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Post by mslo79 on Feb 6, 2018 8:36:39 GMT
when you cut through the BS it boils down to this... abortion is legalized murder of the unborn basically. it's a evil act plain and simple. abortion clearly violates the 6th commandment... 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. abortion has always been condemned by the Catholic church (which is the church Jesus Christ started), which is basically the moral guide of the world, and for good reason. what I said above is the truth, but many nowadays just don't want to hear it. p.s. that's one of the major reasons why liberals are backwards as they can't even get a basic life issue correct as what they are doing is putting a persons "choice" higher than a persons right to life when it should be the other way around. it's just not a good idea to make it easier for people to kill their own child through abortion but yet that's basically what democrats do. a bit of a red flag if you ask me. so if they can't even get that basic life issue correct it's not surprising they are backwards in many other moral areas. CatmanBut I can pretty much guarantee you that Christianity has had a effect on general standards here in the USA for quite a long time but lately people are drifting away from those standards and as a result society is on the decline because of it.
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Post by dividavi on Feb 6, 2018 9:25:38 GMT
when you cut through the BS it boils down to this... abortion is legalized murder of the unborn basically. it's a evil act plain and simple. No, it's the excision of an unwanted growth that has no functioning brain and therefore has no volition, consciousness, mind - what you call a soul. What do you care what the Ten Commandments say about anything. Your Catholic Church deleted the commandment about not bowing down to graven images. You church has no credibility after that stunt and neither do you. Not always and here's what wikipedia says: Following Aristotle's view, it was commonly held by some "leading Catholic thinkers" in early Church history that a human being did not come into existence as such immediately on conception, but only some weeks later. Abortion was viewed as a sin, but not as murder, until the embryo was animated by a human soul.[24] In On Virginal Conception and Original Sin 7, Anselm of Canterbury (1033–1109) said that "no human intellect accepts the view that an infant has the rational soul from the moment of conception."[16] A few decades after Anselm's death, a Catholic collection of canon law, in the Decretum Gratiani, stated that "he is not a murderer who brings about abortion before the soul is in the body."[16]
Even when Church law, in line with the theory of delayed ensoulment, assigned different penalties to earlier and later abortions, abortion at any stage was considered a grave evil.[25] Thus Thomas Aquinas, who accepted the Aristotelian theory that a human soul was infused only after 40 days for a male fetus, 90 days for a female, saw abortion of an unsouled fetus as always unethical,[26] a serious crime,[27] a grave sin, a misdeed and contrary to nature.By the way, you seem to be unaware of the Orthodox Church, the Coptic Church and the Armenian Apostolic Church. They can make the same claim about originality that the RCC likes to claim. There's nothing moral about any religion that casually condemns non-believers to Hell in the way your RCC does. Nope, people do what they want and later conjure up religious excuses for their actions.
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Post by mslo79 on Feb 6, 2018 10:18:28 GMT
dividavi That 'unwanted growth' is a human being. so a beating heart does not qualify as life? ; because I think there is a beating heart at about 8 weeks into pregnancy but yet I think it's still legal to get a abortion. if a beating heart does not qualify as life, then I don't know what does. the Catholic church clearly states that life begins at conception. so any interference with that process is clearly immoral. This should help clear up this issue... www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/catholic-doctrines-and-practices/graven-images-altering-the-commandmentsthey have the whole truth about Christianity simply because it's the church Jesus Christ started and it's THE church He guides. it's really this simple. "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." - Matthew 16:18 It has always condemned abortion... www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/church-has-always-condemned-abortion.htmlI don't think they can as you can trace the Popes back to Peter in the Catholic church... www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htmalso, the Orthodox church split from the Catholic church in I think 1054. No one ends up in hell after they die unless they are in a state of mortal sin. if your not, you cannot end up in hell. as for who is in a state of mortal sin... I suspect that's something only God knows. this should be a decent article on the general subject... www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/do-non-catholics-go-to-hell ; so while it might not technically be absolutely required to remain within the Catholic church for your salvation it's unwise to leave it because your chances are higher of reaching heaven staying within it. I think I can safely say that much. That's the problem... people doing what they want instead of trying to live by what the Catholic church teaches on morals etc.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 6, 2018 10:54:40 GMT
That's the problem... people doing what they want instead of trying to live by what the Catholic church teaches on morals etc. The Catholic church does not have a monopoly on morals. Nor of religion either.
