|
|
Post by theoncomingstorm on Jan 29, 2018 23:16:28 GMT
I was not prepared for a thread where Goz is making sense as well as making an important and valid point. But important accomplishments deserve recognition, so well done Goz. But good luck 'splaining it to people who still deny white privilege, male privilege, rape culture or anything else that threatens to burst their protective bubble.
|
|
|
|
Post by thorshairspray on Jan 29, 2018 23:20:15 GMT
Yes, happens all the time. A woman asks a question and the guy doesn't talk to her, but to a random man. Nobody noticed until this thread though..
|
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 29, 2018 23:25:24 GMT
I was not prepared for a thread where Goz is making sense as well as making an important and valid point. But important accomplishments deserve recognition, so well done Goz. But good luck 'splaining it to people who still deny white privilege, male privilege, rape culture or anything else that threatens to burst their protective bubble. ...and thankyou for 'damning with faint praise'! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 23:45:21 GMT
where they do get this shit from ?
|
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 30, 2018 0:05:08 GMT
No, I mean the usage of the word mansplaining, when we both agree that both genders do it. Simply having a word that targets one gender specifically is sexist, and I can tell you from experience that the word mansplaining has been used to dismiss an explanation of something made by a man that the user did not understands. You mean as opposed to words like 'gossip' and 'bitching' 'hen's talk' 'nattering' 'whoring' 'cowing' 'harlotting' 'tarting''squealing''tramping' which are overwhelmingly aimed at women in a denigrating manner? No I mean in addition to. Let's be clear, all I oppose is fighting sexism with sexism, I also oppose people talking down to women and explaining simple things to them, they are all part and parcel of the same thing, inherent misbalance of power. I just don't think the way to address that misbalance is to impose a new lack of balance. |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 30, 2018 0:10:10 GMT
You mean as opposed to words like 'gossip' and 'bitching' 'hen's talk' 'nattering' 'whoring' 'cowing' 'harlotting' 'tarting''squealing''tramping' which are overwhelmingly aimed at women in a denigrating manner? No I mean in addition to. Let's be clear, all I oppose is fighting sexism with sexism, I also oppose people talking down to women and explaining simple things to them, they are all part and parcel of the same thing, inherent misbalance of power. I just don't think the way to address that misbalance is to impose a new lack of balance. So you think that the pendulum has swung too far the way? Seriously? Women having more power over men? |
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 30, 2018 0:17:48 GMT
No I mean in addition to. Let's be clear, all I oppose is fighting sexism with sexism, I also oppose people talking down to women and explaining simple things to them, they are all part and parcel of the same thing, inherent misbalance of power. I just don't think the way to address that misbalance is to impose a new lack of balance. So you think that the pendulum has swung too far the way? Seriously? Women having more power over men? again not what I said. Lets put it another way, in the 60's in the states there were whites only facilities, do you think having blacks only facilities would have made the situation better or worse? |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 30, 2018 0:21:54 GMT
So you think that the pendulum has swung too far the way? Seriously? Women having more power over men? again not what I said. Lets put it another way, in the 60's in the states there were whites only facilities, do you think having blacks only facilities would have made the situation better or worse? With respect, that is really not a good example as in effect there WERE black only facilities. ( or NON whites as they referred to it in SA ie the rest ) You are basically saying that NOW, you don't like the treatment that has been handed out to women for millennia. So when it happens to men it is somehow different. Suck it up Princess!  |
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 30, 2018 0:26:38 GMT
again not what I said. Lets put it another way, in the 60's in the states there were whites only facilities, do you think having blacks only facilities would have made the situation better or worse? With respect, that is really not a good example as in effect there WERE black only facilities. ( or NON whites as they referred to it in SA ie the rest ) You are basically saying that NOW, you don't like the treatment that has been handed out to women for millennia. So when it happens to men it is somehow different. Suck it up Princess! I rest my case. You think my stance is that it can happen to women but it cannot happen to men, to which your response is for me to suck up being treated like shit because of my gender. But actually my stance is it should happen to no one. |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 30, 2018 0:31:58 GMT
With respect, that is really not a good example as in effect there WERE black only facilities. ( or NON whites as they referred to it in SA ie the rest ) You are basically saying that NOW, you don't like the treatment that has been handed out to women for millennia. So when it happens to men it is somehow different. Suck it up Princess! I rest my case. You think my stance is that it can happen to women but it cannot happen to men, to which your response is for me to suck up being treated like shit because of my gender. But actually my stance is it should happen to no one. We agree then, that it should happen to no-one, however it is STILL happening to women and men like you whinge about it when it is pointed out. You are using your poor me male gender to point this out by saying you don't like the words mansplaining and mansayer, which are new made up words to make this point when all those other words I used have been around for generations. |
