throughout the world and of course not bemoaning how demographics are not "British and European" enough and shifting to be too African and Asian.'
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Post by thorshairspray on Jan 24, 2018 21:37:34 GMT
I'm not in error at all. I didn't make any argument based on history. You two did. I am talking about the present and future. YOU two brought up a historical example of an Islamic invasion of Europe. Not me.I simply pointed out why it failed. You cannot look at a failed example from history and simply discount the reasons for its failure. This is like saying we should not fear the rise of the Far Right in Europe, because they failed last time. Its just bloody stupid. And why isn't PhDe a bigot and Christophobe for mentioning bad things Christianity has done? I await your reply. 'He's not constantly losing his shyte trying to portray how bad Christians exclusively are and the dangers of immigration based on their wacked, abusive, and counter-secular tendencies and actions throughout the world and of course not bemoaning how demographics are not "British and European" enough and shifting to be too African and Asian.' 1) You have made more threads attacking Christianity than I have attacking Islam. Fact. 2) You bring up a single example from this thread where we were talking about immigration. I said the demographic was shifting from European to African and Asian. This is also a fact. 3) Where or when have I ever said Muslims are exclusively bad? Thats simply a lie. I have said and will continue to say Islam is fucking awful. Islam isn't Muslims. So I'll ask again. Why am I a Nazi for disliking Islam, but you aren't for disliking Christianity?
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