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Post by mslo79 on Feb 6, 2018 11:22:38 GMT
FilmFlaneur Well it is pretty safe for me to say it's the moral guide of the world. but many don't like it because what it teaches people won't always like. but the truth is the truth and you cannot alter the truth to suit mans fallen nature. because once people ignore that and start making up their own standards, things tend to get a little worse here and there as the years pass and before you know it, things are pretty bankrupt morally etc. basically since the fall of Adam/Eve people no longer see things how they truly are and are inclined towards sinful things and that's where the church comes into play to tell is what's right and wrong from a moral standpoint etc. but since we all have free will we can choose to accept or reject it's teachings. also, the Catholic church might not be the only religion out there but the Catholic church is the one backed by God (i.e. The Holy Trinity(Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit))... "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." - Matthew 16:18 and to be clear... Peter was the first pope of the Catholic church and it went down threw the generations til today as you can see the list of popes here... www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htmToasted Cheese Sure, if the mothers life is in danger because of the pregnancy then at that point a abortion is done not to end the babies life but to save the mothers. but just to get a abortion done for convenience sake (and the like) is just wrong. human life must be respected and not just treated like it can be done away with because it may inconvenience some people. the persons choice came when they choose to have sex and having a baby is always a potential consequence of that action. but some apparently want to take the easy way out by killing their own baby through abortion. I hear many regret their choice to have a abortion to. Well us "religious nut-jobs" are not the ones supporting a immoral issue like abortion. making it easier for a person to end a babies life through abortion cannot possibly be a moral good. naturally, the opposite of that is the moral choice. I mean just look at how each polticial party describes the abortion issue... "pro-life" vs "pro-choice". it's pretty easy to see one sugar coats a bad thing(pro-choice) where as the other one (pro-life) is exactly as it's described.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 11:40:32 GMT
I don;t need belief or the law to tell me how disgusting a practice abortion is. All I have to do is make sure I don;t involve myself in it. BOOM! Sleeping well at night... I don't need religion or the law to tell me how disgusting a practice your beliefs are. All you have to do is make sure you don't stick your nose into other people's personal business where abortion is concerned. BOOM! Mental illness can be helped with medication at night... My beliefs are fine. Since I know what your view is on kiddie rapists, I'm not exactly concerned about your views on my views on abortion since it's likely based on a warped perspective.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Feb 6, 2018 11:46:39 GMT
FilmFlaneur FF: The Catholic church does not have a monopoly on morals. Nor of religion either. MS: Well it is pretty safe for me to say it's the moral guide of the world. but many don't like it because what it teaches people won't always like.
Its representatives don't always do what people would like, either. For instance abusing children and then covering up the aftermath, often for decades.
Matt 23:27" Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28I n the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness..."
Or its reprehensible view on condoms when a 2007 poll found that the majority of Catholics in five countries agreed that “using condoms is pro-life because it helps save lives by preventing the spread of HIV.” The condoms still actively frowned upon - even though Pope Benedict XVI in 2010 said that using condoms to prevent the spread of HIV can be “a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality.”
Which may be so, but religions have been arguing between and within each other for millennia over who actually possesses it. You know that not everything in the Bible is to be taken as literally true - right? In the case of the Catholic church, abhorring what was going on, many did, a few hundred years ago, starting with Luther, but thanks for the offer anyway. It is not backed by Allah though ... Vishnu, Amon-Ra or Cthulhu either, come to that.
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Post by mslo79 on Feb 6, 2018 11:57:35 GMT
Toasted Cheesealso technically true, but the ones who don't regret it and do it here and there (of which there are some people) pretty much have no conscience and are likely pretty bankrupt morally. thank God for the ones that regret their abortion as they still got a working conscience. if they knew what they where doing, they would not be doing it. those that don't repent from that evil act, they got a big surprise when they pass from this life into the next. Don't you think the baby has a right to life? ; people always talk about rights for humans etc but what about a babies right to life? We (basically conservatives) believe abortion is a evil act(i.e. legalized murder of innocent babies), so naturally, there will be people against it because of that alone as in any civilized society murder is wrong. people like Kermit Gosnell just show you how someone conscience is pretty much shot who takes part in abortions like it's nothing etc. But it does. because God is the Creator and He's the ultimate authority on right and wrong. violate His laws (especially serious issues like abortion etc) and you could potentially pay a serious consequence for those actions, if not in this life, then the next. but since you don't believe in God, it will be much easier for you to think abortion is no big deal because for someone who does not believe in God, life becomes of much less value to them, because if they have the mindset that this life is all their is(i.e. you die here on earth and you cease to exist), then basically our choices and general life here is mostly meaningless etc.