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 30, 2018 0:44:50 GMT
I rest my case. You think my stance is that it can happen to women but it cannot happen to men, to which your response is for me to suck up being treated like shit because of my gender. But actually my stance is it should happen to no one. We agree then, that it should happen to no-one, however it is STILL happening to women and men like you whinge about it when it is pointed out. You are using your poor me male gender to point this out by saying you don't like the words mansplaining and mansayer, which are new made up words to make this point when all those other words I used have been around for generations. Lets be very very clear, I do not whinge when sexism is pointed out, calling the actions out is very important in my mind, my issue is the creation of two sexist words to describe the behaviour. Interestingly your responses seem to be in favour of using these words and if a couple of soft men get their little emotions hurt in the process who cares? Which is exactly the attitude I am talking about, you don't fix a wrong by perpetrating the wrong back on the offender. |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 30, 2018 1:13:05 GMT
We agree then, that it should happen to no-one, however it is STILL happening to women and men like you whinge about it when it is pointed out. You are using your poor me male gender to point this out by saying you don't like the words mansplaining and mansayer, which are new made up words to make this point when all those other words I used have been around for generations. Lets be very very clear, I do not whinge when sexism is pointed out, calling the actions out is very important in my mind, my issue is the creation of two sexist words to describe the behaviour. Interestingly your responses seem to be in favour of using these words and if a couple of soft men get their little emotions hurt in the process who cares? Which is exactly the attitude I am talking about, you don't fix a wrong by perpetrating the wrong back on the offender. I love language and I love how it morphs and people make up new words all the time. It is joyous (especially if there is a level of humour in there.) Whilst I am a stickler for some standards for grammar usage spelling etc I also welcome new and effective means of communication. The very fact that you are a man and you don't like it, means that it has been very successful. It is a fact that men have been aware of this for generations, yet they have ignored what they are doing or unaware of it. These words are effective conscious level raisers. |
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 30, 2018 1:16:08 GMT
Lets be very very clear, I do not whinge when sexism is pointed out, calling the actions out is very important in my mind, my issue is the creation of two sexist words to describe the behaviour. Interestingly your responses seem to be in favour of using these words and if a couple of soft men get their little emotions hurt in the process who cares? Which is exactly the attitude I am talking about, you don't fix a wrong by perpetrating the wrong back on the offender. I love language and I love how it morphs and people make up new words all the time. It is joyous (especially if there is a level of humour in there.) Whilst I am a stickler for some standards for grammar usage spelling etc I also welcome new and effective means of communication. The very fact that you are a man and you don't like it, means that it has been very successful. It is a fact that men have been aware of this for generations, yet they have ignored what they are doing or unaware of it. These words are effective conscious level raisers. So is burning people at the stake, does not make it the best way. The very fact that I am a man and I don't like it does not make is successful because it has not changed my behaviour, moreover the people who it is aimed at are unlikely to change their behaviour either. I don't think this is successful as anything other than just another meme. |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 30, 2018 1:23:31 GMT
I love language and I love how it morphs and people make up new words all the time. It is joyous (especially if there is a level of humour in there.) Whilst I am a stickler for some standards for grammar usage spelling etc I also welcome new and effective means of communication. The very fact that you are a man and you don't like it, means that it has been very successful. It is a fact that men have been aware of this for generations, yet they have ignored what they are doing or unaware of it. These words are effective conscious level raisers. So is burning people at the stake, does not make it the best way. The very fact that I am a man and I don't like it does not make is successful because it has not changed my behaviour, moreover the people who it is aimed at are unlikely to change their behaviour either. I don't think this is successful as anything other than just another meme. Raising awareness of problems in society is a very effective way of instituting change. YOU personally may not exhibit this behaviour butt you may well become aware of it in others and occasionally in yourself.. It is win/win. Like that woman in the article who walked out of an auction...that auctioneer may think again before ignoring a woman bidder, and the man who didn't get the job because he totally ignored the female members of the panel, upon reading or talking about this with his mates, may become conscious of his own behaviour, though often those people are so obtuse they will blame others ( especially the women involved). |
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 30, 2018 1:26:18 GMT