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Post by dividavi on Feb 6, 2018 12:20:49 GMT
dividavi That 'unwanted growth' is a human being. so a beating heart does not qualify as life? ; because I think there is a beating heart at about 8 weeks into pregnancy but yet I think it's still legal to get a abortion. if a beating heart does not qualify as life, then I don't know what does. I'll tell you what does: a functioning brain/nervous system. Without that there's no mind, no soul, nobody at home. A freshly fertilized human egg has the same mental capacity as a living dandelion or a living amoeba: none whatsoever. We are discussing human fertilized eggs, not horse or dog embryos which are just as mentally aware. So why did you introduce that heartbeat crap since you believe that a human soul gets implanted weeks earlier, like a few minutes after ejaculation? And no, there's nothing wrong with interfering with the process. there are all kinds of medical techniques that increase the probability of a successful pregnancy, none of which are natural and all of which are an interference. For instance there's no in vitro fertilization in nature. By your reasoning, or rather by what you just said, that's an interference and that's clearly immoral. So how can you resolve this discrepancy? You can talk more shit and give more stupid apologetic sites that say nothing. That's how. The commandment about worshiping idols is deliberately omitted and bullshit from some confusing apologetic source doesn't change that. I quoted RCC church scholars who said otherwise.
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Post by mslo79 on Feb 6, 2018 12:47:23 GMT
FilmFlaneurDon't let the actions of a few bad apples remove you from the true Faith so to be clear... people inside the church are not perfect as they are still sinners like everyone else, as there is still a possibility they can end up in hell, but when it comes to it's official teachings on morals and faith, it's infallible. but official church teaching goes against condoms and general artificial contraception, it always has and always will. so while there appear to be "good" reasons for people to use them. they are basically immoral in a basic sense. also, the truth is not a democracy either so it does not matter what I, as a Catholic, or any other lay person thinks on the contraception matter. it's still a sin. even if 99%+ of the general public thought condoms where okay, the church would still condemn them. with that said... I know that many will disagree with it simply because it causes people a inconvenience and people want their pleasure without having to worry about having kids etc. but like I was saying, people can either accept the Catholic church's truth on the matter or reject it and do whatever they want as God won't force people to obey Him as we all have free will. so just in my opinion... it does not 'seem' like condoms would be a big deal but I know that the church is not wrong on it's decision on that matter either. the use of them is a sin whether it seems like it or not and that even still applies to people who are legitimately married through the church to. basically if you want to hold off on kids it appears your only options are to refrain from having sex or 'natural family planning' if your going to stick within church teachings. here is a more detailed article on the whole contraception thing and why the Church condemns it... www.catholic.com/tract/birth-controlp.s. I suspect that's one thing a lot of people ignore and use condoms (and other artificial contraception) anyways. Yep and that argument will continue being people are people. even if we assumed The Holy Trinity is the true God... God is just so He won't penalize someone who, through no fault of their own, does not become aware of Him etc. Yes, that's true. I don't know all of the details but I do know this... www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htmin there is official church teachings (i.e. the Catechism of the Catholic church) on the fall of Adam/Eve and basically says this... Yeah, but there is only one God which is The Holy Trinity. basically you got physical existence (i.e. universe) and the the other side which is the spiritual world which basically contains Heaven (with God and His angels etc etc) and then the opposite of that with hell (with satan/demons(fallen angels)) and that's pretty much it. well, there is Purgatory to but this is only temporary as anyone who lands here (which I suspect will be a lot of people) is guaranteed Heaven eventually. our choices in this life ultimately determine where we end up when we get to the other side. choose wisely
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Post by mslo79 on Feb 6, 2018 13:19:11 GMT
Toasted Cheese Keep in mind I am just giving examples. I obviously don't know the persons heart in details etc like God does. but with that said... it's still pretty safe for me to say some people are morally bankrupt. so it's not a stretch of reasoning for me to say that some of those who get multiple abortions are pretty much morally bankrupt, at least on some level, as it's a serious issue we are talking about here not just some petty thing. also, it should be pretty obvious that someone who gets multiple abortions does not regret it otherwise they would have stopped after the first one. also, calling out a wrong for what it is does not make me a 'bad Christian' or judge mental etc. abortion is morally wrong, that's the truth whether you believe it or not and I simply stated this. correcting a wrong is a good thing, not a bad thing. to let someone continue in sin and not say anything, now that's a bad thing. with that said... there is still forgiveness within the Catholic church for those who had a abortion and want to change their ways etc. p.s. I am in no way perfect as we all sin on some level. but abortion is one of those lines you do not want to cross. dividaviBecause maybe that would connect with you a bit more is why I mentioned the heartbeat thing since it's more obviously life to the common person then just a 'life begins at conception' comment. The church is also against IVF, I am pretty sure of that. believe what you want but it's pretty safe to say they know more about right and wrong then the common person does. to think otherwise is likely some form of pride/arrogance. But your source was wikipedia. I am sure some places online twist things. I would be careful on your source for some things. Yeah, that is official Church teachings, so it's a good source. #847 also has some exceptions there as you posted them... basically... your chances of getting to heaven are much better if your within the church than outside of it. but technically it's still possible to get to heaven outside of the church, just not wise to do that though. Trust me, Catholics don't worship statues etc. also, just because something is complex/confusing does not make it untrue. hell, I am sure there is PLENTY in the church, that while still true, is a bit beyond me. I just accept it because I know the church would not make a major error on these things. certainly there has to be some authority on such matters otherwise if it was left up for anyone to interpret things however they see fit then you would have multiple ways of translating key things. that's why the Catholic church is there by Jesus Christ as it's the authority on faith/moral issues as it translates serious matters correctly.