So is burning people at the stake, does not make it the best way. The very fact that I am a man and I don't like it does not make is successful because it has not changed my behaviour, moreover the people who it is aimed at are unlikely to change their behaviour either. I don't think this is successful as anything other than just another meme. Raising awareness of problems in society is a very effective way of instituting change. YOU personally may not exhibit this behaviour butt you may well become aware of it in others and occasionally in yourself.. It is win/win. Like that woman in the article who walked out of an auction...that auctioneer may think again before ignoring a woman bidder, and the man who didn't get the job because he totally ignored the female members of the panel, upon reading or talking about this with his mates, may become conscious of his own behaviour, though often those people are so obtuse they will blame others ( especially the women involved). I agree 100% with your statement, and in neither of those examples was a derogatory word required to get the point across, the real situation was met with real consequences, that is the way that change is fostered, not through some word that denigrates a whole section of society. |
|
|
|
Post by thorshairspray on Jan 30, 2018 1:41:39 GMT
Raising awareness of problems in society is a very effective way of instituting change. YOU personally may not exhibit this behaviour butt you may well become aware of it in others and occasionally in yourself.. It is win/win. Like that woman in the article who walked out of an auction...that auctioneer may think again before ignoring a woman bidder, and the man who didn't get the job because he totally ignored the female members of the panel, upon reading or talking about this with his mates, may become conscious of his own behaviour, though often those people are so obtuse they will blame others ( especially the women involved). I agree 100% with your statement, and in neither of those examples was a derogatory word required to get the point across, the real situation was met with real consequences, that is the way that change is fostered, not through some word that denigrates a whole section of society. IT isn't a gender issue. Assertive people will interrupt more. Arrogant people and rude people will talk down to others. The people that do this do it to everyone, regardless of gender. I can accept men are more guilty, the person who serially interrupts would just as happily do it to me as they would Goz. Women are more likely to engage in controlling behaviour. Is it then fair to refer to this kind of abuse as Femtrolling? Women are more likely to commit infanticide, should we call this crime Femkilling? |
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 30, 2018 1:51:32 GMT
I agree 100% with your statement, and in neither of those examples was a derogatory word required to get the point across, the real situation was met with real consequences, that is the way that change is fostered, not through some word that denigrates a whole section of society. IT isn't a gender issue. Assertive people will interrupt more. Arrogant people and rude people will talk down to others. The people that do this do it to everyone, regardless of gender. I can accept men are more guilty, the person who serially interrupts would just as happily do it to me as they would Goz. Women are more likely to engage in controlling behaviour. Is it then fair to refer to this kind of abuse as Femtrolling? Women are more likely to commit infanticide, should we call this crime Femkilling? I struggle to understand why you are quoting me. |
|
|
|
Post by thorshairspray on Jan 30, 2018 2:05:15 GMT
IT isn't a gender issue. Assertive people will interrupt more. Arrogant people and rude people will talk down to others. The people that do this do it to everyone, regardless of gender. I can accept men are more guilty, the person who serially interrupts would just as happily do it to me as they would Goz. Women are more likely to engage in controlling behaviour. Is it then fair to refer to this kind of abuse as Femtrolling? Women are more likely to commit infanticide, should we call this crime Femkilling? I struggle to understand why you are quoting me. Sorry dude, replied to the wrong person. |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 30, 2018 2:06:31 GMT
Raising awareness of problems in society is a very effective way of instituting change. YOU personally may not exhibit this behaviour butt you may well become aware of it in others and occasionally in yourself.. It is win/win. Like that woman in the article who walked out of an auction...that auctioneer may think again before ignoring a woman bidder, and the man who didn't get the job because he totally ignored the female members of the panel, upon reading or talking about this with his mates, may become conscious of his own behaviour, though often those people are so obtuse they will blame others ( especially the women involved). I agree 100% with your statement, and in neither of those examples was a derogatory word required to get the point across, the real situation was met with real consequences, that is the way that change is fostered, not through some word that denigrates a whole section of society. The words raise awareness in the press and popular culture more quickly and effectively than waiting for every misogynistic sod to screw up by being rude to all the womenfolk they come in contact with! |
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Jan 30, 2018 2:08:56 GMT
I agree 100% with your statement, and in neither of those examples was a derogatory word required to get the point across, the real situation was met with real consequences, that is the way that change is fostered, not through some word that denigrates a whole section of society. The words raise awareness in the press and popular culture more quickly and effectively than waiting for every misogynistic sod to screw up by being rude to all the womenfolk they come in contact with! And they (maybe, although I see a lot of backlash about it from otherwise perfectly egalatarian men) may raise awareness, or they may be treated as nonsense and ignored, but even if they achieve everything you want, was it really the way you wanted to do it? especially as, in your example, a far better point can be made without the words. |
|