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Post by kls on Feb 6, 2018 13:24:15 GMT
For those who believe life begins at conception is it a death if a fertilized egg fails to implant in the uterus and develop? If there is a miscarriage before the potential mother is even aware of the pregnancy (or never even realizes it happened)?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 13:33:11 GMT
If they believe life begins at conception, then by default any loss of a fertilized egg would be death wouldn't it?
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Post by Vegas on Feb 6, 2018 13:37:05 GMT
For those who believe life begins at conception is it a death if a fertilized egg fails to implant in the uterus and develop? If there is a miscarriage before the potential mother is even aware of the pregnancy (or never even realizes it happened)? For those that hold that view: Probably. Fish shoot out hundreds/thousands of fertilized eggs with the inherent expectation that most of them will be eaten.. but leaving enough alive to keep propagating the species. For them: The fact that most get eaten doesn't make the ones that survive fish... They are all fish to begin with.
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Post by kls on Feb 6, 2018 13:41:06 GMT
For those who believe life begins at conception is it a death if a fertilized egg fails to implant in the uterus and develop? If there is a miscarriage before the potential mother is even aware of the pregnancy (or never even realizes it happened)? For those that hold that view: Probably. Fish shoot out hundreds/thousands of fertilized eggs with the inherent expectation that most of them will be eaten.. but leaving enough alive to keep propagating the species. For them: The fact that most get eaten doesn't make the ones that survive fish... They are all fish to begin with. Kind of would make their definition of human life expectancy much lower than the typical average thrown out.
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Post by Vegas on Feb 6, 2018 13:42:02 GMT
For those that hold that view: Probably. Fish shoot out hundreds/thousands of fertilized eggs with the inherent expectation that most of them will be eaten.. but leaving enough alive to keep propagating the species. For them: The fact that most get eaten doesn't make the ones that survive fish... They are all fish to begin with. Kind of would make their definition of human life expectancy much lower than the typical average thrown out. Tru Dat.
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Post by Isapop on Feb 6, 2018 13:42:06 GMT
Can't morality have some intellectual grounding? No, it can't have any intellectual grounding, because no foundational moral claim is implied by anything else, and no facts imply any moral claims (you can't get oughts from is's). It's inherently "emotional" so to speak. It's inherently simply how one feels about the idea of one behavior versus another possible behavior. I want to pursue this a little further. I'm wondering if you and I are talking about the same thing when we say "morality". What I mean by morality is abiding by a social contract. Social contracts are necessary for any community, no matter how small, to survive. I don't want to be the victim of murder or theft, so the contract requires me not to also victimize others. That, to me, is an intellectual grounding to not act immorally (violate the social contract).
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 13:52:47 GMT
Nature makes a pretty simple determination.
If you boink, it is with the expectation of getting pregnant. What the intentions of the people boinking are completely irrelevant to the biological urge.
Humans are probably the only creatures that get surprised when boinking leads to pregnancy (Derp- How did that happen?!?!?!).
That is the default state of things which is at a minimum why you can find a connect in Scripture although something so obvious shouldn't need a book.
To think that abortion is some kind of champion for the human race (Derp- Population control...) and women in particular It makes them powerful!) is a ludicrous concept that people have latched onto because selfish desire or calming irrational fears are more important than parental bonds for many.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Feb 6, 2018 14:07:02 GMT
when you cut through the BS it boils down to this... abortion is legalized murder of the unborn basically. it's a evil act plain and simple. abortion clearly violates the 6th commandment... 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. abortion has always been condemned by the Catholic church (which is the church Jesus Christ started), which is basically the moral guide of the world, and for good reason. what I said above is the truth, but many nowadays just don't want to hear it. p.s. that's one of the major reasons why liberals are backwards as they can't even get a basic life issue correct as what they are doing is putting a persons "choice" higher than a persons right to life when it should be the other way around. it's just not a good idea to make it easier for people to kill their own child through abortion but yet that's basically what democrats do. a bit of a red flag if you ask me. so if they can't even get that basic life issue correct it's not surprising they are backwards in many other moral areas. Catman But I can pretty much guarantee you that Christianity has had a effect on general standards here in the USA for quite a long time but lately people are drifting away from those standards and as a result society is on the decline because of it. "abortion clearly violates the 6th commandment... 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'." I'm guessing you don't hold that standard when it comes to the death penalty as so many Christian conservatives don't seem to.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Feb 6, 2018 14:10:20 GMT
I'm not sure why the concept of original sin implies personhood from conception. It's something we are all born with. It isn't making a conscious choice to sin. It doesn't matter.
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